Stealth Games Don't Have to Be About Killing People
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
Like the idea of that type of game, when I am bored I tend to think about things that could add to certain types of games, extra things such as robotic spy camera's to scout out the area and gather information would be a nice addition (Sneak). Using items (knock out gas) to harmlessly knock out guards to gather the keys or change outfits (the Spy). Or even forging fake identities or acting like an applicant to get a job there (Conman).
I just finished playing through Hitman Absolution, and I enjoyed the fact that it penalized you for needlessly killing civilians, though it was rather forgiving on killing anyone else, as long as you hid the bodies afterward. It also made subduing them considerably harder than just garroting them, due to noise issues. But it did at least try to give you options and make you think twice before stringing up everyone you found out of matters of convenience.
wait just a second, did you say that in the new SLY COOPER game they have you murdering a bunch of guards?! I've never owned a playstation system and never actually played a Sly Cooper game but I was sympathetic towards the series because it's one of those cartoony mascot driven franchises (my favorite genre) on a system that is not well known for them. I always figured Sly was a thief or sportsman, I didn't think that killing was even a thing that he DID, and it really seems messed up to have him doing all that.
Or maybe I'm wrong and Sly has always been a mass murdering sociopath, making me totally wrong for ever thinking the Playstation could make a harmless family friendly game franchise.
Or maybe I'm wrong and Sly has always been a mass murdering sociopath, making me totally wrong for ever thinking the Playstation could make a harmless family friendly game franchise.
So about optional stealth. What about a game where the alternative to stealth is not violence, but flight?
Waiting for your moment to slip through a gap in the shadows can be fairly dull. However, when you're not sure that stealth is the right decision at all, and your window of possible escape from a failed attempt at infiltration is closing by the second, stealth is terrifying. The game should make you want to break and run. That guard is not an obstacle, but rather someone that is going to hunt you down, and you do NOT want to be close to him. Every move your accomplished infiltrator makes in a normal stealth game is a tradeoff here, an exponentially increasing risks that degrades your ability to run away. Sneak vs flight should be a game of chicken. And often there is no way to sneak past, only a stealthy approach and then a well-timed burst of speed. The skilled player will keep his nerve until he can identify that critical moment of changed tactics.
So instead of a stealth game that can turn into an action game, a stealth game that can suddenly turn into a chase game. Like Assassin's Creed, or the teaser trailer for Beyond Good and Evil II. The objective here is getting from point A to point B by any means necessary.
One incarnation this game could take is a wartorn city (think Homs or Aleppo), were the young protagonist has to navigate a bombed-out concrete maze of roadblocks, roving militias, changing frontlines and airstrikes. And in the opening cutscene you get your trigger finger blown off symbolically.
Waiting for your moment to slip through a gap in the shadows can be fairly dull. However, when you're not sure that stealth is the right decision at all, and your window of possible escape from a failed attempt at infiltration is closing by the second, stealth is terrifying. The game should make you want to break and run. That guard is not an obstacle, but rather someone that is going to hunt you down, and you do NOT want to be close to him. Every move your accomplished infiltrator makes in a normal stealth game is a tradeoff here, an exponentially increasing risks that degrades your ability to run away. Sneak vs flight should be a game of chicken. And often there is no way to sneak past, only a stealthy approach and then a well-timed burst of speed. The skilled player will keep his nerve until he can identify that critical moment of changed tactics.
So instead of a stealth game that can turn into an action game, a stealth game that can suddenly turn into a chase game. Like Assassin's Creed, or the teaser trailer for Beyond Good and Evil II. The objective here is getting from point A to point B by any means necessary.
One incarnation this game could take is a wartorn city (think Homs or Aleppo), were the young protagonist has to navigate a bombed-out concrete maze of roadblocks, roving militias, changing frontlines and airstrikes. And in the opening cutscene you get your trigger finger blown off symbolically.
I would play the shit out of that game.
The funny thing about Skyrim, on the other hand, is that most people default to the killing anyway. At the end of the day, you only have to kill a very few beings - three dragons and the draugr carrying the dragonstone. Aaaand maybe a couple more that I've forgotten.
Yeah, same here. I loved that part with Daud, where you could choose to just pick the stuff right out of his pocket and leave, knowing that he'd freak the hell out when he noticed. Well, in real life, anyway.Silly Hats said:
The funny thing about Skyrim, on the other hand, is that most people default to the killing anyway. At the end of the day, you only have to kill a very few beings - three dragons and the draugr carrying the dragonstone. Aaaand maybe a couple more that I've forgotten.
I like thinking how the visual design of the characters would be. I figure the Sneak using something similar to what the Spetnaz use, a camouflaged face mask with nothing more than a pair of holes for the eyes, along with a full camouflaged sniper suit that s/he bought on the internet
The Spy would need to have loose clothes that are easy to remove and hide, something like generic sportswear. A natural actor/actress, s/he forgoes any kind of distinctive characteristics, making him/her something akin to a men in black. "Someone was there, but frankly I can't remember any face".
The Conman is a charming guy/gal, always dressed with impecable style, using suits/dresses that are slightly shabby, giving off the appereance that s/he comes from a party.
Captcha: halp meh
The Spy would need to have loose clothes that are easy to remove and hide, something like generic sportswear. A natural actor/actress, s/he forgoes any kind of distinctive characteristics, making him/her something akin to a men in black. "Someone was there, but frankly I can't remember any face".
The Conman is a charming guy/gal, always dressed with impecable style, using suits/dresses that are slightly shabby, giving off the appereance that s/he comes from a party.
Captcha: halp meh
You can't lie to me, Yahtzee. You already DID make a stealth action game. Not THIS one, but I played The Art of Theft! I played it!
Incidentally, why bother having a "class" system at all? Outside of D&D, I don't see them as fun or interesting when you can have much more organic playstyles in games. Bioshock, as an example, allows for multiple paths to go down even though you're essentially the same dude with the same background. I hardly ever used my guns when I played. I went with wrench first and plasmids later, only using a shotgun for Big Daddies. I still found the game piss-easy on medium difficulty. The game's mechanics allowed me to pursue that route, with upgrades that greatly enhanced the wrench's power, as well as making sneaking an option and sometimes giving my blows a freezing effect.
I'm just saying, class systems are very rigid and outdated to me.
Incidentally, why bother having a "class" system at all? Outside of D&D, I don't see them as fun or interesting when you can have much more organic playstyles in games. Bioshock, as an example, allows for multiple paths to go down even though you're essentially the same dude with the same background. I hardly ever used my guns when I played. I went with wrench first and plasmids later, only using a shotgun for Big Daddies. I still found the game piss-easy on medium difficulty. The game's mechanics allowed me to pursue that route, with upgrades that greatly enhanced the wrench's power, as well as making sneaking an option and sometimes giving my blows a freezing effect.
I'm just saying, class systems are very rigid and outdated to me.
Yeah, like thatajapam said:
The Idea is very nice, to put it simply. A game could be made out of this idea, and if done properly, a fun game it would be, but it would take a looong time and effort to get up from concept to finish production. It has been done before for fan games and freeware, though, so anything is possible if you put the sword to the grindstone. Or we could wait until a triple makes it and... HA, like that's going to happen.
I think the only real impediment to making such a game work is AI (not so much for the first "class", obviously this has already been done successfully).
The other 2 play-styles require either pulling a Gothic and scripting EVERYTHING to the moon and back, which is obviously a major drain on developer resources (both indie and AAA - indies probably won't have the manpower to do it, AAA is still to focused on visuals and wouldn't allocate the resources), though this could make a VERY good game, with very clever oponents
OR
They could come up with actually good, dynamic AI (kinda like Bethesda tried to do with RadiantAI and failed spectacularly). If done properly, this could create a truly amazing game. But I doubt we'll be seeing anything like that any time soon
The other 2 play-styles require either pulling a Gothic and scripting EVERYTHING to the moon and back, which is obviously a major drain on developer resources (both indie and AAA - indies probably won't have the manpower to do it, AAA is still to focused on visuals and wouldn't allocate the resources), though this could make a VERY good game, with very clever oponents
OR
They could come up with actually good, dynamic AI (kinda like Bethesda tried to do with RadiantAI and failed spectacularly). If done properly, this could create a truly amazing game. But I doubt we'll be seeing anything like that any time soon
I'd buy it.
EDIT: Ok, pressed "post" by accident. I was going to give reasons as well. Suffice to say, I think this sounds like a fantastic concept for a game. I wish more games were more strategic and less "walk along the corridor shooting stuff."
EDIT: Ok, pressed "post" by accident. I was going to give reasons as well. Suffice to say, I think this sounds like a fantastic concept for a game. I wish more games were more strategic and less "walk along the corridor shooting stuff."
i love the idea of a pure stealth game where killing is an option but, really, you are awarded for not because the moment the whole household wakes up in the morning everyone will know the best jewelry of the house is gone and so a manhunt/posse is arranged... and every low-life, hobo, etc who lives in the underground of the world you frequent will almost certainly guess the best thief in the area - ie, YOU - will have done it, thus, making your chances of doing another burglary highly unlikely or 1000 times more difficult.
however, some guard who was KO'd by sleeping draft, etc may be too embarassed to admit he nodded off for several hours after a half mug of ale so several days may pass before the lady of the house screams that her maid has stolen her priceless gold 'bridal belt' because she is the only one who knows of its whereabouts. perhaps by then she may realise that a lot more of her 'treasures' have gone missing, and in the intervening time you have had time to rob every other rich sod who's worth robbing from without them ever noticing.
if you murdered a guard/maid/etc during your burglary then it's likely you - being known to the underground of the area - will eventually be snitched upon and you become suspect number 1 who is facing not only aggravated burglary but murder with intent also, which would certainly add a most horrible death penalty to your sentence after sitting in a jail cell for 10 years, eating rats and drinking your own piss to pass the time.
killing people in games is just the lazy way out it seems to me. a REAL thief would've learnt the consequences of the 'Bill Sykes' type of thief [from dickens' 'Oliver Twist'], watched as his body swung in the cold morning breeze, constantly pecked at by crows, ravens & any other animal willing to risk the climb for a tasty titbit of human flesh, and thought, throughout his childhood as an urchin stealing apples and spuds, then on to more lucrative fare, every time he'd been caught he'd have been whacked or chased then forgotten.. but KILLING people?
of course, when there's absolutely no choice? then you'd have to. but you'd make sure to hide the body so it lies hidden for at least a day or two.
ultimately i spose it depends on who you're stealing from but if it's a sandbox game then 'knowing' who you're stealing from is a critically important factor. burglarising the major is risky but well worth it for loot, but kill his servant and, then, a day later, finding out his daughter has gone missing, then found dead.. [so she WASN'T a servant after all?] will certainly have a lot of 'fencers' [fencers are people who often put 'work your way', for those not in the know.. and they do it because they want the loot you're about to steal so you don't spend time popping around every pawn shop asking 'how much will you give me for this diamond encrusted platinum necklace?', looking like an old tramp who found it on the street, but the pawn store owner knows full well you didn't just find it] dubiously glaring at you, wondering if they can get away with selling you out to the law for a tasty reward whilst still only giving you a few coppers for the 'fake' shite you're 'trying to fob off on them'. ie, you have become too hot to handle. you're a dead man walking. and anyone with sense will avoid you like the plague in case they end up hanging from a meathook in the town square.
my final [and, as usual, long winded] point is that 'thieves' are NOT 'assassins'. killing is a fine art [i'm guessing] & tho the skills used for 'killing' & 'thieving' are very similar, it is very easy to forget that a thief has rarely done nothing more violent than clocked someone on the noggin. if he killed that person then he certainly didn't intend to and most likely didn't think anymore about the guy he just accidently killed by crushing his skull with a billiard ball in a sock because he rushed past and ducked out of sight never to be seen again..or something.
but an assassin? well... it's HIS JOB to kill. he probably even enjoys it. taking a human life - and in such an ignoble and often wicked way - is his skill. to leave evidence around to make it look like someone more likely than a hired killer did it is also his job.
when the thief kills, it's likely an accident [and he may just pay the consequences] but when an assassin does it, he has thought about it, planned it, so that nobody would ever think it was planned by an assassin but more likely the person related who's on his will or some such ploy.
more than anything, it'll stop the frigging lazy sods who just barge into quests slaughtering everyone thinking what fun it is and wouldn't it be great if they could walk into the office in the morning and do it to all the bastards on £200k a year on the floor upstairs!
i fank yew i fank yew
however, some guard who was KO'd by sleeping draft, etc may be too embarassed to admit he nodded off for several hours after a half mug of ale so several days may pass before the lady of the house screams that her maid has stolen her priceless gold 'bridal belt' because she is the only one who knows of its whereabouts. perhaps by then she may realise that a lot more of her 'treasures' have gone missing, and in the intervening time you have had time to rob every other rich sod who's worth robbing from without them ever noticing.
if you murdered a guard/maid/etc during your burglary then it's likely you - being known to the underground of the area - will eventually be snitched upon and you become suspect number 1 who is facing not only aggravated burglary but murder with intent also, which would certainly add a most horrible death penalty to your sentence after sitting in a jail cell for 10 years, eating rats and drinking your own piss to pass the time.
killing people in games is just the lazy way out it seems to me. a REAL thief would've learnt the consequences of the 'Bill Sykes' type of thief [from dickens' 'Oliver Twist'], watched as his body swung in the cold morning breeze, constantly pecked at by crows, ravens & any other animal willing to risk the climb for a tasty titbit of human flesh, and thought, throughout his childhood as an urchin stealing apples and spuds, then on to more lucrative fare, every time he'd been caught he'd have been whacked or chased then forgotten.. but KILLING people?
of course, when there's absolutely no choice? then you'd have to. but you'd make sure to hide the body so it lies hidden for at least a day or two.
ultimately i spose it depends on who you're stealing from but if it's a sandbox game then 'knowing' who you're stealing from is a critically important factor. burglarising the major is risky but well worth it for loot, but kill his servant and, then, a day later, finding out his daughter has gone missing, then found dead.. [so she WASN'T a servant after all?] will certainly have a lot of 'fencers' [fencers are people who often put 'work your way', for those not in the know.. and they do it because they want the loot you're about to steal so you don't spend time popping around every pawn shop asking 'how much will you give me for this diamond encrusted platinum necklace?', looking like an old tramp who found it on the street, but the pawn store owner knows full well you didn't just find it] dubiously glaring at you, wondering if they can get away with selling you out to the law for a tasty reward whilst still only giving you a few coppers for the 'fake' shite you're 'trying to fob off on them'. ie, you have become too hot to handle. you're a dead man walking. and anyone with sense will avoid you like the plague in case they end up hanging from a meathook in the town square.
my final [and, as usual, long winded] point is that 'thieves' are NOT 'assassins'. killing is a fine art [i'm guessing] & tho the skills used for 'killing' & 'thieving' are very similar, it is very easy to forget that a thief has rarely done nothing more violent than clocked someone on the noggin. if he killed that person then he certainly didn't intend to and most likely didn't think anymore about the guy he just accidently killed by crushing his skull with a billiard ball in a sock because he rushed past and ducked out of sight never to be seen again..or something.
but an assassin? well... it's HIS JOB to kill. he probably even enjoys it. taking a human life - and in such an ignoble and often wicked way - is his skill. to leave evidence around to make it look like someone more likely than a hired killer did it is also his job.
when the thief kills, it's likely an accident [and he may just pay the consequences] but when an assassin does it, he has thought about it, planned it, so that nobody would ever think it was planned by an assassin but more likely the person related who's on his will or some such ploy.
more than anything, it'll stop the frigging lazy sods who just barge into quests slaughtering everyone thinking what fun it is and wouldn't it be great if they could walk into the office in the morning and do it to all the bastards on £200k a year on the floor upstairs!
i fank yew i fank yew
I personally would love a stealth game where fighting back is easily one of the dumbest options you could do. There's really no reason to be stealthy in games like Assassin's Creed, Deus Ex, or even Splinter Cell and Hitman when you realize that it's easier and, in some cases, faster and more efficient to simply say, "Fuck that." and start murdering everything in the immediate vicinity.
While I still think that killing people should be an important element in stealth games, as sometimes it's better to simply off the amount of walking "Intruder alerts" rather than try and memorize all of their predetermined paths, they should make it where making any kind of worthwhile progression involves some element of stealth.
While I still think that killing people should be an important element in stealth games, as sometimes it's better to simply off the amount of walking "Intruder alerts" rather than try and memorize all of their predetermined paths, they should make it where making any kind of worthwhile progression involves some element of stealth.
Dear Yahtzee,
Shut up and take my money.
Really, though, your game idea sounds amazing and I would love to play it. Some days I like playing games where you just dive in a pile of enemies and commit wholesale slaughter. Other days, I enjoy a game where the idea is to go as far as you can without laying a finger on anyone. What you have described sounds like the game that I would choose to play on those other days. You should totally get a Kickstarter going.
Shut up and take my money.
Really, though, your game idea sounds amazing and I would love to play it. Some days I like playing games where you just dive in a pile of enemies and commit wholesale slaughter. Other days, I enjoy a game where the idea is to go as far as you can without laying a finger on anyone. What you have described sounds like the game that I would choose to play on those other days. You should totally get a Kickstarter going.
Agreed. This held up until the end of the game, when you were so super powerful that you could wail on on the guards with your super staff quite easily. But for those first couple of stealth missions, getting caught out in the open was scary as shit.skylog said:
OT: Once again, Yahtzee pitches an idea that I would gladly shell out some cash for. A pure stealth game has a ton of potential, especially since it's practically never been done before.
This was my initial feeling, but after a bit more thought I'm not sure it actually makes much sense. After all, what happens in a straight shooter? If you screw up, you get shot, die, then start over and play the same segment for the twelfth time. In a stealth game if you screw up, you get seen, caught, then start over and play the same segment for the twelfth time. There's really no functional difference between the two, and the same applies to any game style and any genre. Any game that actually penalises you for failure and forces you to get things right before you can progress is functionally the same. The only difference with stealth is that we've got so used to being able to shoot our way out that it feels odd to have that option taken away, especially when that only seems to happen at a couple of arbitrary points in a game that usually lets you get away with shooting. A game dedicated to stealth in which shooting your way out was never an option wouldn't have that problem.SlightlyEvil said:
It's also worth noting that Thief already did this to a certain extent. While you were often able to take guards out in advance, your ability to actually fight back when found was very limited so failing at stealth usually meant reloading and trying again.
People that complain about "stealth games":
You can play any of your hundreds of "Non-stealth games". There are less than a dozen "decent" stealth games... in all of gaming history.
Yet more of what I like to call -- "Genre Discrimination". Stealth and Survival Horror are the only two genres expected to "go away" or "evolve into something else". The past 5 years, there have been maybe two or three survival horror games, true to the genre.
Most stealth games today take the "optional" route, like Deus Ex or Dishonored. Both great games, but because they allow for either action or stealth, the gameplay suffers a bit. The way the AI is presented i.e. - is not as good as it could be if the game was completely stealth focused.
You can play any of your hundreds of "Non-stealth games". There are less than a dozen "decent" stealth games... in all of gaming history.
Yet more of what I like to call -- "Genre Discrimination". Stealth and Survival Horror are the only two genres expected to "go away" or "evolve into something else". The past 5 years, there have been maybe two or three survival horror games, true to the genre.
Most stealth games today take the "optional" route, like Deus Ex or Dishonored. Both great games, but because they allow for either action or stealth, the gameplay suffers a bit. The way the AI is presented i.e. - is not as good as it could be if the game was completely stealth focused.
Oh god the Spy.. I'd absolutely love a chance in an infiltration mission to simply get myself hired by my target and act as a sleeper agent. It always just seemed like the safest and cost-effective solution in this sort of thing. If admittedly slow.
I've noticed a fair few people talking about a Spy being a suited confident looking fellow, akin to Hitman with some clothing swapping here and there. But would that necessarily be the norm? Dressing up as a janitor or blue-collar worker would make you just as effectively invisible as the businessman, and indeed be entirely normal when walking into the maintenance areas of a building. Both have their advantages and disadvantages for a target area. People will raise an eyebrow at the cleaner at a computer, but would do the same to the suit fiddling with the fuseboxes.
A thought though, lockpicking, pickpocketing and hacking seem to be useful to every class choice, would we see some kind of secondary skill set like Professions in this hypothetical game? A Sneaker will clearly want hacking and lockpicking for unhindered access, but the Conman would likely appreciate hacking and pickpocketing for keys and information.
Either way, Yahtzee you've done it again. Made me realise just what I'm missing in today's gaming industry. You bugger.
I've noticed a fair few people talking about a Spy being a suited confident looking fellow, akin to Hitman with some clothing swapping here and there. But would that necessarily be the norm? Dressing up as a janitor or blue-collar worker would make you just as effectively invisible as the businessman, and indeed be entirely normal when walking into the maintenance areas of a building. Both have their advantages and disadvantages for a target area. People will raise an eyebrow at the cleaner at a computer, but would do the same to the suit fiddling with the fuseboxes.
A thought though, lockpicking, pickpocketing and hacking seem to be useful to every class choice, would we see some kind of secondary skill set like Professions in this hypothetical game? A Sneaker will clearly want hacking and lockpicking for unhindered access, but the Conman would likely appreciate hacking and pickpocketing for keys and information.
Either way, Yahtzee you've done it again. Made me realise just what I'm missing in today's gaming industry. You bugger.