Stealth

[rddj623]

Great stuff Mr. Croshaw. As per usual. I think you bring up the whole "games and movies are different and we shouldn't be trying to make them the same" point in a nice blunt well formulated way. Maybe people will get it this time...maybe I'm a dreamer.

 

[gazz567]

It's an interesting point well made, if done in an extremely blunt way. My point would be that maybe a freedom fighter game would be possible. Whereby evasion and stealth are your starting focus, by dwindling numbers of the evil power (clichéd I know) and eventually getting enough support to start taking groups on directly. Although having reread the beginning of my second sentence trying to get that idea to fly in the current 'War on Terror' is about as likely as me being locked in a room with whoever though Wii Music was a good idea.

 

[Guffe]

The down right corner box were neither are attacking if concidering games, how about the Harvest Moon searies? or did I misunderstand something when it came to the box/triangel?

 

[sampedestal]

Alright, people, listen. I don't think anyone's talked about the one three-act game that I can think of--Homeworld!
Think about it. The first bunch of missions are you fleeing the Taiidan's overwhelming forces. But even as you're doing that, you're very slowly and painstakingly building frigates and bomber wings (or Defender screens). Throughout this, your main goal is to get to your homeworld, while not dying. In fact, plenty of 'win' conditions are actually "escape the battlefield with as many intact ships as possible". It's a survival RTS.
Then, as soon as you have a balanced (albeit small) fleet, Act II begins, and you're taking out Taiidan outposts like the Supernova Station or entering the derelict graveyard. This is the stealth part of the game--it's not really stealth, but the enemy AI won't trigger until it sees you, and taking it head on is suicide. The Supernova Station is particularly good at this--there are plenty of paths, but you absolutely have to find the weak point and you absolutely should keep your forces hidden until you're in a strategically advantageous position. Again, you have a fleet, but if that Taiidan fleet came right at you, you're dead.
But then, several missions and a lot of salvage corvettes later, you have a large fleet. This starts with that level where there is a sphere of around 250 ion frigates for you to destroy/steal, and all levels after that. This is Act III. I've had trouble explaining to people who haven't played the game why Homeworld is so satisfying, and now I know why. It's definitely because it adheres to this tight, well-proven plot structure. It doesn't give you the tools to fight an obnoxious enemy until the last third, but when it does, you know exactly what to do. And the fights have more purpose than any other RTS I've played--those Taiidan have been after me the whole game, but now finally I have a chance to throw a punch (and then some).
Since I first played it back in the day, I've felt that Homeworld told the best story of any video game, and I think now I know why.

 

[Spacelord]

Where does Portal fit into the conflict triangle? Also doesn't Portal's story fit quite neatly into the three-act framework?

 

[ChristovR]

When reading your description of a three act game, one that came to mind that fits is Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth. Early on you have to sneak (and sometimes run for your life) while at other times you can go in guns blazing.

 

[Clunks]

Only stealth game I ever really liked was In Cold Blood. It's sort of half an adventure game - I think it's creator was one of the ones behind the Broken Sword series - and there's a healthy emphasis on having to think, rather than blast your way out of situations. It also had good writing, which is a rare enough quality in video games to be worth mentioning at every available opportunity.

 

[Danpascooch]

I would really like to see more whole games based around the "evasion" part of it.

You know, like Mirror's Edge, except they don't make you want to cut yourself.

But in my perfect evasion game, it would be about 75% running, and 25% "you just got lucky there's only one guy in this room time to kick his ass" gameplay.

That way you could make a more realistic game (not that that's particular important, but it'd be a nice breath of fresh air) where your character CAN'T take on ten machine gun toting guys at once (IMAGINE THAT!) but would have to flee.

It could be a game where you would be rewarded for using the environment around you, but it wouldn't be required, for example, you just ran through a door, it's a waiting room with a receptionist desk, and another hallway leading out, if you think fast, you can push the desk in front of the door and buy yourself a 10-15 second lead on the guys behind you while they bust through, but again not required.

 

[Danpascooch]

Where does Portal fit into the conflict triangle? Also doesn't Portal's story fit quite neatly into the three-act framework?

Portal fit's into the "enemy causing conflict you not causing conflict" corner, until the end where it becomes direct "I want Glados dead she wants me dead" showdown.

Remember, the attack doesn't necessarily have to be combat, and the thing in the box doesn't ALWAYS apply (IE Portal isn't stealth)

 

[MortisLegio]

I would like to see a game use all 3 corners

 

[beema]

I agree about splinter cell from a conceptual perspective: it's too damn linear. Half the fun in a stealth game is figuring out all the different ways to navigate around the enemy, and approach your objective. Hitman had it, Thief had it, and to a slightly lesser extent Metal Gear had it. Even Arkham Asylum has it more than Splinter Cell.

On the other hand, I thought splinter cell's control scheme and stealth game-mechanics were top notch and executed more smoothly and intuitively than any other stealth game I've played. If those could be combined with the openness factor, it would be great.

 

[DayDark]

Oddly, some of the best stealth I ever saw was in a game that didn't force you to use it...

This is basically what I've come to acknowledge for myself as well, as soon as I have to do it, it's like it stops being as fun as opposed to if I chose it.

This is why I love the Hitman series, I can be a psychotic maniac, or a ghost, and both are equally fun to experience.

 

[VonBrewskie]

Did you enjoy the first two Tenchu games on the PSone? The stealth element was pretty good for its time. You were truly rewarded for performing a kill quietly. (I never used the extra crap. OK, so maybe I tossed a few poisoned rice balls.)

 

[Laggings]

In a way, I feel a game that involved all three "corners" and made them work really well together was Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee (and also its follower Abe's Exoddus, but not so much due to the added quicksave-option). The enemies from the beginning didn't get stronger, the situations just got trickier, and they always kept that same ominous feel about them. You got to sneak right behind them, hide in the shadows, and sometimes if you were up for it, you could also lure them to follow you with a blatant "Hello" and the running away like mad. It's quite old and was only 2D and all but it was pretty intense in that respect. Had a good sense of humor too.

 

[Sad Panda 46]

Hitman had it right. You are a bald guy who no one really likes and you need to kill for money, but how did Splinter Cell Conviction mess it up. I haven't played it and I will get it but it doesn't look like its going to grab me.

 

[k-ossuburb]

Stealth games need to focus on psychological warfare. not that it hasn't been attempted. a game in which you sneak around tearing out throats shooting some dudes and disappear into a shadow until you find more of your other victims buddies to brutally kill. now what if every time they saw a body they would instead of uttering "There is a body here, I'll be cautious from now on." but instead reacted with a bit of shock and fear. I want to see a game where you can kill someone leaving blood spattered up the walls and then take the body and hide it in the rafters. I'd like to have an enemy arrive and see blood and lack of a body and move in closer to investigate, then while he searches to drop the body behind him. he would react as we all would and run away screaming and blubbering.
this may say more about me than it does about gaming but I promise I am not a serial killer of and shape sort or description.

This guy right here.

What you've described there is an idea for a game I'd personally love to play, where you can use fear an intimidation in lieu of direct combat.

I think this approach would work well for the Alien missions in Aliens VS Predator but any other inhuman, unarmed monster it would be fine too. It would also be better in that same first person view but in a sandbox environment, even scarier if it was a recognizable place like a well-known city. A vampire on the streets of Paris being an obvious example.

OT: If Yahtzee likes stealth then I'd be surprised if he gave Naughty Bear a miss, it's basically Hitman with teddy bears, it looks hilarious but a little clunky there's lots of stuff there to rip on; it's pretty much cannon fodder.

 

[JoshGod]

you said mixing game styles would be rubbish. well AC2 does it. you sneak around with your hidden blade. then there are fighting gaurd moments. and escaping gaurd moments. all 3 combined. and it generally scored highly. you can even do nothing (tea party).

 

[jpariury]

My favorite stealth game moments were in the first Rogue Spear game. I hated the main mission set-up and deploy portions of the game, but the stealth missions where you had to sneak into a location, turn off security, get some important document, and get out without being seen or killing anyone were top-notch, in my opinion.

I had moments of running into a house, ducking into a room, and then closing myself off in a room, only to have the guard hear the noise, open the door to the room I was in, and have a looksy while I hid behind the opened door. Good fun.

 

[Nohra]

"But conflict can be more than just two knuckleheads taking pot shots at each from either side of a disused warehouse."

But Richard Nixon: A Crisis in Cuba isn't due out for another ten years.

 

[CAW4]

I have to (completely) disagree with your belief about the Splinter Cell Series as a whole. While yes, this (and arguably the last as well), have been watered down into shoot guys in head, move, you don't have to play it that way, and the games before it were even stealthier. In Chaos theory, you were almost exclusively told to go complete stealth or use hand to hand less than lethal moves, and so much as killing someone would lower your score. I still remember, on the third level of Chaos Theory, when I finally got through it with no guards alerted, or even disabled, and still got 100% complete on the mission. It made you use stealth and cunning, and while it didn't force you to do it, and you could run and gun, it was much more satisfying to use shadows, ambient noise and distractions to go past as many guards as you could non-violently. And that idea of working harder for the (personal) achievement (that's right, just because you don't get a new bit of text showing off what you did doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it) even carries over to Conviction. Try going through a level without mark and execute (when there are two guards that are talking you can do a manual M&E if you're fast enough, or get close and do a shoot and melee), or even try going through it without using your gun at all (best on Kobin's mansion, as if you don't take out your gun you get to see some awesome melee kills that you wouldn't see otherwise, and it's even possible on Realistic difficulty).