Steam, banning players for being generous?

[Lonan]

 

[Gudrests]

well...they could just make it so you cant gift to other countries....that would solve the problem.

 

[Fleischer]

He is not doing anything wrong and if there is nothing in the terms and conditions then it should be fine, I would also point the blame on steam for allowing people to gift to other regions.

From the "Charges to Your Credit Card" section of the Steam Terms of Service:

If your use of Steam is subject to any type of use or sales tax, then Valve may also charge you for any such taxes, in addition to the Subscription or other fees published in the Rules of Use. The European Union VAT ( ?VAT ?) tax amounts collected by Valve reflect VAT due on the value of any Software or Subscription as well as import VAT collected which is to be paid to the tax authorities for the importation of Merchandise.

amergift gifted the game, and then received payments for these "gifted" games. He created a system where people could avoid their government's taxes. In doing this, he committed a crime.

 

[Godhead]

http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

If I skimmed through this and am wrong please forgive me as I'm very sick. But I'm pretty sure that what this guy did was illegal. When you purchase a game from steam Valve grants you a product license that grants you unlimited playing time and full access to the game as long as you do not tamper with anything that might constitute hacking or any other illegal modification of the game. Although since it's a product license you do not actually own the game, but Valve does. Which might be why a lot of gamers don't like Steam.

Edit: I think I forgot to mention that the guy was reselling the game that wasn't legally his thereby bringing the banhammer on himself.

 

[Fleischer]

That is kind of ridiculous, I suppose they count it as importing without import tax but Steam should really make it clearer in the ToS because I can imagine a fair amount of people will do this and get banned.

Shudder, the thought of losing access to my Steam games, not cool bro.

This issue is covered in the "Charges of Your Credit Card" section of Steam's ToS:

If your use of Steam is subject to any type of use or sales tax, then Valve may also charge you for any such taxes, in addition to the Subscription or other fees published in the Rules of Use. The European Union VAT ( ?VAT ?) tax amounts collected by Valve reflect VAT due on the value of any Software or Subscription as well as import VAT collected which is to be paid to the tax authorities for the importation of Merchandise.

Although, I will admit it's hard as hell to read through those lengthy contracts.

 

[Rad Party God]

Even though I'm pro Steam, that sounds just horrible. I once asked a US friend to buy a game for me as it wasn't available in my country, right now it's available, but not back then and it was at a very cheap sale.

I don't think it's all true, something is missing here.

 

[Staskala]

VAT also applies to electronical commerce, so I honestly don't get the problem.

In fact, it rises questions about the legitimate way of using the gift system:
When gifting a foreign steam user, does Valve pay the VAT?
The American user pays the American price and a European user gets the game for free, so where does the VAT go?
Unless I'm missing something it has to be paid by the distributor.

If so, the ban is not only legally but also morally justified, since Valve would have to pay for your "generousity".

Do you pay the VAT when purchasing something in the US and then mailing it to someone in the EU? Didn't think so, you're only paying import fees.

I may not like how digital goods are treated the same as tangible goods when it comes to taxes, but it's how things work, and the law is pretty clear. I will admit that Valve could do a bit better in informing customers about gifting and the restrictions that surround it.

Still, the guy in the OP is definitely in the wrong.

I wouldn't know about other nations (we are talking about Europe however), but here VAT and import fees (on digital goods) are both 19%, so your point is rather moot.

 

[Denamic]

Ok, one of you heartless fiends is lying to me.

Steam ban = Universal ban for forever.
VAC ban = Inability to access VAC secured servers.
Cheating online won't cost you your games.
You'll just never play on the good servers again.

 

[Fleischer]

Its a grey area, a loop whole, in this time when everything is getting dearer this is a way to legally get something cheaper without waiting for sales. Also all the relivent tax is payed for in the transaction, and you got to admit it is better than downloading the game for free.

I do concede that these people are paying for the games, not pirating them. In must note in my next breath that the relevant taxes were not being payed for.

Its is the same as me going over to France and picking up cheap boose and fags to bring back, or me picking up the goods for someone else, both are legal and fine as long as you are within your limits for going over the border this is essentially the same but without the travelling.

It is NOT the same thing. Let me give an example from your former colony, my limey friend:

I live in state A (with large taxes on cigarettes, among other things) and the neighboring state B prides itself on having minimal sales tax. If I drive to state B, buy some smokes I'm technically breaking the law, but this isn't a case where I would realistically be prosecuted; however, if I took those cigarettes, which I bought a lower price due to lower taxes, and resold them at a price that is lower than the prices in state A's stores, it'd be minutes before I'd have the State Troopers kicking in my door.

 

[Jaeriko]

I noticed a lot of people early on in this thread and on pages 2/3 were ignoring that fact that he is SELLING the games.

This is a critical aspect. While he is selling it for the exact price of the game (therefore, making no profit and truly doing this out of the kindness of his or her heart; which I applaud him/her for), the person is still selling something that IS NOT THEIRS TO SELL, essentially paying to play the game but not to the rights for it's ownership(this is how I see it, and I may very well be wrong).

Then there's the tax evasion angle, which is completely different and much more obviously objectionable practice that clearly puts Valve in the right in this situation. They are, in effect, covering their own asses in case of a law suit or banning by the governments whose taxes are being circumvented.

Also, if they took away the ability to gift, you would have many people unable to receive uncensored games (like those in Germany or Australia or whatever) nor would you be able to take advantage of the holiday sales and get friends gifts at lower prices. I don't think anyone wants that to happen and I hope people think more on it before suggesting that any more.

 

[Fleischer]

well...they could just make it so you cant gift to other countries....that would solve the problem.

This is true. Value has left giving across regions. If people like amergift abuse the system, then it will be changed. If European governments send notice that they are worried about people using the gifting system to avoid VAT, then we can kiss cross region steam gifting goodbye. One or two dicks can ruin the situation for everyone else. :\

 

[Chibz]

I noticed a lot of people early on in this thread and on pages 2/3 were ignoring that fact that he is SELLING the games.

Actually, he isn't. He's purchasing the game on their behalf. There's a subtle difference here.

 

[Antari]

Incorrect. If you transfer goods from one region - whether it be a state in a nation or internationally, and you sell those goods to another entity, you are legally bound to collect the tax appropriate value of the goods and then deliver that money to the government. It doesn't matter whether you are working with physical merchandise or digital licenses. In either case, you would be committing tax evasion.

Not necessarily. Export is definitely not taxed (that's why duty-free shops can exist on airports) and import into the European Union is free from all taxes and custom charges if the price of the goods is under 25 Eur. So no law has been broken.

That's why when I (in EU) buy a Steam game, it's usually tax-free, unless the price is over this limit. So there's even less reason for the difference in prices.

Thats when YOU bring the product over the border. In this case Steam is delivering it to you, the border is looking at them, and niether of you is standing in the duty free zone. They are responsible for those taxes.

 

[Jewrean]

It is because of this corporate greed / illogical bullshit that most non-Americans usually resort to piracy. Seriously, fuck game companies or whomever decides to bump up the price of a game by a factor of 2. They deserve to have their shit pirated. The ones making the decision to bump up the prices so much I mean.

 

[MyFooThurTS]

If it was due to currency conversion, why would they ban me? Just some food for thought...

Given that the Australian Dollar is currently worth more than the American Dollar it's clear that the price difference has nothing to do with currency conversion.
It's just that they can get away with a certain price and, with that in evidence, what do you expect them to do?

 

[bushwhacker2k]

I can't really justify it either way, but I think it's a fairly reasonably idea.

How would a person from another country fe- oh, right, Yahtzee, we already know how someone getting the short end of the stick for being in a different country feels.

 

[Fleischer]

Incorrect. If you transfer goods from one region - whether it be a state in a nation or internationally, and you sell those goods to another entity, you are legally bound to collect the tax appropriate value of the goods and then deliver that money to the government. It doesn't matter whether you are working with physical merchandise or digital licenses. In either case, you would be committing tax evasion.

Not necessarily. Export is definitely not taxed (that's why duty-free shops can exist on airports) and import into the European Union is free from all taxes and custom charges if the price of the goods is under 25 Eur. So no law has been broken.

That's why when I (in EU) buy a Steam game, it's usually tax-free, unless the price is over this limit. So there's even less reason for the difference in prices.

Hmmm...I wasn't aware of the policy that imports below 24 Euros were tax exempt. I learned something on my day off - SWEET! Thanks.

The only thing that has not been followed properly here are the Valve rules. And even here, it's questionable whether Valve can just invalidate potentially hundreds of dollars worth of purchases (the games in the banned account) without any judge of jury. In some European countries (I think Spain and Norway, maybe others), this Valve rule would be invalid by default and enforcing this rule would actually be breaking the law.

One more time on the tax and customs issue: Any import under 25 EUR is tax-fee. No tax law has been broken.

I am curious at to how much those games he "gifted" for payment totaled up to. Perhaps Value took action because the total amount of money was well over 25 Euros.

I'm too tired to scan through the Steam ToS at this point; however, if you screw up one provision of game ToS contracts, you can get boned out of your game. Personally, I think they should reinstate his Steam account, if he agrees to aide Value in avoiding any aggro from European governments. A small apology is in order.

 

[Zer_]

Incorrect. If you transfer goods from one region - whether it be a state in a nation or internationally, and you sell those goods to another entity, you are legally bound to collect the tax appropriate value of the goods and then deliver that money to the government. It doesn't matter whether you are working with physical merchandise or digital licenses. In either case, you would be committing tax evasion.

Not necessarily. Export is definitely not taxed (that's why duty-free shops can exist on airports) and import into the European Union is free from all taxes and custom charges if the price of the goods is under 25 Eur. So no law has been broken.

That's why when I (in EU) buy a Steam game, it's usually tax-free, unless the price is over this limit. So there's even less reason for the difference in prices.

Hmmm...I wasn't aware of the policy that imports below 24 Euros were tax exempt. I learned something on my day off - SWEET! Thanks.

The only thing that has not been followed properly here are the Valve rules. And even here, it's questionable whether Valve can just invalidate potentially hundreds of dollars worth of purchases (the games in the banned account) without any judge of jury. In some European countries (I think Spain and Norway, maybe others), this Valve rule would be invalid by default and enforcing this rule would actually be breaking the law.

One more time on the tax and customs issue: Any import under 25 EUR is tax-fee. No tax law has been broken.

I am curious at to how much those games he "gifted" for payment totaled up to. Perhaps Value took action because the total amount of money was well over 25 Euros.

I'm too tired to scan through the Steam ToS at this point; however, if you screw up one provision of game ToS contracts, you can get boned out of your game. Personally, I think they should reinstate his Steam account, if he agrees to aide Value in avoiding any aggro from European governments. A small apology is in order.

A lot of games cost more than 25 EUR I'm sure.

 

[Antari]

Thats when YOU bring the product over the border. In this case Steam is delivering it to you, the border is looking at them, and niether of you is standing in the duty free zone. They are responsible for those taxes.

Either I don't understand what you're saying, or you're wrong. If I receive a product from abroad (import) which is over the tax/customs limit, it's solely my responsibility to pay the tax and customs. Valve is making this easier for the buyers by providing the service of collecting that tax and diverting it to the local government. But it's not really their responsibility. Plus in this case, Valve wasn't exporting anything - that guy who was reselling the game was the exporter and he has no responsibility either.

You are a private citizen. They are a business. They have to follow much stricter laws concerning importing and exporting.

The games are activated on steam, accessed from the EU to the USA through steam. Even if he exported them, the governments see Steam as the exporter because it realistically owns the product as per the EULA.

In this case, Gifts. Most private citizen tax laws allow gifts up to a certain value, or within a reasonable classification of gift or inheritance. In this case he was "gifting" games to around 20 people, on a regular basis, that'll add up quickly (average out how many steam games you and your friends own). Not just during holidays and birthdays. When Steam submits its tax information to the EU at the end of it all, the EU will see that its more than a simple "gift" arrangement. Because either way both parts of the transaction are on Steam's records, regardless of what payment method was used. At that point the EU would no longer allow them to be classified as Gifts, and tax them.

 

[Antari]

You are a private citizen. They are a business. They have to follow much stricter laws concerning importing and exporting.

The games are activated on steam, accessed from the EU to the USA through steam. Even if he exported them, the governments see Steam as the exporter because it realistically owns the product as per the EULA.

In this case, Gifts. Most private citizen tax laws allow gifts up to a certain value, or within a reasonable classification of gift or inheritance. In this case he was "gifting" games to around 20 people, on a regular basis, that'll add up quickly (average out how many steam games you and your friends own). Not just during holidays and birthdays. When Steam submits its tax information to the EU at the end of it all, the EU will see that its more than a simple "gift" arrangement. Because either way both parts of the transaction are on Steam's records, regardless of what payment method was used. At that point the EU would no longer allow them to be classified as Gifts, and tax them.

Actually until I went out of business at the end of last year, I was a business and I dealt with customs a lot of times.

Anyway, you're right that the fact that Valve officially 'owns' those games complicates matters a little, but actually not really. Valve has sold those games to a US citizen; they don't need to care one bit about what he done with them. Valve can easily prove who they sold the goods to, who they received the payment from and that they pay the taxes from these sales to the US government (because it's no export). Valve is legally out of this.

Also, their EULA doesn't affect the matter of international taxes - they may still 'own' the property per EULA, but they still made the sale to the US citizen and that US citizen made a sale to a EU citizen.

The only people who should deal with taxes are the people who received those gifts (the buyers in the EU) and that's only if the summary of any one 'gift' they received is valued higher than 22 Eur.

And you know, nobody really cares about such small tax evasion. I casually receive packages from outside EU, clearly marked as not gifts with high values, and I still receive them without any customs notification. Of course, if I wish to enter those purchases into my expenses, I need to contact the customs myself.

Ya thats pretty much where I stopped thinking about the whole situation once it hit the ownership part. But that would give Valve an escape route if it ever came down to it. I would think with Steam's high profile it would atleast make them fairly cautious about this sort of thing though. And ya even in this case it wouldn't amount to a huge amount of tax, but if he'd been in business for a few more years it would have woken someone up eventually.

Either way its a Robin Hood sort of generosity hes going for. He can't expect the Sheriff to sit by and do nothing, whoever happens to be the Sheriff at that moment.