Stormcloaks are too mainstream.

[Soods]

Does anyone know if you can go neutral? Or join the Empire and then talk them into fighting the Dominion?

You don't HAVE TO join either of them, if that's what you mean. And even if you join one, the other one will not treat you as hostile.

 

[elvor0]

I went with them originally because I thought that they were just rebelling against oppression, it wasn't until further into the story I realised they were essentially a bunch of racists, and causing more of the problems than they were helping which actually made me feel uncomfortable, unfortunately there was no way to defect to the Imperials, which meant I had to reload to earlier in the game.

Plus I discovered Colonel Tigh is the leader of the Imperials and I can't turn that down, the only thing that would make it more awesome would be if Adama voiced the Emperor.

 

[BoTTeNBReKeR]

I haven't yet decided, but after spending around 40 hours in Skyrim, I'm more inclined to go with the Empire. Ulfric just seems like a power hungry guy who is waging this war for his own personal gain while disguising it to the people as some sort of holy war to restore Talos worship.

Beside that, I read in one of those Aldmeri journals they have had contact with Ulfric aswell, even that it'd be possible to meet him in person to discuss certain affairs in case of emergency.

So, thus far the only thing the Empire has going against it is they tried to cut my head off, but then again, I was caught in an ambush with Stormcloak rebels...

 

[Matthew Valkanov]

Personally I go the way of the Stormcloaks because they're fighting to keep their identity, though oftimes to uncomfortable extremes(I'm still pondering whether to join them just because I don't want to get rid of Jarl Baalgruf, MY Jarl!). One thing many people have been saying is that the Empire would be the "better" choice since a united Empire would have more of a chance of standing against the Aldmer Dominion. In response to this I would like to point out several things, all written out on the Elder Scrolls wiki pages for each province:

-Hammerfell is no longer part of the Empire, have beaten off the Aldmer, and probably have no wish to join the Empire ever again.
-Morrowind is no longer a functioning Dunmer region, having been invaded by Argonians and gone through political and natural disasters. Most Dunmer have fled either to Solstheim or Skyrim.
-Elsweyr and the Black Marsh have both declared independance.
-Orsinium in the Fourth Era no longer exists, due to war with High Rock and Hammerfell, and many Orcs have fled to Skyrim.
-Valenwood and Summerset Isle are part of the Aldmer Domain
-High Rock I couldn't find anything clearly stating whether or not they are still part of the Empire

So this means that the Empire is Cyrodiil, Skyrim and possibly High Rock. Not exactly what I would call a "united Empire" in the first place. Skyrim would be better off making an alliance with High Rock or Hammerfell, despite past grievances(still better relations than those they have with anyone else on the continent at this point).

 

[C.H.A.L.E.T.]

I can't remember what quest it is, but at one point you're told that even though Talos worship was officially outlawed nobody really gave that much of a damn. People still had little private shrines in their homes but the Thalmor weren't doing a whole lot of damage. Then Ulfric had his tantrum about it and made the outlaw on Talos worship one of the main tenants, suddenly the Thalmor start much, much, more actively purging the 'heresy', storming into peoples homes, etc. Good job.

You can sort of see where Ulfric comes from, but at the same time what is the point in the rebellion? All he is doing is weakening Skyrim for the coming war with the Dominion and somehow I think life under them as what are basicly slaves is going to be much worse than a part of the Empire. His argument when you first meet him is that the Empire sent soldiers in the Imperial Legion who were from Skyrim to fight the Dominion. Err, yeah, how terrible they fought against an enemy that would come into Skyrim and enslave them? How dare they?

From the truce quest Ulfric just acted like one massive man child, threatening to walk out if his every whim was not met. At least General Tillius is actually willing to see reason and is 'relatively' accepting of losing Markarth (and getting Riften) if it will help the treaty process along.

 

[Outcast107]

I can't remember what quest it is, but at one point you're told that even though Talos worship was officially worshipped nobody really gave that much of a damn. People still had little private shrines in their homes but the Thalmor weren't doing a whole lot of damage. Then Ulfric had his tantrum about it and made the outlaw on Talos worship one of the main tenants, suddenly the Thalmor start much, much, more actively purging the 'heresy', storming into peoples homes, etc.

But the thing is the Empire was suppose to keep it outlaw. Sure yeah, they can have private shrines but what would have happen if The Thalmor knew about that? cause I'm pretty sure they would have done the same thing if they found out that the people of the Empire knew about it.

How is worshiping your god in secret any way to live? It still not right no matter what anyone says. Talos is part of the nine divine and earn this godhood. Fuck the elfs and trying to get rid of him just because "he a mere human." If anything the Thalmor are the biggest racist here.

 

[Mycroft Holmes]

They tried to kill you at the beginning of the game. Why in Gods name would you side with a group of people who go, uh we haven't accused this guy of anything and he seems to have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time... what should we do with him? Execute him! Executions solve everything.

1) The White-Gold concordat will surely be broken soon, and it will not be long before war with the Ald'meri Dominion resurfaces. If the Stormcloaks take hold of Skyrim, how can they even hope to defend themselves? The Ald'meri Dominion are an incredibly powerful force, how is a team of rag tag rebels ever going to defend Skyrim, especially after having just emerged from such a costly war?

Either Imperial diplomats are the worst diplomats ever in any fantasy or real life setting and time period that has ever been, or the empire lost the war so fucking heavily that the country is so impossibly flawed that there is no way they could win any resurgent war.

On top of that history is replete with battles won by extreme underdogs, and they could easily force an A-symmetrical war where morale means a whole hell of a lot more than numbers or matériel advantage. Hell look at Thermopylae and Artemisium, 7000 greeks with about 250 boats vs some 150,000-300,000 Persians with 1200 boats. Sure they retreated and Greece was overrun, and Athens burned. But they laid the groundwork for the sizeably weaker Greek forces of the individual independent city states to defeat a much more powerful army from the Persian Empire and throw them out of the country.

2) Ulfric Stormcloak cannot run Skyrim. Have you seen Windhelm? The place is a total mess. The entire place is more like a stony slum than a city. The streets are filth ridden and the people are starving. Riften is even worse, the guard know exactly where the thieves guild are hiding, but apparently Ulfric doesn't want to waste reinforcements. He can't even manage his section of Skyrim well enough to eradicate a group of pick pockets. How will he ever run an entire continent of Tamriel?

He is fighting a war against an Empire much larger than his forces. Even in the most prosperous countries sacrifices are made and the city streets look shitty. Hell look at Berlin during even early ww2; and the Germans were OCD neat freaks. Expecting him to spend resources making things pretty and nice when he has a war to fight is insane.

3) Ulfric is a total manchild, and only cares about power. Main story spoilers coming up.

Spoiler

During the peace treaty with the Imperials, he acted like a child. he kicked up a fuss because he didn't want to be in the same room as a Thalmore, and then proceeded to demand city after city to be surrendered to the Stormcloaks, whilst ranting away at the Imperials with his bile about "true sons of Skyrim". Even in the face of the total destruction of Skyrim, he continued to act like a child, and to furhter his own power.

From what I've seen the Thalmore are basically the Nazis, except they haven't lost yet. On top of that the Thalmore have denied the Nords from worshiping their apparently most important God. So you think hes a manchild for not wanting the dudes who are basically SS guards that are religiously persecuting him, who the game points out over and over are basically information gathering spies that regularly kidnap and murder Nord civilians, and have been actively working to prolong the conflict, from being in the peace talks? Really? Honestly?

4) Last, but not least, the Stormcloaks are racist nationalists, that think the fact that they are the "correct" race means that they should be allowed Skyrim, and that other races should not have authority or power, because they aren't the right race. Homeland or no homeland, these guys are basically the Skyrim equivalent of the BNP.

Every independence movement relies heavily on nationalism, this is not a big deal, it matters more what they do afterwards than what they do during a war as wars are always dirty. I'm playing as a Breton and have been declared Thane in several Stormcloak cities and have been declared a hero of the Stormcloak movement. That does not sound like racism to me.

 

[C.H.A.L.E.T.]

I can't remember what quest it is, but at one point you're told that even though Talos worship was officially worshipped nobody really gave that much of a damn. People still had little private shrines in their homes but the Thalmor weren't doing a whole lot of damage. Then Ulfric had his tantrum about it and made the outlaw on Talos worship one of the main tenants, suddenly the Thalmor start much, much, more actively purging the 'heresy', storming into peoples homes, etc.

But the thing is the Empire was suppose to keep it outlaw. Sure yeah, they can have private shrines but what would have happen if The Thalmor knew about that? cause I'm pretty sure they would have done the same thing if they found out that the people of the Empire knew about it.

How is worshiping your god in secret any way to live? It still not right no matter what anyone says. Talos is part of the nine divine and earn this godhood. Fuck the elfs and trying to get rid of him just because "he a mere human." If anything the Thalmor are the biggest racist here.

I'm sure they knew about it. It's pretty widely accepted that people still worshipped Talos just not publicly. Heck, even the Jarl of Solitude (the IMPERIAL seat of power in Skyrim) asks you in the middle of her court to put her husbands horn on a HIDDEN shrine of Talos. Whiterun also has a statue to Talos and has heavy Imperial leanings.

Ulfric starts a fuss about it and uses it as a major drive for recruitment into his rebellion. THAT is when the Empire and by extension the Thalmor start to violently crack down on it, because then it is a direct threat to their rule when before it was just something they couldn't stop people form privately doing anyway.

 

[tangoprime]

Also, they didn't try to cut my head off for no damn reason, fuck the Empire, seriously.

Let me quote myself:

To all the people that keep saying that the empire wanted to execute you for no reason think about the circumstances of your capture. You were captured by an ambush set for Ulfric so of course they'll assume you're with him and can't take any chances by simply letting you go otherwise they would have to let every idiot that's allied with the stormcloaks but not famous enough to be on the wanted list go when captured.

I see your point, but that doesn't change the fact that they WERE wrong, and about to kill an innocent citizen. Sure, they don't have to kiss your boo-boos and let you walk away, but the whole thing was a kangaroo court. There are always options other than "cut his/her fucking head off". You were tied up surrounded by imperial guards, escape was not an option. Just ask the arrow ridden dead fellow over yander.

When someone is murdered, do the police gun down the first person at the scene?

Bad example for your last bit. A better would be "When terrorist Anwar Al Awlaki is sighted, does Obama order a strike on the entire convoy?" The apparently answer is yes, and sadly the situation is similar. lol

BTW, I sided Empire, the civil war is just weakening everybody with regards to the coming fight with the dominion, which is their intention. Plus Ulfric is a dick, everybody he surrounds himself with are complete asshats to you, such as colonel-campbell-with-a-sore-throat who's always talking about slitting people's throats, and his capital is a complete shithole. The outlined points previously mentioned are pretty definitive.

 

[Booze Zombie]

Genocide would be a better word for it.

Pfft, if you say so. It's exactly the same thing all of our ancestors did when they intigrated with the original peoples of the land.

 

[rebel581]

OT: I joined the Stormcloaks for two reasons: one, I was roleplaying a Nord veteran. Two, as much as there is to dislike the Stormcloaks, the Imperials gave the elves the key to the Empire and outlawed worship of Talos. Real-world parallel would be the Roman outlawing and persecution of Christians, especially since Talos is an ascended mortal.

While not relevant to the discussion, I do want to point out Rome DID outlaw Christianity. One of Nero's favorite activities happened to be feeding those "annoying Christians" to lions. There's a reason Nero is not written favorably in the history books. The history books happen to have been written by people he killed.

At that point in history though, Christianity was this weird new religion. It wasn't a major religion and was this weird offshoot of Judaism. It may not have even been called Christianity yet.

I think the parallels end with "ascended mortal", but I haven't gotten very far into Skyrim and I haven't played previous Elder Scrolls games.

 

[Outcast107]

I can't remember what quest it is, but at one point you're told that even though Talos worship was officially worshipped nobody really gave that much of a damn. People still had little private shrines in their homes but the Thalmor weren't doing a whole lot of damage. Then Ulfric had his tantrum about it and made the outlaw on Talos worship one of the main tenants, suddenly the Thalmor start much, much, more actively purging the 'heresy', storming into peoples homes, etc.

But the thing is the Empire was suppose to keep it outlaw. Sure yeah, they can have private shrines but what would have happen if The Thalmor knew about that? cause I'm pretty sure they would have done the same thing if they found out that the people of the Empire knew about it.

How is worshiping your god in secret any way to live? It still not right no matter what anyone says. Talos is part of the nine divine and earn this godhood. Fuck the elfs and trying to get rid of him just because "he a mere human." If anything the Thalmor are the biggest racist here.

I'm sure they knew about it. It's pretty widely accepted that people still worshipped Talos just not publicly. Heck, even the Jarl of Solitude (the IMPERIAL seat of power in Skyrim) asks you in the middle of her court to put her husbands horn on a HIDDEN shrine of Talos. Whiterun also has a statue to Talos and has heavy Imperial leanings.

Ulfric starts a fuss about it and uses it as a major drive for recruitment into his rebellion. THAT is when the Empire and by extension the Thalmor start to violently crack down on it, because then it is a direct threat to their rule when before it was just something they couldn't stop people form privately doing anyway.

Whiterun may have it there but its ban. Don't you hear that one guy screaming about it? Sure their not going to do anything about it, since the Thalmor isn't there. Note that, Thalmor isn't there. Go to any other city and while the Thalmor are there and I'm pretty sure you won't see anyone going near that place. Also Whiterun is neutral in the war.

And also why would the Thalmor ask the Empire to ban the practice of Talos if they don't care if the civilians still worship him. Think about it, why go through the trouble of banning something in at treaty and not enforce it.

Edit: God I can't spell today...

 

[Master Kuja]

The Imperials and Stormcloaks are just as bad as one another, the Imperials may be trying to hold Skyrim together, but it's done in an altogether tyrannical manner. The Stormcloaks on the other hand are terrifyingly reminiscent of the Nazi regime with their words of Nord supremacy and sheer contempt for anyone who dared have to gall to not be born Nord.

They're both shit, but if pressed I'd side with the Imperials purely because the Stormcloaks can't even get the shit they've currently got together. God forbid the bloody entirety of Skyrim.

 

[Evil Top Hat]

From what I've seen the Thalmore are basically the Nazis, except they haven't lost yet. On top of that the Thalmore have denied the Nords from worshiping their apparently most important God. So you think hes a manchild for not wanting the dudes who are basically SS guards that are religiously persecuting him, who the game points out over and over are basically information gathering spies that regularly kidnap and murder Nord civilians, and have been actively working to prolong the conflict, from being in the peace talks? Really? Honestly?

That's not what I meant. He didn't want to sit at the same table as a Thalmore, which is understandable, but almost refusing to attend the peace confrence that could save the whole of Skyrim (or probably Tamriel) from total destruction because you don't want to sit at the same table as somebody you don't like is more than slightly childish. As is nearly walked out of the peace treaty because the Imperials wouldn't give you the city you wanted. He failed to notice the full way through that conference that there were bigger things at stake that his own power.

The rest of your post was convincing though. I'm beginning to think I'd placed too much trust in the Empire's abbility to fight back against the Aldmeri Dominion, which is something that may not even be a possibility at all.

The real issue between the sides of the civil war is not which has the better morals and ideals, but which stands in a better position to fight the Aldmeri Dominion. I still can't figure out which side would be more up to the task.

 

[chadachada123]

I would be inclined to side with the Imperials if it wasn't for the fact that they are incredibly opposed to freedom of religion.

That's one area where the Stormcloaks exceed them, and the main reason that I sided with the Cloaks over the Imperials.

That, and the Imperials are too bureaucratic and, well, imperialistic, trying to kill me at the very beginning for no reason.

 

[BoTTeNBReKeR]

Come to think of it.

Spoiler

The emperor is kinda euh... dead. Who's leading the Empire now anyway?

 

[Outcast107]

snip

Though I haven't been to the peace talks, I'm still just going to toss my hat in for why he acting like that. Look at the treaty the Empire and Dominion sign a while back. The Empire lost a lot of shit to the Dominion (Which STILL not sure how they are going to fight back.) Would you as a leader want to talk out a "peace talk" with the same force that started all this? Who probably would also make outrages demands.

Plus the Empire should have fought on and not given up. Look at the Hammerfell after the Empire gave them up. They continue to fight the Thalmor and got a standstill against them. Skyrim could do the same thing with its landscape and rough weather.

Also true, the Nords are very racist but I think that will settle out once the Nords don't view outsiders and magic-users as troublemakers and as the "enemey." Time built it up for them to act this way and time will once again be needed for them to not act like racist dicks.

So I see the Stormcloaks better for long-term. At least they don't disband the blades, mages guide, ban their most worship god, as well as give up Nord civilian to the Thalmor for founding out they were worshiping Talos.

Plus if the Stormcloaks win, then the Thalmor/Empire are both driven out and won't have strongholds already in Skyrim territory when the war starts up again.

 

[Evil Top Hat]

Wouldn't you be displeased if you had to sit in the room with your largest enemy, who has forsaken your favorite god? If you answer no you need mental help. The imperials also wanted city after city from the stormcloaks as well during the peace treaty.

Again, I'm not saying that he shouldn't have been displeased about her presence, but choosing to have a total hissy fit and nearly leave the meeting that potential determine Skyrim's last chance of stopping Alduin from killing freaking everybody because of your own personal (if understandable) grudge is just ignorant and childish.

Also, the Imperials made no demands at that meeting. They asked for a city in return for Markarth, but they were not the ones making the demands, just finding ways to agree to Ulfric's insane requests. It was Ulfric that went out of his way to kick up a fuss about the cities he wanted, the Imperials only sought peace. The Imperials seemed happy to just leave that meeting with their temporary peace treaty, they didn't really try to gain anything, just tried to lose too much.

 

[DracoSuave]

How the hell do you think the Aldmeri are going to invade Skyrim? I don't know if you've tried, but I suggest you consider how hard it is to leave Skyrim without being able to fly over mountains. Skyrim is incredibly, mind-blowingly easy to defend because every single entrance is a narrow mountain pass and this is a world where it is not only feasible but fairly easy to bathe a small area in magical fire that will kill most normal people on a constant basis.

Man, how would an enemy based on an island attack?

Could it be by land?

No...

I doubt they'll attack by sea, what, there's only AN ENTIRE COAST LINE