It seems from the many polls that have been taken on the subject, that most Skyrim players seem to be going with the Stormcloaks, and I can't figure out why. In the following post, I will make four points, after reading, feel free to respond and argue with my points.
1) The White-Gold concordat will surely be broken soon, and it will not be long before war with the Ald'meri Dominion resurfaces. If the Stormcloaks take hold of Skyrim, how can they even hope to defend themselves? The Ald'meri Dominion are an incredibly powerful force, how is a team of rag tag rebels ever going to defend Skyrim, especially after having just emerged from such a costly war?
2) Ulfric Stormcloak cannot run Skyrim. Have you seen Windhelm? The place is a total mess. The entire place is more like a stony slum than a city. The streets are filth ridden and the people are starving. Riften is even worse, the guard know exactly where the thieves guild are hiding, but apparently Ulfric doesn't want to waste reinforcements. He can't even manage his section of Skyrim well enough to eradicate a group of pick pockets. How will he ever run an entire continent of Tamriel?
3) Ulfric is a total manchild, and only cares about power. Main story spoilers coming up.
During the peace treaty with the Imperials, he acted like a child. he kicked up a fuss because he didn't want to be in the same room as a Thalmore, and then proceeded to demand city after city to be surrendered to the Stormcloaks, whilst ranting away at the Imperials with his bile about "true sons of Skyrim". Even in the face of the total destruction of Skyrim, he continued to act like a child, and to furhter his own power.
4) Last, but not least, the Stormcloaks are racist nationalists, that think the fact that they are the "correct" race means that they should be allowed Skyrim, and that other races should not have authority or power, because they aren't the right race. Homeland or no homeland, these guys are basically the Skyrim equivalent of the BNP.
I couldn't agree with you more... other than I haven't read anyone chosing the Stormcloaks at all, but I haven't read many forums till now, since I only just completed the main quest recently.
Oh and dude, you should so have had a poll here, as in 'who picked the empire / the stormcloaks' would've been very interesting to gauge that.
Points 1, 2 and 4 all make sense, but point 3 (Yes the one with the Spoiler, so stop reading if it will spoil) I don't understand.
- I just killed the bastard, so, where's the peace treaty... oh, unless you mean before the civil war?
The Empire rules till the end! In my Skyrim, we were victorious over those evil Stormcloaks, I'll kill as many as it takes - I'm a Legate bitches, so suck it down!
1) The White-Gold concordat will surely be broken soon, and it will not be long before war with the Ald'meri Dominion resurfaces. If the Stormcloaks take hold of Skyrim, how can they even hope to defend themselves? The Ald'meri Dominion are an incredibly powerful force, how is a team of rag tag rebels ever going to defend Skyrim, especially after having just emerged from such a costly war?
4) Last, but not least, the Stormcloaks are racist nationalists, that think the fact that they are the "correct" race means that they should be allowed Skyrim, and that other races should not have authority or power, because they aren't the right race. Homeland or no homeland, these guys are basically the Skyrim equivalent of the BNP.
These are the two points that interest me the most so I thought I'd address them. Firstly, to the idea that the Empire will eventually stand up to the Aldmeri Dominion...I find this unlikely as the war is still going on as the events of Skyrim unfold. The RedGuards have seceded from the Empire themselves and are continuing to fight against the Aldmeri in what we can assume to be quite a bloody conflict and the Empire has done nothing to aid them.
The problem the Empire has is that militarily it had won a decisive victory at the end of the Great War which forced Peace Negotiations on the Aldmeri but their legions were nearly exhausted by it. This exhaustion led the incredibly generous terms of the concordat and left the two largest human groups in the Legions (Redguards and Nords) feeling betrayed so is it any shock that both of these peoples are now leaving the Empire?
Following on from this without the recruitment from these two most warlike human bands the Legions are fatally crippled and even if they retook both Hammerfell and Skyrim resentment could lead to recruitment remaining pitifully low compared to previous centuries. Who are left really to fight the Aldmeri then? Bretons and Orcs?
As for the final point, I want to say that the hyper-nationalism does make me slightly uncomfortable but I don't think it would make my character in Skyrim feel that way. Remember that what we are looking at in Tamriel is essentially a medieval society where tribal ties of family and race would be considered sacred in the common peoples. This is not the enlightened age of reason, it's a time of fear and darkness when people look out for their friends and noone else.
In that context the language of the Stormcloaks would strike a chord with thousands of Nords allready upset about the apparent betrayl of the Empire. We can't trust the foreigners, we can only trust our own.
Question: How many people would join the Stormcloaks if Jarl Ulfric wasn't in charge?
I would happily join the Stormcloaks if Jarl Balgruf ran them out of Whiterun. I have absolutely no faith in Ulfric as a leader (given the dilapidated shithole cities he controls, I doubt Ulfric's Skyrim would fare much better) and our first introduction to him as a military leader involves him walking right into an Imperial ambush.
I have a related question: If i let the Stormcloaks attack Whiterun, does this have any consequences for me? i'm the leader of the Companions by now, so i wouldnt want any of them to die or turn hostile...
The Battle for Whiterun is phased like the other battles during the Civil War chain, none of the citizens are outside during them so there's no chance of death or collateral damage, And choosing Imperial/Stormcloak does not affect the guilds in the game aside from different people you need to talk to for side quests and the like.
It seems from the many polls that have been taken on the subject, that most Skyrim players seem to be going with the Stormcloaks, and I can't figure out why. In the following post, I will make four points, after reading, feel free to respond and argue with my points.
1) The White-Gold concordat will surely be broken soon, and it will not be long before war with the Ald'meri Dominion resurfaces. If the Stormcloaks take hold of Skyrim, how can they even hope to defend themselves? The Ald'meri Dominion are an incredibly powerful force, how is a team of rag tag rebels ever going to defend Skyrim, especially after having just emerged from such a costly war?
2) Ulfric Stormcloak cannot run Skyrim. Have you seen Windhelm? The place is a total mess. The entire place is more like a stony slum than a city. The streets are filth ridden and the people are starving. Riften is even worse, the guard know exactly where the thieves guild are hiding, but apparently Ulfric doesn't want to waste reinforcements. He can't even manage his section of Skyrim well enough to eradicate a group of pick pockets. How will he ever run an entire continent of Tamriel?
3) Ulfric is a total manchild, and only cares about power. Main story spoilers coming up.
During the peace treaty with the Imperials, he acted like a child. he kicked up a fuss because he didn't want to be in the same room as a Thalmore, and then proceeded to demand city after city to be surrendered to the Stormcloaks, whilst ranting away at the Imperials with his bile about "true sons of Skyrim". Even in the face of the total destruction of Skyrim, he continued to act like a child, and to furhter his own power.
4) Last, but not least, the Stormcloaks are racist nationalists, that think the fact that they are the "correct" race means that they should be allowed Skyrim, and that other races should not have authority or power, because they aren't the right race. Homeland or no homeland, these guys are basically the Skyrim equivalent of the BNP.
And Skyrim isn't even the original Nord homeland they took it from the original inhabitants. They are originally from another continent north of Tamriel.
Tamriel is actually the continent, the entire world itself is called Mundus, or something.
Anyways, I'll just copy and paste what I wrote on a similar article.
I had a very hard time choosing, this is one of the in-game decisions that I will remember for a long time.
I chose Empire.
The Empire NEEDS Skyrim, and Skyrim NEEDS the Empire. Without the manpower and skill of the Nord troops, the Empire will not win the second war versus the Thalmor. But if Skyrim gains independance, they can't stand alone against the might of the Altmeri Dominion.
If Humanity is to survive the Thalmor's future attacks, (and believe me, they are coming) they will need to be united. The old cliche, divide and conquer.
While the Empire might seem to be a puppet of the Thalmor, you know, the whole concordat and all, make no mistake, shit's going to go down, and soon. The Empire will need every sword at it's disposal. It can't afford to be surrounded by hostile forces on yet another side.
No matter how just the Stormcloaks cause may seem, their demands must be rejected, for the greater good.
Okay. Everyone and their grandmother is quoting me about my Tamriel flub. I know. I know. And also both sides were written so that ultimately neither would really have the moral high ground. Both are assholes, and both state genuine reasons they would be the better rulers.
And Skyrim isn't even the original Nord homeland they took it from the original inhabitants. They are originally from another continent north of Tamriel.
Tamriel is actually the continent, the entire world itself is called Mundus, or something.
Anyways, I'll just copy and paste what I wrote on a similar article.
I had a very hard time choosing, this is one of the in-game decisions that I will remember for a long time.
I chose Empire.
The Empire NEEDS Skyrim, and Skyrim NEEDS the Empire. Without the manpower and skill of the Nord troops, the Empire will not win the second war versus the Thalmor. But if Skyrim gains independance, they can't stand alone against the might of the Altmeri Dominion.
If Humanity is to survive the Thalmor's future attacks, (and believe me, they are coming) they will need to be united. The old cliche, divide and conquer.
While the Empire might seem to be a puppet of the Thalmor, you know, the whole concordat and all, make no mistake, shit's going to go down, and soon. The Empire will need every sword at it's disposal. It can't afford to be surrounded by hostile forces on yet another side.
No matter how just the Stormcloaks cause may seem, their demands must be rejected, for the greater good.
Okay. Everyone and their grandmother is quoting me about my Tamriel flub. I know. I know. And also both sides were written so that ultimately neither would really have the moral high ground. Both are assholes, and both state genuine reasons they would be the better rulers.
Regarding the whole who came to Skyrim first, it was actually elves, the race of men came from Atmora and settled first in Skyrim, then the rest of Tamriel.
He really cares for his people, that much is obvious. He knows what is best for Skyrim, and he's convinced that the Aldmeri Dominion are not to be trusted.
He cares for his people? That's not what you'll hear in the slum built for the dark elves in Windhelm. If he only cares about one race of people, and treats the rest like dirt, I would not say that he knows whats best for Skyrim. Obviously he understands that the Dominion are not to be trusted, but so do the Empire, the difference is that the Empire were forced into the peace treaty, otherwise the Aldmeri Dominion would have totally walked what was left of the Empire, and all of Skyrim would be in slavery.
What the Stormcloaks don't seem to understand is that the Empire do not trust or like the Aldmeri Dominion, they did not enter the White-Gold concordat becaus they thought it would be a dandy thing to do to their people and they are not banning Talos worship simply because they feel like it. They are doing it because that's what they had to do to keep their people from falling to the Aldmeri Dominion.
For one, the dark elves are not Ulfric's people. They're refugees. No refugee community has ever been well-treated in the history of the world. Did you expect him to give the newcomers priority over his own people? Given that he only has control of Windhelm at the start, his resources do not stretch far enough to cover two separate populations. Here in England, despite our supposedly wealthy country, even our immigrants are treated badly by the natives. Immigrants got priority for everything, so people hated it. That just happens. You can't expect Stormcloak to just open his arms for every dunmer that strolls into his city wanting a handout. They GOT their handouts. That slum is what they've made it. If they don't like it, they should have kept walking.
You're under the impression that the Stormcloaks are doing this out of an emotional hatred for the Empire. They're not. The Empire may have to bow to the Thalmor, but that's because their territories are hard to defend. Skyrim has no such obligation. If the Empire just took their hands off Skyrim, the war would have been averted. The Empire cannot just say "Okay, you can worship Talos.", because then the high elves would most likely commit genocide in Cyrodiil. The capital is being held hostage. However, if the Stormcloaks win, and the Empire is thrown out of Skyrim, they no longer have to enforce the religious laws there, and the Thalmor have to fight a war using their OWN troops in Skyrim. An independent Skyrim would destroy the Thalmor's invading force, perhaps sufficiently weakening their armies for a coalition Hammerfell-Skyrim-Imperial force to make a move on Summerset Isle.
I always thought that Beth posed an incredibly difficult question with this faction choice. Seeing the seven pages on this thread so far, it seems I was right. Adds some nice depth to the game's world.
Anyway, I'm not sure who I want to ally with. I'm leaning towards the Empire, though. Stormcloaks seem kind of... shit, badass name withheld.
Its not a "hard question." Its a badly worded one. Its not a "gray" area. Its actually a right and wrong question. Bethesda only tried to MAKE it seem like a gray area. Once you find out that:
He is actually a Thalmor agent
It all falls apart. Bethesda cannot do a gray morality scenario. Only Obsidian and Bioware can do that. Bethesda relies on the "morally correct white knight" trope so much they cant do anything else.
...HE IS NOT A AGENT! God it gets so tiring to tell people this. The Thalmor have records of him and consider him a "tool" to be use. THATS IT. He the only one who can keep the war going on. If you actually READ the damn report it says that they do NOT want a Stormcloak victory either.
So if he a AGENT of the Thalmor then they would WANT him to win. Not "try to keep both sides fighting to make them weak."
It's not really a spoiler. You find a dossier in a chest where the Thalmor basically say that the civil war is weakening the empire, and therefore Ulfric is a useful Jarl unless he wins the war. Also it states that trying to directly contact him will probably end badly.
I sided with the Empire, no questions asked. Who cares that they were going to execute me just because? They were just getting Machiavellian on my ass! I would have done the same thing. A good ruler cannot tolerate rebels.
As quoted from UESP: Literally translated as "Home of the Elves", the Aldmeri Dominion was an empire that as of 2E 830 made up the realms of Summerset Isle and Valenwood. It was formed when the heirs of the Camoran Dynasty began to fight over the Valenwood throne. A faction of Bosmer attempted to make peace with their enemies in in the Colovian Estates by offering part of the Valenwood territory in exchange for the faction's claimant. The Altmer, upon hearing of this, invaded Valenwood, citing a stewardship clause in a thousand year old treaty [1].
The Altmer established the Thalmor as the government in Valenwood on behalf of their claimant Camoran Anxemes (whose ascendants made the original treaty a thousand years before). As the Empire was still recovering from the Interregnum, the Colovian armies were easily forced back by the Elves and the Aldmeri Dominion was born. The Thalmor strengthened its hold on Valenwood province during the foundations of the Third Empire and Bosmer tribes continued to skirmish with the Colovian Estates under the rule of the High Elves. With the Empire reunited under Tiber Septim the attacks subsided although each side remained encamped on the border waiting for a decisive battle.
At sea, the Elven forces were considerably more powerful and the Dominion was able to hold the southern waters from the Cape of the Blue Divide to the Topal Bay. The Elves made allies with some Reachmen, the Maormer of Pyandonea, and the Elsweyr Confederacy. Although there was no formal declaration of war, Tamriel was divided between the Empire and the Dominion in an unfolding clash of civilizations. The catastrophic use of the Numidium ended the long confrontation, resulting in the surrender of the Summerset Isles and the human conquest of Tamriel. The Dominion would represent the last time the elves of Tamriel ruled sovereign kingdoms on the continent, the final legacy of the Direnni and Aldmer holdings.
Later, in 4E 29, the Aldmeri Dominion was re-established across the Imperial provinces of Valenwood and the Summerset Isles, which were renamed Alinor. Once the Void Nights (4E 98-100) ended, the Thalmor (who govern the Aldmeri Dominion) claimed to have caused the return of Masser and Secunda. The Thalmor also developed a friendly relationship with the former Imperial province of Elsweyr, in the form of two client states (Anequina and Pelletine).
Later, in 4E 171, the Thalmor invaded Hammerfell and Cyrodiil after Titus Mede II rejected their Ultimatum. Aldmeri forces would push deep into both provinces, taking many cities, including the Imperial City. The Thalmor then faced their greatest defeat (later known as the Battle of the Red Ring), in which they lost all of their forces in Cyrodiil. Despite this, due mainly to the exhaustion of the Imperial Legions, the Great War ended with the White-Gold Concordat, which resulted in Talos worship being outlawed in the Empire, and a significant portion of Southern Hammerfell becoming part of the Dominion. However, Hammerfell rejected the treaty and left the Empire, continuing to fight the Thalmor until 4E 180, when the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai was signed by both sides, resulting in the Aldmeri forces pulling out of Hammerfell, and a territorial status quo.[2]
Apparently, the Imnperial's are the good guys - having beaten the elves, but being in a position were they couldn't finalize the victory decided on a Stalemate. If the stormcloak's would stop their revolution and join the empire and Hammerfell, the elves may actually be pushed back.
You're right, Stormcloaks are too mainstream. Now, Forsworn on the other hand, they're pretty indie.
Seriously though, I've never been a fan of the Stormcloaks. Even at the start I sided with the Imperials (because I though Hadvar seemed like a nice guy, which I admit isn't the best reason).
I think it's fair, I ultimately went stormcloak because the sergeant at the beginning was a dick but I followed Hadvar out of the tutorial because he seemed like he didn't want to kill me.
It should be noted that, for those who've played the previous TES games, use those experiences and what you've learned about the lore/races/factions etc, to inform your choices and it will make for a more engaging play-through.
Apparently, the Imnperial's are the good guys - having beaten the elves, but being in a position were they couldn't finalize the victory decided on a Stalemate. If the stormcloak's would stop their revolution and join the empire and Hammerfell, the elves may actually be pushed back.
i actually freed the forsworn king from that mine on my lizard paladin.. i'm not quite sure what repercussions that will have yet!
( they already took one city ) it's going to cause big aaa problems isn't it..
It should be noted that, for those who've played the previous TES games, use those experiences and what you've learned about the lore/races/factions etc, to inform your choices and it will make for a more engaging play-through.
Actually, I was pretty impressed at how much the political situation had changed since previous TES games. It's pretty clear that the Empire of Skyrim isn't the empire you knew and loved in Oblivion...it's a bit ambiguous whether the failing of the Septim bloodline and the White-Gold Concordat are just setbacks for the Empire, or whether the Empire has become a power-hungry meddler interested only in the safety of Cyrcodil, at the expense of the other provinces...remember, Skyrim was pretty much left defenseless during the attack on the Imperial City.
As for myself, I ended siding with the Empire (my character's a Dunmer, so signing up for the Stormcloaks really doesn't make much sense), but I was a bit disappointed that I wasn't given a chance to rethink my position after a couple of missions. Especially after
the Jagged Crown mission, I thought the Crown ought to be handed over to the rightful Queen, Jarl Elsif. Instead Gen. Tullius was just like "OK, thanks", and it became obvious that he really didn't respect Elsif's position at all, as long as she was a good puppet.
It'd have been nice to be able to advance a little in the questline and explore each side before choosing sides for good, like the main quest in New Vegas.
To all the people that keep saying that the empire wanted to execute you for no reason think about the circumstances of your capture. You were captured by an ambush set for Ulfric so of course they'll assume you're with him and can't take any chances by simply letting you go otherwise they would have to let every idiot that's allied with the stormcloaks but not famous enough to be on the wanted list go when captured.
No, it's said in the intro that you were arrested crossing the border, nothing is mentioned about an ambush so you must assume we were just thrown in with the prisoner convoy. The guy sitting next to you was arrested for horse theft, he had absolutely nothing to do with the Stormcloaks yet he was executed. It seems that the punishment for all crimes in the Empire is execution.
...Except that in the intro scene, Ralof mentions how you got caught up in the Imperial ambush, just like them. As for Lokir, who knows what he's done? Did you think about WHY he attempted to steal that horse so he could flee to Hammerfell? I don't pretend to be an expert, but Lokir has to have a reason to want to steal that horse, whether to simply flee the war, or flee his previous crimes. I'm not saying that Lokir was definitely a criminal before and has more reasons for execution than just horse theft, but the fact that he was trying steal a horse and gtfo, to me, definitely rains doubt upon his self-proclaimed innocence.
On a similar note, sure, the Empire was going to have me executed, but with the fact that I got caught up in an ambush meant for Ulfric Stormcloak, what reasonable conclusion can the Empire come to, than that I was with him? If anyone could simply say "I'm not a rebel, I wasn't with him!" then the Empire would be letting a LOT of rebels run scot-free. In the beginning of the game, not counting your having crossed the border, you're nothing more than a victim of circumstance.
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