Stormcloaks are too mainstream.

[Kimarous]

I've claimed to support the Stormcloaks many times, citing that it is more about opposing the Empire than supporting Ulfric. While it is true that I think the Empire is a fractured shell that deserves to collapse, I actually think they are more deserving of winning the war. Part of the reason is selfish; all the Jarls I actually like are the ones Ulfric would have replaced. Another is because my character is Breton and wouldn't really fit with Ulfric's Nordic supremacist views. Lastly, I strongly believe that one should "never give power to angry people," and thus it feels really uncomfortable to throw my lot in with a violent revolution, especially one that made the first blow.

 

[violent_quiche]

I'm playing the political atheist, helping out those that need it (even those nice Greymane folks and their poor lost brother) and letting the consequences pile up until my position becomes untenable.

I'm playing an Imperial who starting the game on the chopping block courtesy of my own kind, yet when I see "Stormcloak" I read "Stormfront". I had the same issue in FO: New Vegas between Caesar's fanatics and the NBP's crumbling and overstretched establishment, so I'll my own way.

 

[Agayek]

I really, really sympathized with the Stormcloaks, and I allied with them, but they crossed the line when they attacked Whiterun. I reloaded a pre-choice save and joined the Empire purely for that reason alone. Whiterun's my favorite city, and I'm rather fond of Balgruuf, so Ulfric can go fuck a goat. I really would have preferred an "Independent Whiterun" option, kinda like New Vegas. Sadly, I didn't get it.

 

[esin]

How bad is the damage when you go on the mission against whiterun? Do you raze the town to the ground or just kill a few specific tagets? If it's left intact can you ever go a back there? Jarl is expendable to me. Only care about my Companion bros and house.

 

[Outcast107]

I always thought that Beth posed an incredibly difficult question with this faction choice. Seeing the seven pages on this thread so far, it seems I was right. Adds some nice depth to the game's world.

Anyway, I'm not sure who I want to ally with. I'm leaning towards the Empire, though. Stormcloaks seem kind of... shit, badass name withheld.

Its not a "hard question." Its a badly worded one. Its not a "gray" area. Its actually a right and wrong question. Bethesda only tried to MAKE it seem like a gray area. Once you find out that:

Spoiler: Ulfric's secret. BIG spoilers.

He is actually a Thalmor agent

It all falls apart. Bethesda cannot do a gray morality scenario. Only Obsidian and Bioware can do that. Bethesda relies on the "morally correct white knight" trope so much they cant do anything else.

...HE IS NOT A AGENT! God it gets so tiring to tell people this. The Thalmor have records of him and consider him a "tool" to be use. THATS IT. He the only one who can keep the war going on. If you actually READ the damn report it says that they do NOT want a Stormcloak victory either.

So if he a AGENT of the Thalmor then they would WANT him to win. Not "try to keep both sides fighting to make them weak."

 

[The_Echo]

I always thought that Beth posed an incredibly difficult question with this faction choice. Seeing the seven pages on this thread so far, it seems I was right. Adds some nice depth to the game's world.

Anyway, I'm not sure who I want to ally with. I'm leaning towards the Empire, though. Stormcloaks seem kind of... shit, badass name withheld.

Its not a "hard question." Its a badly worded one. Its not a "gray" area. Its actually a right and wrong question. Bethesda only tried to MAKE it seem like a gray area. Once you find out that:

Spoiler: Ulfric's secret. BIG spoilers.

He is actually a Thalmor agent

It all falls apart. Bethesda cannot do a gray morality scenario. Only Obsidian and Bioware can do that. Bethesda relies on the "morally correct white knight" trope so much they cant do anything else.

That spoiler is so tempting. Oh gods.

Maybe it falls apart after this secret is pulled into view, but without it, it seems pretty gray to me. Or maybe I just need to ask around some more about how people are feeling about the war. Haven't done that much. [And then my eyes' wandering nature happen right upon the spoiler. FFFFFFFUUUUUUUU]

 

[Outcast107]

I always thought that Beth posed an incredibly difficult question with this faction choice. Seeing the seven pages on this thread so far, it seems I was right. Adds some nice depth to the game's world.

Anyway, I'm not sure who I want to ally with. I'm leaning towards the Empire, though. Stormcloaks seem kind of... shit, badass name withheld.

Its not a "hard question." Its a badly worded one. Its not a "gray" area. Its actually a right and wrong question. Bethesda only tried to MAKE it seem like a gray area. Once you find out that:

Spoiler: Ulfric's secret. BIG spoilers.

He is actually a Thalmor agent

It all falls apart. Bethesda cannot do a gray morality scenario. Only Obsidian and Bioware can do that. Bethesda relies on the "morally correct white knight" trope so much they cant do anything else.

...HE IS NOT A AGENT! God it gets so tiring to tell people this. The Thalmor have records of him and consider him a "tool" to be use. THATS IT. He the only one who can keep the war going on. If you actually READ the damn report it says that they do NOT want a Stormcloak victory either.

So if he a AGENT of the Thalmor then they would WANT him to win. Not "try to keep both sides fighting to make them weak."

Not necessarily. An agent goes beyond winning. an agent can do anything. However that brings yet another point.

It doesn't fucking matter.

Whoever wins, its the same outcome in the end. Its either a right and wrong answer or it doesn't matter. There is no "gray" area. That is bad writing. Bethesda still cannot shake its reputation for bad writing. It tries to fix everything else, but it cannot shake that fact.

Tell me how its a good thing if the war ends to soon? How will that help the Thalmor out in taking over everything. An Agent will do what best for their side, and keeping the war going is what he should be doing.

But Urlic is trying to end the war as soon as possible. Doesn't sound like a "Agent" of the Thalmor who, in the books of Urlic which you "read" is they WANT the war to continue. Doesn't sound like a good agent if he ends it so soon.

Also how is it bad writing? How is it a "right or wrong" choice? I just don't get your logic. Hell look at mass effect. The only way you can "lose" if you don't get upgrades or loyalties from your teammates. I mean you can be the biggest asshole of all time and still come out winning. Is that bad writing?

 

[Evil Top Hat]

He really cares for his people, that much is obvious. He knows what is best for Skyrim, and he's convinced that the Aldmeri Dominion are not to be trusted.

He cares for his people? That's not what you'll hear in the slum built for the dark elves in Windhelm. If he only cares about one race of people, and treats the rest like dirt, I would not say that he knows whats best for Skyrim. Obviously he understands that the Dominion are not to be trusted, but so do the Empire, the difference is that the Empire were forced into the peace treaty, otherwise the Aldmeri Dominion would have totally walked what was left of the Empire, and all of Skyrim would be in slavery.

What the Stormcloaks don't seem to understand is that the Empire do not trust or like the Aldmeri Dominion, they did not enter the White-Gold concordat becaus they thought it would be a dandy thing to do to their people and they are not banning Talos worship simply because they feel like it. They are doing it because that's what they had to do to keep their people from falling to the Aldmeri Dominion.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

Concern yourself not with the petty squabbles of those who seek power through politics and strife. Stormcloak, Empire or Dominion, in the end it matters not. Their coin purses are all fat for the taking and someone will always require the services of the Dark Brotherhood regardless of who claims to own this or that land.

Slycne
Listener of the Dark Brotherhood, Nightingale Agent of Nocturne and Thieves' Guild Master.

Speaking of that, I now regret

Spoiler: Dark Brotherhood spoilers

killing the Emperor. I sided with the Empire and have read the in game book on the Great War. I may have seriously hurt the Empire's chances of beating the Thalmor. Whoops. My bad.

 

[ultrachicken]

Well, on the one hand, the Imperial wrongdoings are mostly justified, and they've proven to be effective rulers when there aren't ancient forces of ultimate destruction trying to fuck things up. On the other, they are still going through with wrongdoings, and the Nords shouldn't have to put up with that. However, the Nords are also racist pricks, and would likely pass discriminatory laws against all elves if they had the chance, and their leader is a selfish manchild.

Basically, it depends on my character. My Dark Elf assassin isn't going to have any of the Stormcloaks' shit, but my Nord warrior is a true patriot.

 

[Darth_Dude]

And Skyrim isn't even the original Nord homeland they took it from the original inhabitants. They are originally from another continent north of Tamriel.

You can't get north of Tamriel, that's like going north of Earth. But I think I get what you mean.

Tamriel is actually the continent, the entire world itself is called Mundus, or something.

Anyways, I'll just copy and paste what I wrote on a similar article.

I had a very hard time choosing, this is one of the in-game decisions that I will remember for a long time.

I chose Empire.

The Empire NEEDS Skyrim, and Skyrim NEEDS the Empire. Without the manpower and skill of the Nord troops, the Empire will not win the second war versus the Thalmor. But if Skyrim gains independance, they can't stand alone against the might of the Altmeri Dominion.

If Humanity is to survive the Thalmor's future attacks, (and believe me, they are coming) they will need to be united. The old cliche, divide and conquer.



While the Empire might seem to be a puppet of the Thalmor, you know, the whole concordat and all, make no mistake, shit's going to go down, and soon. The Empire will need every sword at it's disposal. It can't afford to be surrounded by hostile forces on yet another side.

No matter how just the Stormcloaks cause may seem, their demands must be rejected, for the greater good.

 

[similar.squirrel]

I'm with the Imperials. Nationalism is bullshit. Stormcloaks are like the IRA.

 

[Kimarous]

But if Skyrim gains independance, they can't stand alone against the might of the Altmeri Dominion.

Why not? Hammerfell stands alone and they survive. You think the Thalmor can afford to fight the triple nations of Hammerfell, Skyrim, and the Imperial remnant all at once? Skyrim is a harsh land with a harsh entryway (that's no easy coast to invade), and even if the Dominion does get an army in, they're in store for the same guerrilla tactics that doomed many British offences against Wales and Scotland. You're fighting a proud warrior race on their own mountainous turf? It's a suicide run, it's what it is.

So no. Skyrim does NOT need the Empire. The Empire needs IT, but not the other way around.

 

[Ruwrak]

1) The White-Gold concordat will surely be broken soon, and it will not be long before war with the Ald'meri Dominion resurfaces. If the Stormcloaks take hold of Skyrim, how can they even hope to defend themselves? The Ald'meri Dominion are an incredibly powerful force, how is a team of rag tag rebels ever going to defend Skyrim, especially after having just emerged from such a costly war?

I've wondered this myself. No, the rebels are not fit for a war against the Thalmore. But they seem to want to have the old ways back and not forced to live by Imperial ways of life. They just want their land back from the opressors.

2) Ulfric Stormcloak cannot run Skyrim. Have you seen Windhelm? The place is a total mess. The entire place is more like a stony slum than a city. The streets are filth ridden and the people are starving. Riften is even worse, the guard know exactly where the thieves guild are hiding, but apparently Ulfric doesn't want to waste reinforcements. He can't even manage his section of Skyrim well enough to eradicate a group of pick pockets. How will he ever run an entire continent of Tamriel?

I believe the issue is here only about Skyrim. The Empire can have the rest of Tamriel. He wants to be King of Skyrim. The imperials walzed in and took him prisoner after he killed (or allegedly killed) the emperor so things are a bit up in the air right now. For example, if the Province of Friesland here in the Netherlands would seperate, they would create their own government. So our Prime minister is no longer in charge which leaves for a king of Friesland. Samething here in Skyrim. Seperation of the empire would mean no more emperor, but a king alike the traditions. I think Ulfric does not care about the rest of the empire to be fair.

3) Ulfric is a total manchild, and only cares about power. Main story spoilers coming up.

Spoiler

During the peace treaty with the Imperials, he acted like a child. he kicked up a fuss because he didn't want to be in the same room as a Thalmore, and then proceeded to demand city after city to be surrendered to the Stormcloaks, whilst ranting away at the Imperials with his bile about "true sons of Skyrim". Even in the face of the total destruction of Skyrim, he continued to act like a child, and to furhter his own power.

Spoiler

What nation is not a big baby these days? Anyway. Ulfric is a leader that has a vision and wants the best for his people. And by the best I mean his idea's. Wether or not he is a smart man does not really count. They're Nords. And I don't believe they are renown for their intellectual gifts. More for their brute strength and battlelust. So it fits in the traditional preception of 'hammer over mind.' if you get my drift.

4) Last, but not least, the Stormcloaks are racist nationalists, that think the fact that they are the "correct" race means that they should be allowed Skyrim, and that other races should not have authority or power, because they aren't the right race. Homeland or no homeland, these guys are basically the Skyrim equivalent of the BNP.

And that is why it's so hilarious that a -cat- saves their sorry butts. From dragons and assumingly the Empire as well. But in all seriousness. They are a proud people who have lived like that for years. Besides, remember the Argonian & Khajiit issue back in Oblivion (Leyawiin I believe)? Racism is natural in lands like these. Everyone thinks they are the top salmons there. I wonder that if we go to Elsewyr (I still laugh at that name) the Khajiit's will say "Sure come in, take our stuff, we love you newcomers.". What it boils down to is that the hatred against 'foreigners'comes from the imperials invading Skyrim and forbidding them to do stuff, like worshipping Thalos their number 1 divine.

 

[Darth_Dude]

But if Skyrim gains independance, they can't stand alone against the might of the Altmeri Dominion.

Why not? Hammerfell stands alone and they survive. You think the Thalmor can afford to fight the triple nations of Hammerfell, Skyrim, and the Imperial remnant all at once? Skyrim is a harsh land with a harsh entryway (that's no easy coast to invade), and even if the Dominion does get an army in, they're in store for the same guerrilla tactics that doomed many British offences against Wales and Scotland. You're fighting a proud warrior race on their own mountainous turf? It's a suicide run, it's what it is.

So no. Skyrim does NOT need the Empire. The Empire needs IT, but not the other way around.

But remember, Wales and Scotland aren't countries now are they? They both lost their battles for independence, no matter how costly it was for the British.

Hammerfell may stand right now, but come the next war, they are screwed.

The Nord's and Redguard may be able to inflict terrible losses in a guerrilla war, but in the end, the Dominion will just crush em with overwhelming force.

 

[Combustion Kevin]

pff... stable government is way too mainstream for me.
go tribalism and anarchy, ya posers.

OT, I think the nords will come out on top anyway, they are capable of defeating an enemy that outnumbers and outguns them.
besides, I think Skyrim may be the Elder Scrolls equavalent of russia, don't even TRY invading it, you'll just freeze to death, if not starve.
if the giants dont get to you first.