Stupid in game morality.

[goddessofblueberries]

Having a "morality stat" is a pretty weird idea to begin with, since there are many different systems of moral philosophy, which are predicated on many different views about the way the world works, that are frequently mutually exclusive. The alignment system in Neverwinter Nights (and really, the alignment system in D&D, itself) is pretty weird in places. Sure, I freed a few demons and I stole some stuff, but the demons and the people who wanted stuff stolen gave me quests! I'm a completionist! Is that so wrong?

All joking aside, I'd rather see some games that didn't have a stat for morality, but instead had complex moral decision-making where you didn't always know what was the best decision or what would lead to the best outcome. (You know, like in real life.) It would be nice to see some acknowledgment in video games of the complexity of moral choices, some grappling with issues like whether or not certain ends can really justify certain means. Are some actions always wrong, or does the moral quality of an action depend on the outcome, rather than the action itself? And how far into the future can we be expected to predict and consider ourselves responsible for the outcomes of our actions?

 

[pipboy2010]

I had this in Mass Effect. You get renegade points for killing the indoctrinated Salarians on Virmire. I still can't work out why, they were brainwashed slaves, basically, how is killing them evil?

Yeah, that made me laugh. What's worse is when you:

Spoiler

have to choose whether or not to kill the Rachni queen. I mean, seriously, you get paragon points for letting the thing go, when you know it might still be dangerous and without even checking with your superiors! It's one of the most irresponsible things Sheperd does and you get rewarded for it!

See, this is precisely why morality bars don't work in games. The games view of good and evil will very likely be different from the players', and the only way they can counteract it is by going with choices like kill the baby or eat the box of kittens.

Yup, and Mass Effect was even stranger because they went with Paragon and Renegade, instead of good and bad. The example I gave was the 'right' thing to do, but surely a renegade action? Very confusing. KOTOR's was more effective I think, but as you say, morality is relative.

 

[Debatra]

The Fame/Infamy part of Oblivion made no sense. Instead of a Karma meter, it had two numbers.(which is fine, if not better)

The higher your Fame, the more everyone likes you(everyone).
The higher your Infamy, the more low-esponsibility characters like you.

That's it. No other consequence.

Well, the Crusader's items can only be used if you have 1 Infamy or less, but they aren't really worth using.

 

[CoverYourHead]

Allowing for it's existence in general has the morality system of a game shocked you, offended your own views or otherwise made you go WTF? If so what do you do?
Fallout 3 letting you gain karma for helping a girl drug a priest (in training?) with ant pheromones so he'll leave the church and marry her (or lie to his boss.) If a boy wanted the drug this would border on date rape. I can't be alone in this.

I actually did that expecting negative karma, I was disappointed. Most of the karma was just messed up, but at least the little things have pretty much no influence, and eventually it takes a LOT to be able to change your standing at all.

 

[masterjiji]

Fable 1: beat the kid, take the bear and give it to the bully, and he gives you a gold piece. then beat HIM up, give the bear to the girl, and go to your dad, who will give you a gold piece FOR PERFORMING A GOOD DEED. also, same game: agree to guard the farmers barrels for about a minute, and then go to your father and get a gold piece for doing a good deed. THEN, go back to the barrels and mash them up to get the gold piece you would have gotten from just mashing the up anyways. similarly, same game: find the husband whos going out on his wife. accept his bribe of a gold piece, then rat his ass out anyways. finally, go to your dad, who will give you ANOTHER GOLD PIECE for PERFORMING A GOOD DEED. youre only supposed to get 3 gold pieces then, including the thing with the barrels, and you can get six. both a stupid moral system AND bad game design.

 

[TotallyFake]

I had this in Mass Effect. You get renegade points for killing the indoctrinated Salarians on Virmire. I still can't work out why, they were brainwashed slaves, basically, how is killing them evil?

Yeah, that made me laugh. What's worse is when you:

Spoiler

have to choose whether or not to kill the Rachni queen. I mean, seriously, you get paragon points for letting the thing go, when you know it might still be dangerous and without even checking with your superiors! It's one of the most irresponsible things Sheperd does and you get rewarded for it!

See, this is precisely why morality bars don't work in games. The games view of good and evil will very likely be different from the players', and the only way they can counteract it is by going with choices like kill the baby or eat the box of kittens.

Firstly, I have to question your morality if you think it's okay to kill brainwashed people. They're still people, and there's such a thing as de-programing to cure them. And, if I recall, at the time you release them you aren't certain if they ARE indoctrinated.

And as for your talk of "rewarding" Shepherd, and "views of good and evil" you've spectacularly missed the point. The whole Good/Evil thing is entirely out of place in regards to discussing Mass Effect.

Shepherd is the good guy. Upholder of galactic peace, protector of damsels in distress, defender of humanity. Unquestionably, a Good Guy?. The whole point of the Paragon/Renegade bars is to determine what KIND of good guy. Is he a letter-of-the-law white knight who'll knock everyone out and take them to the cops (Paragon) or is he a bucking-authority see-the-big-picture kinda guy who'll happily shoot you down if it serves the greater good (Renegade)

The fact that it isn't black-and-white good-and-evil morality is the entire point of Mass Effect. BioWare are pre-emptively spinning in their collective graves at you both.

 

[WhiteTigerShiro]

I shot Silver in the face and then for some reason lost Karma when I started 'stealing' the items that her corpse apparently still owned. You'd think they'd have coded that her items were no longer owned once she has no face.

I'd say that about makes sense. If I break into someone's house, shoot him in the face, then grab anything of value, then they're going to add robbery to the list of crimes when sizing-up the scene. Granted that the Capital Wasteland doesn't exactly have the same laws that we do, but the values of possession are more-or-less the same.

 

[barryween]

I also hate in Fallout 3 how murdering EVERYONE in Tenpenny gets me negative karma.
What the hell!?
They're all racist!
Also:

Spoiler

Why is it that killing all the people in Tranquility Lane is bad, when you are freeing them from their sad existences? And how is using a kill switch that kills them all better than just killing them yourself?

 

[internetzealot1]

I don't mind having some sort of morality tracker, but good god, keep it seperate from the gameplay.

 

[The_Echo]

The decision near the middle of inFAMOUS, where

Spoiler

You have to either save a bunch of scientists(?) or Trish. Save Trish from falling to her death, and you're evil. Save the other people from... uh.. whatever it was, and you're a good guy. Both ways someone dies!

 

[Silva]

Whether or not killing someone in Fallout 3 is wrong is determined by whether they're "innocents" or not. In other words, if they're not people who will attack you on sight, you will get negative karma. I think that murdering people just because they have racist views deserves negative karma, but that's just my system of morality.

As for Tranquility Lane, that was an odd karma consequence difference, but I think the reason for that is that killing them all by hand also means freaking them all out and personally ruining their otherwise perfect lives in the simulation. What really bothered me was that there was no healthier way of solving the situation, as in not killing anyone.

And EcoEclipse, those were doctors, not scientists. It was a question of a lot of people dying or just you-know-who. That's what the game is all about - either you're selfish and save those you love, or you save as many people as you can even if that means losing people you love. Emotionlessless is basically demanded by the game's moral system.

Fallout 3 letting you gain karma for helping a girl drug a priest (in training?) with ant pheromones so he'll leave the church and marry her (or lie to his boss.) If a boy wanted the drug this would border on date rape. I can't be alone in this.

I don't recall gaining karma for doing that. I thought the result of that sub-quest was no karma consequence, but maybe my memory is incorrect.

 

[Rusty Bucket]

I had this in Mass Effect. You get renegade points for killing the indoctrinated Salarians on Virmire. I still can't work out why, they were brainwashed slaves, basically, how is killing them evil?

Yeah, that made me laugh. What's worse is when you:

Spoiler

have to choose whether or not to kill the Rachni queen. I mean, seriously, you get paragon points for letting the thing go, when you know it might still be dangerous and without even checking with your superiors! It's one of the most irresponsible things Sheperd does and you get rewarded for it!

See, this is precisely why morality bars don't work in games. The games view of good and evil will very likely be different from the players', and the only way they can counteract it is by going with choices like kill the baby or eat the box of kittens.

Firstly, I have to question your morality if you think it's okay to kill brainwashed people. They're still people, and there's such a thing as de-programing to cure them. And, if I recall, at the time you release them you aren't certain if they ARE indoctrinated.

And as for your talk of "rewarding" Shepherd, and "views of good and evil" you've spectacularly missed the point. The whole Good/Evil thing is entirely out of place in regards to discussing Mass Effect.

Shepherd is the good guy. Upholder of galactic peace, protector of damsels in distress, defender of humanity. Unquestionably, a Good Guy?. The whole point of the Paragon/Renegade bars is to determine what KIND of good guy. Is he a letter-of-the-law white knight who'll knock everyone out and take them to the cops (Paragon) or is he a bucking-authority see-the-big-picture kinda guy who'll happily shoot you down if it serves the greater good (Renegade)

The fact that it isn't black-and-white good-and-evil morality is the entire point of Mass Effect. BioWare are pre-emptively spinning in their collective graves at you both.

If i recall, you were entirely sure they were indoctrinated. And in my eyes, the sheer level of brainwashing made it a hard choice, but the right one. Maybe brainwashed was the wrong word, they couldn't even think for themselves at this point, they could barely think at all.

I'd say a lot of the morality is black and white. It usually came down to kill something or not. Perhaps good and evil was the wrong term, right and wrong would have been better i suppose. I belive killing those Salarians was the right thing to do, whereas the game gave me negative points for it.

 

[Cyketor]

Allowing for it's existence in general has the morality system of a game shocked you, offended your own views or otherwise made you go WTF? If so what do you do?
Fallout 3 letting you gain karma for helping a girl drug a priest (in training?) with ant pheromones so he'll leave the church and marry her (or lie to his boss.) If a boy wanted the drug this would border on date rape. I can't be alone in this.

Yeah, I've had my issues with Fallout 3's karma system and the situation you highlighted is an example of one such case.

In another part of the game, if you help the ghouls get into Tenpenny tower peacefully, their leader will STILL go back on his word and kill all the humans. In the face of such a crime, if you decide to bring down the hammer on Roy and his boys after the fact you still get nailed with bad karma!

Yes can some one please quote me on this and tell me with 10 penny tower which choice gets u karma? and how do I easily keep my karma at average? (not bad or good)

 

[TotallyFake]

I had this in Mass Effect. You get renegade points for killing the indoctrinated Salarians on Virmire. I still can't work out why, they were brainwashed slaves, basically, how is killing them evil?

Yeah, that made me laugh. What's worse is when you:

Spoiler

have to choose whether or not to kill the Rachni queen. I mean, seriously, you get paragon points for letting the thing go, when you know it might still be dangerous and without even checking with your superiors! It's one of the most irresponsible things Sheperd does and you get rewarded for it!

See, this is precisely why morality bars don't work in games. The games view of good and evil will very likely be different from the players', and the only way they can counteract it is by going with choices like kill the baby or eat the box of kittens.

Firstly, I have to question your morality if you think it's okay to kill brainwashed people. They're still people, and there's such a thing as de-programing to cure them. And, if I recall, at the time you release them you aren't certain if they ARE indoctrinated.

And as for your talk of "rewarding" Shepherd, and "views of good and evil" you've spectacularly missed the point. The whole Good/Evil thing is entirely out of place in regards to discussing Mass Effect.

Shepherd is the good guy. Upholder of galactic peace, protector of damsels in distress, defender of humanity. Unquestionably, a Good Guy?. The whole point of the Paragon/Renegade bars is to determine what KIND of good guy. Is he a letter-of-the-law white knight who'll knock everyone out and take them to the cops (Paragon) or is he a bucking-authority see-the-big-picture kinda guy who'll happily shoot you down if it serves the greater good (Renegade)

The fact that it isn't black-and-white good-and-evil morality is the entire point of Mass Effect. BioWare are pre-emptively spinning in their collective graves at you both.

If i recall, you were entirely sure they were indoctrinated. And in my eyes, the sheer level of brainwashing made it a hard choice, but the right one. Maybe brainwashed was the wrong word, they couldn't even think for themselves at this point, they could barely think at all.

I'd say a lot of the morality is black and white. It usually came down to kill something or not. Perhaps good and evil was the wrong term, right and wrong would have been better i suppose. I belive killing those Salarians was the right thing to do, whereas the game gave me negative points for it.

Did you even read my post? It's not ABOUT right and wrong. It's about shades of grey. Paragon is not good, Renegade is not evil. And it's NOT negative points.

 

[Cyketor]

The decision near the middle of inFAMOUS, where

Spoiler

You have to either save a bunch of scientists(?) or Trish. Save Trish from falling to her death, and you're evil. Save the other people from... uh.. whatever it was, and you're a good guy. Both ways someone dies!

Yeah but its the concept of quantity over quality I thinks lawl!

 

[A Weary Exile]

This is what I'd think Jack the Ripper would say if he played Fallout.

That's what I am saying.
Just who do you think you're talking to, anyway?

Someone with an undeserved sense of superiority who can't take a joke.

 

[Rusty Bucket]

I had this in Mass Effect. You get renegade points for killing the indoctrinated Salarians on Virmire. I still can't work out why, they were brainwashed slaves, basically, how is killing them evil?

Yeah, that made me laugh. What's worse is when you:

Spoiler

have to choose whether or not to kill the Rachni queen. I mean, seriously, you get paragon points for letting the thing go, when you know it might still be dangerous and without even checking with your superiors! It's one of the most irresponsible things Sheperd does and you get rewarded for it!

See, this is precisely why morality bars don't work in games. The games view of good and evil will very likely be different from the players', and the only way they can counteract it is by going with choices like kill the baby or eat the box of kittens.

Firstly, I have to question your morality if you think it's okay to kill brainwashed people. They're still people, and there's such a thing as de-programing to cure them. And, if I recall, at the time you release them you aren't certain if they ARE indoctrinated.

And as for your talk of "rewarding" Shepherd, and "views of good and evil" you've spectacularly missed the point. The whole Good/Evil thing is entirely out of place in regards to discussing Mass Effect.

Shepherd is the good guy. Upholder of galactic peace, protector of damsels in distress, defender of humanity. Unquestionably, a Good Guy?. The whole point of the Paragon/Renegade bars is to determine what KIND of good guy. Is he a letter-of-the-law white knight who'll knock everyone out and take them to the cops (Paragon) or is he a bucking-authority see-the-big-picture kinda guy who'll happily shoot you down if it serves the greater good (Renegade)

The fact that it isn't black-and-white good-and-evil morality is the entire point of Mass Effect. BioWare are pre-emptively spinning in their collective graves at you both.

If i recall, you were entirely sure they were indoctrinated. And in my eyes, the sheer level of brainwashing made it a hard choice, but the right one. Maybe brainwashed was the wrong word, they couldn't even think for themselves at this point, they could barely think at all.

I'd say a lot of the morality is black and white. It usually came down to kill something or not. Perhaps good and evil was the wrong term, right and wrong would have been better i suppose. I belive killing those Salarians was the right thing to do, whereas the game gave me negative points for it.

Did you even read my post? It's not ABOUT right and wrong. It's about shades of grey. Paragon is not good, Renegade is not evil. And it's NOT negative points.

If it's about different shades of grey, then giving you points to make two little meters go up seems entirely counter productive. And it may not technically be negative points, but the game puts a negative spin on all the renegade choices, and they all seem fairly negative to me, except for the ones i disagree with.

Regardless of this, my original point still stands. Morality bars/points/whatever force the player to adhere a set of morals put forth by the game, rather than their own, and there is inevitably going to be some contradiction at some point, which will result in a break in immersion.

 

[A Weary Exile]

Someone with an undeserved sense of superiority who can't take a joke.

Ooookay...I got the joke.
In return, I made one.
I'll just go ahead and add 10+ asshole points to your account, though.

Yay I'm only five away from acheiving the rank of Dickhead!

 

[Mcface]

It upsets me when I commit mass genocide, its always ME that's the bad guys.

villagers had it coming man. their cows pollute the earth!

 

[hailmagus]

I had this in Mass Effect. You get renegade points for killing the indoctrinated Salarians on Virmire. I still can't work out why, they were brainwashed slaves, basically, how is killing them evil?

Yeah, that made me laugh. What's worse is when you:

Spoiler

have to choose whether or not to kill the Rachni queen. I mean, seriously, you get paragon points for letting the thing go, when you know it might still be dangerous and without even checking with your superiors! It's one of the most irresponsible things Sheperd does and you get rewarded for it!

Killing is wrong... The games know that, and they try to imprint it in your mind. Unless something's hostile towards you... don't kill it/him/her/them.