I can't stand this argument. First and foremost I have never had an attachment to the Superman character and I saw the original movies way too recently to have nostalgia for them, but in my eyes as a long term Cinephile and Christopher Nolan/David S. Goyer fan this movie is pandering dreck that desperately wants to be taken seriously but also contains a freaking rediculous pseudoscience Doomsday device and can't go ten seconds without cramming in useless, badly shot action scenes that do nothing but detract from any kind of drama the movie wants to make. The characters are one note without having the good sense to be remotely entertaining. And the usually competent Zack Snyder can't keep the camera still for 5 seconds. The Donner films held up better decades after they were intended to be watched than this movie did on my second viewing because Richard Donner knew how to film a movie. This thing doesn't even hold up against previous summer superhero movie Ironman3 since that actually grappled with personal issues and semi complex themes while this movie deals with neither. It just makes drawn out excuses for the big stupid way to long fist fight at the end. Also Superman returns was in no way panned by critics though it was called out for being a weaker immitation of the originals which makes me confident the originals would be similarly acclaimed now as they were then. . This movie was dark and serious only its colors and lack of personality.
I like the movie because it's darker and more grittier. Because of that, the feeling "hope" it puts so much emphasis on feels greater. If the movie was some "happy-puppy" movie, it wouldn't have the same weight for me. I think they did a good job with this. For the longest of time, I actualy like Superman.
Superman should fail, he should make mistakes. I think it does make him more human and more relatable. And ofcourse the action was great. I think Zack Snyder did a great job with the films direction. Writing had some holes, but I could look past those.
And as far as the shocking twist (no pun intended), Superman literally had no other options, and he didn't have time to think of one. And doing that destroyed him. He wasn't stoic about it, or making an awkward joke like Iron Man or Capt. America would be, he broke down. I don't mind seeing Superman pushed to those lengths, as long as it is clearly shown that this is something that will never be okay for him. I firmly believe that will be the last time we see Superman pushed to such lengths in this series.
Tony Stark's wise-cracking is mostly a defense mechanism. He hates showing signs of weakness and vulnerability to anyone (other than Pepper Potts, really), so even in the worst of times he tries to reassure himself up with his humor, results may vary whether it works or not.
...wait, are you implying that Captain America "makes awkward jokes"?? Erm...which alternate universe Captain America are YOU talking about? I mean he may say uplifting jokey stuff to lighten the mood a bit, but Tony Stark he is not.
As for the scene in question:
That neck snap scene didn't really even matter because not even 10 minutes earlier he barely batted an eye when destroying the ship full of Kryptonian Matrix eggs thingys. Even going as far as saying "Krypton Had Its Chance" before blasting away. Honestly throughout the WHOLE movie he doesn't seem to give much of a fuck about Krypton anyways, especially at that point. But when it gets to the end, NOW suddenly he's all hesitant and Weepy McWeepster over having to kill Zod? So what, it's easier to mass murder faceless lives you can't see than it is to have to do it with your bare hands? Is that what they're going for? As long as I don't have to put a face to the person I'm killing, it's okay for me to throw caution to the wind?
Or was it just forced lame writing? Imma have to go with lame writing...
So basically you are saying that if you go into a sperm bank and destroy some of the samples (let's say those pieces were given by people who are dead now just to paint a better parallel) then you've actually killed people?
And as far as the shocking twist (no pun intended), Superman literally had no other options, and he didn't have time to think of one. And doing that destroyed him. He wasn't stoic about it, or making an awkward joke like Iron Man or Capt. America would be, he broke down. I don't mind seeing Superman pushed to those lengths, as long as it is clearly shown that this is something that will never be okay for him. I firmly believe that will be the last time we see Superman pushed to such lengths in this series.
Tony Stark's wise-cracking is mostly a defense mechanism. He hates showing signs of weakness and vulnerability to anyone (other than Pepper Potts, really), so even in the worst of times he tries to reassure himself up with his humor, results may vary whether it works or not.
...wait, are you implying that Captain America "makes awkward jokes"?? Erm...which alternate universe Captain America are YOU talking about? I mean he may say uplifting jokey stuff to lighten the mood a bit, but Tony Stark he is not.
As for the scene in question:
That neck snap scene didn't really even matter because not even 10 minutes earlier he barely batted an eye when destroying the ship full of Kryptonian Matrix eggs thingys. Even going as far as saying "Krypton Had Its Chance" before blasting away. Honestly throughout the WHOLE movie he doesn't seem to give much of a fuck about Krypton anyways, especially at that point. But when it gets to the end, NOW suddenly he's all hesitant and Weepy McWeepster over having to kill Zod? So what, it's easier to mass murder faceless lives you can't see than it is to have to do it with your bare hands? Is that what they're going for? As long as I don't have to put a face to the person I'm killing, it's okay for me to throw caution to the wind?
Or was it just forced lame writing? Imma have to go with lame writing...
Regarding Superman destroying the Kryptonian Matrix.
It was just a hatchery, a machine to create life. The only way to create life was to use the codex, which was embedded in him when he was a infant by Jor-El and also why Zod wanted him for.
Essentielly the Kryptonian Matrix was just a machine, like a womb, he never did "kill" anyone since there was nothing there anyway.
Wait wait, how was World War Z "abysmal"? Are we talking "not as good as the book"? Are we talking "it's not legendary like Zombieland"? Exactly to what standard are we talking that "abysmal" is an appropriate qualifier?
It IS nostalgia googles, but of a different sort. Even those who have never seen the Donner films view Superman as this incorruptable pure pureness invincible character, the embodiment of all that is good, the Donner films merely popularized this perception. As a result most people expect him to be like this all the time and few are willing to accept him as anything else. I've seen all the complaints about MOS around here, and most of them are just people complaining that Supes isn't the beacon of hope and justice they think he's "supposed" to be, even being so makes him a worse character. The other complaints, like yours, are whining about the fight scene being over the top, drawn out, and that the whole movie is just an excuse for it, as if that wasn't the best part of the movie, or the characters being "one note" despite the fact that MOS is a 2 hour long movie, not a T.V. series or long running comic book where the characters have both the time and reason to act differently.
Arppis said:
I like the movie because it's darker and more grittier. Because of that, the feeling "hope" it puts so much emphasis on feels greater. If the movie was some "happy-puppy" movie, it wouldn't have the same weight for me. I think they did a good job with this. For the longest of time, I actualy like Superman.
Superman should fail, he should make mistakes. I think it does make him more human and more relatable. And ofcourse the action was great. I think Zack Snyder did a great job with the films direction. Writing had some holes, but I could look past those.
I agree on all counts. That purely good invincible character that the general public believes Superman has to be all the time has always been boring to me. That, and that hope and justice only mean something if the world isn't always filled to the brim with it already.
Captcha: against the grain
Yes captcha, I am against what most other people think, and I'm better for it.
What I have gathered from seeing the style of the Nolan/Goyer team is the inevitable Justice League movie's tone is going to be gritty, realistic, dark, blah, blah, blah. I am only making an educated guess on that of course but it seems like this is what they are shooting for in their take on the DC universe. My opinion once again based on the previous films is it can work at times; Dark Knight is still my favorite batman film so far. But as Jim Sterling said in one of his Jimquisition shows about dark gritty stories: in order for a story to be well rounded and carry emotional weight sometimes you have to "lighten the fuck up!"
I'm growing increasingly convinced you have never seen another movie in your life. You can have great well rounded character in two hours. Thousands and thousands of movies have done it. Other films have relatively one note characters that are vaguely entertaining to watch as opposed to this. You can like this movie. I'm not taking it away from you but your pathetic self congratulation for covering your ears whenever anyone has a opinion opposite to yours is as tiresome as it is laughable.
Pal, I could easily turn most of what you said right back at you. "I'm growing increasingly convinced you have never seen another movie aside from the Donner films in your life." I've been saying this entire time that Superman hasn't been a invincible perfect boyscout for a LOOOOONG time, and people like you are just "covering their ears" and saying something akin to "SupermanMUSTbeperfectNOEXCEPTIONS!!!" over and over again, which "is as tiresome as it is laugable". The fact that people everywhere aren't praising MOS for making such poor character much more relatable even if they panned everything else proves this. Oh, and characters tend to be one note when they only have 10 minutes total of screentime, which all the characters except Superman, Jor El, and Zod only have around that much, and all 3 of them are significantly more nuanced. I bet you and anyone you know acts pretty one note in the span of 10-15 minutes.
One more thing, the Donner films were TERRIBLE, downright awful, even going by the standards of the time not to mention now. A boring invincible protagonist that can do things like TURN BACK TIME whenever he feels like it, a plot that was cliched even back then, hammy lines with poor acting, and villains with no more deeper motivation for their actions than either "I want more money" or "I want to RULE THE WORLD!!!" If those movies had been released today instead of 40 years ago they would be considered some of the worst movies that have ever been made, especially the last one, and if you took off your nostalgia goggles for a minute you'd realize it.
Not that I expect you or anyone like you to actually LISTEN to anything I've said on this post or any other, you couldn't justify your baseless hatred of this movie anymore if you actually did.
I still feel that the big punch-out at the end wasn't Superman "forgetting" to rescue people. Zod had him on the ropes the entire time. There was never a free moment for him to rescue civies, and if he tried to take one, it probably would have ended with Zod killing even more people. By the time Superman and Zod have their big fight, hundreds of people had already died. He couldn't fix that, certainly not with Superpowered psychopath raging around. Superman had to focus on stopping Zod first and foremost.
And as far as the shocking twist (no pun intended), Superman literally had no other options, and he didn't have time to think of one. And doing that destroyed him. He wasn't stoic about it, or making an awkward joke like Iron Man or Capt. America would be, he broke down. I don't mind seeing Superman pushed to those lengths, as long as it is clearly shown that this is something that will never be okay for him. I firmly believe that will be the last time we see Superman pushed to such lengths in this series.
Awww thats so sad. You have to ignore everything somebody says so you can enjoy a movie they don't. See we adults can watch a movie and have someone else think differently than them and be okay with it and understand others have different perspectives and that as long as they provide reasons their opinion is not baseless. I like tons of stuff no one else does, but I can deal with that and hopefully, someday you will be able to as well and let me finish with this. I was beyond hyped to see a more complex version of superman in theaters, but that was not what I saw. I saw the same old boyscout put in a context where it doesn't work.
Are you going to continue doing my work for me? As before, I can turn most everything you just said back at you. "You have to ignore everything somebody says so you can hate on a movie they don't."
ImSkeletor said:
See we adults can watch a movie and have someone else think differently than them and be okay with it and understand others have different perspectives and that as long as they provide reasons their opinion is not baseless.
Heh, that's one of the funniest things I've seen in a while. I HAVE provided perfectly valid reasons for my opinion and YOU have been anything but okay with it, and your own reasons for YOUR opinion have yet to be anything but baseless.
ImSkeletor said:
I was beyond hyped to see a more complex version of superman in theaters, but that was not what I saw. I saw the same old boyscout put in a context where it doesn't work.
If you didn't see it, you didn't see it, but it wasn't just there, but right in front of you staring you in the face. I also was beyond hyped to see a more complex Superman, and that's what I got. At least compared to the Donner films, this Superman is par for the course everywhere else these days. I saw a Superman with deep seated emotional issues struggling to find his place in a world that he doesn't really belong in, a world that he can easily bring under his heel at anytime and constantly fighting the urge to avoid doing that. I saw a Superman that for once was forced to fight against someone who could actually beat him, and trying his hardest to avoid killing those people until he finally had no choice but to do just that. Of course, this is what the comics and DCAU Superman was like, so they pulled that off well enough.
"You liking the movie is fine its a subjective thing, your dismissal of others is pathetic"
Heh, says the only person in this conversation that's actually doing that. Even if what you say is true, look in a mirror for a good while before you judge me.
Fine, go, but ignoring me and walking away won't change the fact that I've been the only one this entire time with anything even resembling an open mind here and you haven't.
Oh, and I'm flagging you for insulting me, another thing you've done and I avoided doing, not that there hasn't been a great temptation do so.
"You liking the movie is fine its a subjective thing, your dismissal of others is pathetic"
Heh, says the only person in this conversation that's actually doing that. Even if what you say is true, look in a mirror for a good while before you judge me.
Fine, go, but ignoring me and walking away won't change the fact that I've been the only one this entire time with anything even resembling an open mind here and you haven't.
Oh, and I'm flagging you for insulting me, another thing you've done and I avoided doing, not that there hasn't been a great temptation do so.
Alright I have come back to apologize for the insult. I stand by everything I said but that. That was too much. I posted in anger which was a mistake. Ill take my probation or suspension or whatever. Cause I deserve it. You brick walling me drove me crazy but is not an excuse.
"You liking the movie is fine its a subjective thing, your dismissal of others is pathetic"
Heh, says the only person in this conversation that's actually doing that. Even if what you say is true, look in a mirror for a good while before you judge me.
Fine, go, but ignoring me and walking away won't change the fact that I've been the only one this entire time with anything even resembling an open mind here and you haven't.
Oh, and I'm flagging you for insulting me, another thing you've done and I avoided doing, not that there hasn't been a great temptation do so.
Alright I have come back to apologize for the insult. I stand by everything I said but that. That was too much. I posted in anger which was a mistake. Ill take my probation or suspension or whatever. Cause I deserve it. You brick walling me drove me crazy but its not an excuse.
Personally I don't even understand the problem at all. Don't get me wrong, I think Man of Steel is a deeply flawed movie, but the killing shouldn't be what bother people.
Has anybody (And by this, I mean Bob as well) even seen Superman II?
Because in that movie, Superman kills Zod. Not only that, but he does it in a much more callous and evil way. There is no 'If I don't kill him he'll fry that family alive' - he just does it because he can.
No no, he just depowers the Kryptonians without their knowledge and then this happens:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUORL-bvwA0
So he plays alongs, instead of just telling them they may as well surrender. Then - knowing full well that Zod is now as weak as a normal human - he crushes every bone in his hand and throw him down a bottomless pit.
What more, Lois joins in the fun, throwing a wise crack before in turn killing Feora (sp?) and the scene ends with Lois and Clark laughing, smiling and embracing each other like the psychopath that they are. Yay family fun!
Is it okay because they're on a brightly colored set and it's a soaring Williams' score in the background? Because what Superman does in that movie is cold, calculated, first degree murder. And he doesn't seem to give a fuck about it. More importantly, he didn't have to do it.
And let's not even get started on Lois here...
In the much 'darker' Man of Steel he at least tries to reasons with him and only kill him when given no real choice... and then you can tell he feels it. Granted, it only take him a few minutes to get over it, but that's mile better than not showing an hint of regret like he's freaking Dexter Morgan.
Again, I still think Man of Steel is a bad movie, but this isn't the first time he kill on the big screen... why is it a big deal now? And why are people talking like the Donner Superman could do no wrong? He obviously did.
the man of steel had so many plot holes, lois used as a plot device through the whole movie, missed the entire idea of superman, missed what the character is about so utterly and completely.
Its the same problem with the dark knight rises, nolan and co do not get the characters, they do not care about the characters, a batman that just quits being batman after a year or two? over a girl that hated his guts? emo bruce common. does so many unbatman things, its darn near silly to call it it a batman movie, as it is to call man of steel a superman movie.
mos is a mess, the fights were spectacular as hell, the plot was garbage, the characters were garbage, the sheer wanton destruction is gorgeous porn would have love a goku vs buu done that way with whole cities getting leveled, but superman is supposed to have a bit more of a care for the puny humans around him, not just lois and some no name scrub human family after 100s of thousands have been killed in his little slug fests with zod and his merry men.
and love how jorel manged to put the super suit on a ship that was over 10,000 years old. who writes this stuff?
I haven't seen Man of Steel yet, but I've been thinking about how I would do a Superman trilogy. Now this isn't any better than trying to rewrite the Star Wars prequels, but I got some time to kill at work so bear with me.
Movie One: Start with Kal-El's baby pod landing in the Kent farmstead. Show scenes of Clark Kent's upbringing, but don't dwell on it too much. Eventually, Clark wanders off to find out who he is. He finds the Fortress of Solitude, finds a bunch of prerecorded messages by Jor-El telling Clark he's the sole survivor of Krypton, and that he needs to save his new home from the fate that befell Krypton. But Clark is kinda scared to see what that actually happened. So instead he goes to Metropolis, becomes mild mannered news reporter Clark Kent, and uses his superpowers to save folks from burning buildings and such. This goes on for a montage until Zod shows up and starts rambing that they need to militarize the entire planet. Superman says that that isn't happening, and the two have a big punch up outside the Fortress of Solitude until Superman punts Zod onto Venus (where the Greenhouse effect traps him.) But in the fights aftermath, Supes finally realizes he needs to see how Krypton was destroyed:
It was invaded by Darkseid
Superman realises that he needs to come up with a plan to defeat this far-off foe. But in the meantime, the movie Stinger shows that Clark Kent has been asigned to cover the Presidential Campaign of one Alexis Luthor.
Movie Two: Lex Luthor is now President. Lex wants Superman out of the picture because he's fundamentally opposed to a Magic Space Alien in Tights being the living embodiment of human behavior ("Our flaws are what make us great!" or some such nonsense). So Lex starts a dust up with someone on Superman's B-list of emenies and requests Superman sort it all out-hoping to arrange that he gets killed in the prossess. The whole movie is an allegory for the importance of overcoming ideological differences, as it ends with Superman and Lex forming a sort of detente.
Movie Three: Darkseid at last shows up. Superman's plan for defeating him? The Justice League. Rather than have separate movies for Wonder Woman, Green Lanturn, and Flash, introduce them here to ease audiences into the interpretation of the character you are going for. Nows the time to go for the big fight-to-end-all0fights rather than blow your load in the first movie. If you are feeling especially frisky, toss Doomsday in and watch the fireworks. In any case, Superman wins gby the smallest of margins.
that's the stuff that movies are made of!
i don't need my beloved comic converted into a movie
- i want some more about that character but eventually in another medium...
so the intent is not "bringing stories from a comic to the big screen" but filming a new comic-issue by a new author...
(how many different authors did you say "amazing Spiderman" ,who still counts as ONE SERIES, has? around 10? lets not even start on bats or all the alternate dimensions...)
that's how i see the Dark Knight Triology...
Nolan did his own Batman Comic Series in which
Batman kills Two-Face
but you may want to keep the basic idea of the character... else there wouldn't be much sense even taking said character...
(exept you are too lazy to characterize [bad - because the movie could't stand on its own]or want to play with the expectations linked to the image an established character has in the heads of the viewers [iron man 3 - good - used as a device to tell a story - provoking something in the audience])
so in the end i think it is about taking a character, putting him in a situation and seeing how he deals with it.
...and hereby showing who he is....
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
