Supersoldiers

[KDR_11k]

Considering how out of shape desk officers tend to be compared to the young, strong and mostly stupid grunts I don't think supersoldiers would change the equation much. What do you do with a killing machine during peace time? They already have that problem with their trained soldiers who can't really reintegrate into society.

However a more believable and scalable alternative to mutant humans are robots. Noone's going to wonder why a robot has quad miniguns or a crotch-mounted beam cannon. Why bother augmenting flesh that isn't really fit for dealing with modern weapon damage when you could instead have heavily armored robots that are practically bulletproof? During peacetimes you just shut them off and unless you've got total idiots in charge of them you won't see a rebellion either. Plus welding some metal together is much faster than waiting for tissue to grow in a lab.

 

[Spacelord]

Spoiler: spoilered for brevity

I saw a seminar by the Monterey Institute that studied the strategic, tactical and military effectiveness of nuclear weapons in a global historical context (before you say "nuclear bombs didn't exist before 1945" well cities like Carthage were still destroyed to the same extent as nuclear bombs but by a large army).

Nuclear bombs are inflexible and mostly useless weapons, they never won any wars as it should be noted even after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, analysis of the minutes of the meeting where the Japanese high command where they finally decided on surrender it showed nuclear bombs was not their concern but the direct threat of invasion by the Americans but more importantly the Russians too that had just joined the war.

Nuclear weapons are useless against conventional armed forces or really any infantry based military. Nukes had only really been good at destroying cities and ports, in military terms that means attacking the infrastructure the families and support personnel of front line troops.

But super soldiers, or some scientific development that could quickly, efficiently and effectively create massive armies would be a far greater advantage than a nuclear weapon. Unlike a nuclear bomb, they won't just destroy a country, they can occupy it.

Current armies are constantly limited by how there are a finite number of men of fighting age, biologically it takes a long time to replace them and of even greater importance is the difficulty in TRAINING all of them to a high enough level.

If the process of making soldiers could be automated, it would be relatively easy to accelerate it. So even a relatively small country could quickly make a highly trained army of hundreds of thousands if not millions.

The Emperor of Star Wars could not have taken over the galaxy with super weapons like nuclear bombs or even the Death Star. The greatest asset he ever had and the only way he could have siezed power was with a massive clone army.

Yahtzee, you don't need a whip to enforce discipline in clone soldiers. You *are* "playing God" here so to speak so it would be possible through genetics or conditioning to have your clone soldier quite simply have unquestioning love and devotion to their leader, enough love to consciously give their life for him. No need for a whip, just ask them and like good little drones they will fight to the death and still be happy.

I suspect within out lifetime (assuming there are mostly young people on this forum) the next great "Weapon of Mass Destruction" will not be merely a bigger bomb or more toxic gas but a method of mass producing soldiers, the BEST soldiers, mass produced like AK47s and so much that any country could make them and yes, store them in a box (in stasis = low cost) to unleash at any moment.

Carthage was raised the the ground, an ancient city completely destroyed by an army following orders. Historically, man himself has always been the greatest weapon of mass destruction.

Nuclear Bombs destroy, but only armies can win wars, only armies can conquer. And nukes can't even prevent that.

From my experience of posting elaborately and eloquently while eliciting zero response, I'd like to take the time to commend you on your beautifully illustrated point. I'd like to console you with my post by saying that I took the time to read all of it and that I truly appreciate your input into the issue at hand. And that I hope your point will be appreciated by the community to the extent that it deserves.

That said: it has been my experience as well that such eloquence is seldom rewarded in the way of response and appreciation. Despite this, I hope you'll retain this level of depth in your future posts, if only to humour my selfish hankering for in-depth discussion.

If you don't mind, I'd like to add you to my friends list, and I'd be honored if you would oblige me.

 

[mitrovarr]

I've always thought the worst thing about the supersoldier plot, aside from the overuse, is that the supersoldiers are always an idiot's idea of a perfect soldier. They're usually big, strong, dumb, slow, and difficult to kill. The thing is, in the modern military, those disadvantages are huge (particularly the dumb) and the advantages aren't that big of a deal. Big and strong just makes them able to carry a bit more equipment than normal, and there's only so 'difficult to kill' you can get before it becomes stupid. You're only working with meat here, and modern battlefields are covered in weapons designed to shoot through inches of steel. You can't reasonably make your supersoldier harder to shoot through than a tank, and the tank is at least not driven by a genetically modified steroidal idiot.

It would be interesting to see a game where the supersoldiers were actually something a modern military would really appreciate - smarter, healthier, faster, and with improved senses. Of course you couldn't reasonably make them an opponent in that game, because you wouldn't have a chance - which is what should happen when a regular soldier goes up against soldiers that have actually been improved, not just roided up and lobotomized.

 

[DeadlyYellow]

I resent being called stupid.

I'll settle for cheap, stingy, or miserly.

I do love your last idea for your super soldier game. There aren't enough senile old men as playable characters in video games.

 

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Oddly enough, super soldiers make more sense than having giant bombs that make a poisonous and glassy landscape yet we have the bombs. We don't drop giant bombs for a reason, we actually know better. Besides, any large missile launch is destined to trigger other large missile launches, killing everybody.

As for peacetime, we just let the super soldiers battle each other in extreme sports. Huge money maker.

 

[DeathWyrmNexus]

From my experience of posting elaborately and eloquently while eliciting zero response, I'd like to take the time to commend you on your beautifully illustrated point. I'd like to console you with my post by saying that I took the time to read all of it and that I truly appreciate your input into the issue at hand. And that I hope your point will be appreciated by the community to the extent that it deserves.

That said: it has been my experience as well that such eloquence is seldom rewarded in the way of response and appreciation. Despite this, I hope you'll retain this level of depth in your future posts, if only to humour my selfish hankering for in-depth discussion.

If you don't mind, I'd like to add you to my friends list, and I'd be honored if you would oblige me.

Seconded.

 

[Logic 0]

You have to make the generals stronger than the soliders.

 

[The Sorrow]

You have to make the generals stronger than the soliders.

And then you'd have to have a President who can bench-press a steamroller.
Then a Congress full of guys with biceps the size of the dome from EPCOT.

It's a vicious cycle.

 

[Valiance]

"writes the back page column for PC Gamer,"

Not really, I remember he -used to-, but they have Evan (their intern) do Backspace now.

 

[SilentScope001]

It would be interesting to see a game where the supersoldiers were actually something a modern military would really appreciate - smarter, healthier, faster, and with improved senses. Of course you couldn't reasonably make them an opponent in that game, because you wouldn't have a chance - which is what should happen when a regular soldier goes up against soldiers that have actually been improved, not just roided up and lobotomized.

You just have to out-smart the intelligent supersoldier. Insurgencies do that all the time, otherwise the technologically inferior terrorist groups in Afghanistan and Iraq would have been destroyed by now. Your supersoilder seems to have a disturbing weakness to IEDs. Just don't fight "conventionally", and you'll be fine.

No, you want a REAL super-solider, get one trained up in "winning hearts and minds" and setting up development projects so that people love these soldiers and love being occupied by The Big Brother Superpower. Sure, the they'll die by the hundreds once the player comes in, but that's because their skills aren't focused on killing the player directly, they're focused on brainwashing all the NPCs to not support the player to begin with. Perhaps a rather dubious trait when one could just kill those NPCs who don't support the player, but maybe there should be a mechanic where, if you get NPCs' assistance, you have a greater chance of getting new weapons and surviving.

 

[Treblaine]

If you don't mind, I'd like to add you to my friends list, and I'd be honored if you would oblige me.

As for peacetime, we just let the super soldiers battle each other in extreme sports. Huge money maker.

Thanks for the appreciation Spacelord and DeathWyrmNexus, I'm just happy someone read it and thought something of it. I befriended you back

Also, DeathWyrmNexus, super-soldier extreme sports sounds perfect, make money, refine physical ability and on a positive note, put the minds of leaders away from war and conflict and onto entertainment and competition.

If you think about it, nukes are almost obsolete now. The main reason we have nukes is because we need them to protect us from a nuclear strike from other countries who need them to protect them from nuclear strikes from other countries... what!?

But even in that capacity they are limited as though in the past (right up to the late 80's) the only way to deal with an enemy's extensive missile fields of ICBMs in deep missile silos was to dedicate almost all of your own ICBMs to land dozens of their nukes in the missile fields to crater and "chew up" the silos out of the ground, hopefully before they launched.

But ICBMs are big, satellites and radar can spot them coming early enough to launch their own ICBMs from the silos in time.
A better solution would be the perfect fusion of modern technology: Stealth Aircraft and Precision Guided Munitions. A stealth bomber can approach a missile silo undetected for a sudden and surprise strike, a 2000lbs (one ton) bomb or two can easily score a direct hit on the concrete cover of the silo where it will destroy it, unable to open so the nukes and missile are sealed inside. Clean, quick, simple and efficient.

Nukes are not weapons of military necessity, they are now only good for one thing, mass destruction of populations, they are weapons of revenge and intimidation. No amount of nukes will "win" a war for a country, only make sure that both sides will lose.

It would be interesting to see a game where the supersoldiers were actually something a modern military would really appreciate - smarter, healthier, faster, and with improved senses.

You probably want to check out the super-clone-soldiers in the FEAR (2005), as very few of them are the "tank" type as most just seem to be super-elite SWAT or SAS type totally dedicated to the art of manoeuvre and precise head shots from assault rifles. The concept you get from the game is these are like elite special forces only they have "grown" thousands of them, an entire battalion and they are completely loyal and incorruptible as they are controlled by psychic means through an Akira like psychic commander who "sees" the whole battle-space through every soldiers' mind and they operate as one perfect hive mind.

Of course, that is fine until the psychic commander goes crazy (I'm talking eating peoples' faces crazy) and starts an insurrection, the main mission in FEAR is to capture or kill the rogue psychic commander before he unleashes a terrible power.

Any game that claims to have good AI (even Crysis) needs to compare itself to FEAR. The AI is hardly genius, but it is so aggressive, they shoot fast, accurately and never miss, the slow-mo mechanic in the game is not a gimmick, it is entirely necessary for you to survive as the enemy flank on you from both sides, tossing grenades with deadly precision. I'm pretty good at FPS games but I don't stand a chance without slow-mo. Quicksave/quickload is also important.

 

[Artemus_Cain]

Yeah, I think this whole supersoldier thing went off the deep end when that god awful Jean Claude Van Damme movie Universal Soldier came out.

 

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Also, DeathWyrmNexus, super-soldier extreme sports sounds perfect, make money, refine physical ability and on a positive note, put the minds of leaders away from war and conflict and onto entertainment and competition.

"Nuclear rant I agree with" (DW EDIT)

Nukes are pretty much the Gun in a Fist Fight. It is the point where you are tired of rules and just want to kill the fucker. While I can agree with that mentality, ugh, it would be hell on politics. The nuke just isn't a solution anymore until aliens come to conquer us.

Oddly enough, your follow up about the extreme sports reminds me of the rise of the Juicer in Rifts. XD

 

[TheMirai]

Unless I'm mistaken The Joker was paying someone to create supersoldier venom for the express purpose of supersoldiering all of Gotham City's normal residents because it would be hilarious.

Not that supersoldiers aren't totally trite and bullshit stupid, but I just wanted to throw that out there. AA actually handles it quite a bit better than most (which isn't saying much, I admit).

 

[Vallis]

- In the distant future, archaeologists uncover a mysterious ancient building called a 'Wal-Mart,' and, to their astonishment, discover that there are living people inside. Having been sealed inside their place of employment for thousands of years, the Walmartians have evolved into a race of giants, gifted with super strength to help carry lots of bulk items out of the warehouse, eight feet tall to aid with the stacking of shelves, and possessing a language consisting entirely of inane greetings. They decide to take over the world for want of anything better to do.

Yhatzee!

I thought that this was the plot of Killer7?

 

[WindKnight]

You have to make the generals stronger than the soliders.

And then you'd have to have a President who can bench-press a steamroller.
Then a Congress full of guys with biceps the size of the dome from EPCOT.

It's a vicious cycle.

I think the most interesting use of super soldiers is the warhammer 40,000, where the super soldiers are space marines, the 'generals' were the Primarchs (as marines where to humans, were the Primarchs to marines) and 'the president' was the Emperor, A god-like being who was immortal, hyper intelligent and capable of insane feats of strength and endurance. Plus, the Primarchs were effectively genetically engineered sons of the emperor, and he treated them as such.

The irony being the eventual inevitable rebellion (the Horus Heresy) ultimately resulted from the Primarch who wanted to launch a blood-and-fire holy crusade proclaiming the Emperor a god was told 'Oi, stop that, I'm NOT a god' by the Emperor, before finding some other, less pleasant, things more than willing to accept his worship.

 

[Lono Shrugged]

I want a game where Super Soldier does not mean: "Can take 3 more bullets to head than normal Soldier"

And according to the movie "Soldier" between wars ultra loyal super soldiers kill lesser soldiers for the amusement of the generals. Which to be honest is what I would do.
That or hire them out as non union builders or something.

 

[Bassman_2]

Joker just wants to cause mayhem. Once Gotham crumbles, he will either move on or continue oppressing survivers. He'll cut off people legs and have them perform magic tricks for him. If the enhanced criminals turn on him he can just inject the drug into himself. He'll still be as strong as any other, but with his mind intact he could take them on, just as he would take on regular trained guards on his own.

 

[Knight Templar]

I never understood the hate for supersoldiers. I mean it makes sense to me, in the context anyway.

You know what might be a fun game? A goverment agency hatches a plan to create a bunch of supersoldiers (stay with me). Then they lose control of them, and you play as one of these supersoldiers.
You have to kill your way through other now free supersoldiers as well as nameless-faceless yet strangely skilled spec-ops team members.

It would be the oppsite of FEAR, only without the creapy girl.

 

[Treblaine]

I don't know what all this nonsense about "what if they turn on their general?" as for thousands of years it has not been a problem for conventional armies as large groups have 'group-think', it is easy through propaganda to make the ranks love their leader, love them more than their own father (even, mein Fuhrer?). They don't follow their leader because he is the strongest, they do as he says precisely because he is not strong, they fight for him as they want to please him.

How about we take this angle, if these super soldiers were created to be expendable, doesn't that put them in the situation where the wider society wants to DESTROY them once they have no more use for them?
They are synthetic beings, they have no rights, being built up from the genetic level where the only thing they know and the only thing they love to fight, to kill, to conquer... they cannot be integrated back into society... they were never IN society!
That makes the very civilised society that made the super-soldiers their "enemy", they want to pull the plug on the program but like the Cylons, you cannot create life and expect it to just go away. It would not take much for a commander to convince his clone-army that they MUST fight and MUST make sacrifices because defeat would surely mean every single one of them would be exterminated.

The way the clone army of super soldiers would see it, their Leader is not their slave master, he is their LIBERATOR. Much like Big Boss united the discarded mercenaries of the world, even if these soldiers were capable of individual thought it would be suicide for any of them to step out of line.

Hell, if they just felt the slightest more empathy for their fellow super-soldiers then it would not be illogical for them to even sacrifice their own lives in kamikaze attacks... for the good of the hive.

See what is so terrifying about super soldiers is they make sense.