Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade; states can ban abortion

tstorm823

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self-defense self-defense defend herself.
defending themselves. self-defence defense
I didn't say "abortion is self-defense"
I guess you can keep arguing against something I didn't say, but it's not worth your time.
You can't come out with this shit and then claim that abortion is murder. You can't recognize the distinction between inducing labour and killing when it suits an exception you want to make, and then argue against it in any other case.
Inducing labor isn't always killing. A significant percentage of healthy births happen through induced labor these days. It is a method that can be used for both good and bad, like almost anything. There is always going to be a line somewhere, there is always going to be a distinction. As with many other things that you would take no issue with, I'm drawing the line at intent. Mens rea is an significant concept in criminal law which determines the sort of crime, if any, that has been committed. You can't possibly deny there is a distinct difference in intent between "I want this baby to live, but I might die if we do nothing" and "I don't want this baby".
Of all your failures to understand your political opponents, this might be the most striking.
Then ban elective abortions.
 

Terminal Blue

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I guess you can keep arguing against something I didn't say, but it's not worth your time.
Again, you used self defence as an analogy. I am pointing out to you that it is a bad analogy and using it as such is revealing of the underlying hypocrisy of your own belief system. We're not debating whether or not abortion is self-defence, we both agree it isn't, we are debating whether your use of that analogy is appropriate and what it says about your beliefs.

As with many other things that you would take no issue with, I'm drawing the line at intent. Mens rea is an significant concept in criminal law which determines the sort of crime, if any, that has been committed. You can't possibly deny there is a distinct difference in intent between "I want this baby to live, but I might die if we do nothing" and "I don't want this baby".
Firstly, because I have to point this out again, the person performing the abortion is likely not the one who is at any risk of dying. Aborting a pregnancy with complications serious enough to result in a high probability of maternal death is not something a person can do at home with some pills, and even if it was, someone still has to prescribe those pills. You insist on viewing this from the point of view of the mother (almost as if this entire thing is just some neurotic attempt to punish women for having sex) but she is not the only person involved or even the most important person involved. She is not the one making the decision or bearing the moral responsibility for that decision, in the scenario we are talking about you have already robbed her of that decision and thus that responsibility.

Secondly, the difference in intent between those two positions is irrelevant. Thoughtcrime is not real. Wishing death on someone is not a crime, and wanting them to live is not an excuse for killing them. Mens rea applies to the degree of conscious intent to commit the act itself. In this case, everyone involved knows that the fetus will die if removed. By deciding to proceed knowing that is the outcome, they are morally responsible for the outcome. It doesn't matter if they wish things were different. Despite your constant attempts to stigmatize women who have abortions , the fact is that anyone having or performing an abortion probably wishes things were different. It doesn't change the nature of the act or the moral responsibility involved.

Personally, I don't have this bizarre belief that an unborn fetus is a fully autonomous person because it obviously isn't, it's literally a part of someone else's body. Thus, I feel no pressing need to answer the question of whether removing it is murder or can be morally justified, that answer is ambiguous enough that an individual should be able to decide for themselves. You don't see it this way. You are utterly convinced that this act is murder and that everyone else should be made to conform to your beliefs in this regard, so why are you backing out now? If you cannot live with the cruelty of what you believe, why believe it?
 
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tstorm823

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Again, you used self defence as an analogy. I am pointing out to you that it is a bad analogy.
You're not arguing that it's a bad analogy, you're arguing as though I said the things are equal. It's like if I said "Ruby is to Red as Emerald is to Green" and you responded "Rubies aren't emeralds!"
Despite your constant attempts to stigmatize women who have abortions

it's literally a part of someone else's body.
Has anyone ever told you that you have an overactive imagination?
 

tstorm823

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This doesn't even begin to address the disconnect between your demented strawman and the actual position of your opponents.
Either I understand that you want heinous things to be legal, or I've misunderstood and you'd like them banned. Pick one.
 

Silvanus

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Either I understand that you want heinous things to be legal, or I've misunderstood and you'd like them banned. Pick one.
This is like the purest, almost cartoonish form of strawman. "Either you're evil or you agree with me". I thought you were trying to convince us that you did understand your opponents' position?
 

Trunkage

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This is like the purest, almost cartoonish form of strawman. "Either you're evil or you agree with me". I thought you were trying to convince us that you did understand your opponents' position?
Well, I can make it known that I do not have the same morality as Tstorm. They can call me evil all they want

As far understanding the other side, the Bible doesn't talk about it and does distinguish that a mother's life is more valuable than a fetus. Its no wonder Tstorm carves out an exception for the mother. Nor can I fathom thinking a fertilised egg is alive like a human

All that is being done is twisting words to suit a political standpoint. But that's fine. Other people can have whatever opinion. It only become a problem when an opinion is being forced onto those that don't believe it.

Again, being called evil is just an empty threat because that's the only argument they've got
 

tstorm823

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This is like the purest, almost cartoonish form of strawman. "Either you're evil or you agree with me". I thought you were trying to convince us that you did understand your opponents' position?
It may very well be within our lifetimes that society looks back on abortion the same way we think of historical infanticide. You're gonna have to get used to being seen as evil.
 

Terminal Blue

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You're not arguing that it's a bad analogy, you're arguing as though I said the things are equal.
Now who is arguing with things I haven't said..

I'm arguing that applying the logic of self-defence to this situation is ridiculous on a number of levels. Firstly because the decision and thus responsibility does not lie with the person who is at risk of dying, but more fundamentally because we are not talking about two separate people. Again, if we were then one would be assaulting the other by virtue of being inside them without their consent.

Has anyone ever told you that you have an overactive imagination?
Yes, I do. It's part of having ADHD. However, it also doesn't make me wrong.

You have literally claimed that the purpose of elective abortions is to kill fetuses and that people who have elective abortions want those fetuses to die. That is a horrendous mischaracterization of the motivations or typical emotional reaction to having an abortion.

A fetus is part of someone else's body in a very literal, biological sense. This is why separating it usually kills it. It exists in an inherently liminal state between being an organ and being a separate organism, a condition that only resolves a few hours after birth as a baby's metabolism accelerates to allow it to maintain homeostasis (this is why newborn babies need to be kept warm). Again, we are dealing with the generation of human beings themselves, there are going to be states that are difficult to resolve into clear categories. That's why a degree of epistemic humility is necessary.

It may very well be within our lifetimes that society looks back on abortion the same way we think of historical infanticide. You're gonna have to get used to being seen as evil.
This will only be true if the "pro-life" position finds some way to substantiate itself beyond vacuous and easily critiqued dogma. It has not, hence why it has not gained any significant ground outside of the evangelical heartlands of the US and parts of Africa. Even majority-Buddhist countries, which have far clearer cultural and historical reasons to oppose abortion on religious grounds, have not fallen into this bizarre ideological hole.

Nonetheless, I agree in the sense that infanticide is a historical practice that has been largely superseded by better options (like abortion). One day it's very likely that there will be better options than abortion. But I can assure you, by the point that happens noone will remember or care about you or your ideology unless you can find a way to imbue it with some substance it currently lacks.
 
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Silvanus

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It may very well be within our lifetimes that society looks back on abortion the same way we think of historical infanticide. You're gonna have to get used to being seen as evil.
I'm already used to Christians viewing me as evil, thank you, because I love people of the same sex.

Edit: Ha, remember when tstorm said it was sad that someone else's rhetoric was just hatred? 😂
 
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Silvanus

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Do you guys not realize that nobody is right about abortion and you're not going to convince opposing sides to change their mind?
I'm not really trying to convince tstorm about abortion. I'm arguing that one can't credibly claim they understand their opponents, and then just call them "evil" repeatedly.
 

tstorm823

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Do you guys not realize that nobody is right about abortion and you're not going to convince opposing sides to change their mind?
I am right. I may not convince them, but I am right.
This will only be true if the "pro-life" position finds some way to substantiate itself beyond vacuous and easily critiqued dogma.
You see the situation backwards. The idea that a person doesn't exist until later through pregnancy or after birth is the easily critiqued millennia old dogma. The last century and a half of medical technological advancements have given us clear ways to distinguish a fetus as distinct from the mother and show the continuity of existence back to conception.
 

Phoenixmgs

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I am right. I may not convince them, but I am right.
For yourself, yes.

Both sides, aka everyone, find that both bodily autonomy is very very important and also find that murder is very very bad. The issue is that when you have both of those very important and passionate morals basically colliding, some people will say bodily autonomy supersedes murder and some people will say murder supersedes bodily autonomy in the case of abortion. It's almost impossible to change someone's mind on that as both are valid positions and very high-level morals. And then you can't really even compromise on that because if you do, then essentially both sides both simultaneously win and lose. It's essentially a zero-sum situation combined with a something people are extremely passionate about. Both sides need to accept losing on it basically, unless there's some type of medical invention that makes the abortion situation never even happen to begin with.
 

Silvanus

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some people will say bodily autonomy supersedes murder and some people will say murder supersedes bodily autonomy in the case of abortion.
Well, more likely is that proponents will say it doesn't constitute murder in the first place.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Well, more likely is that proponents will say it doesn't constitute murder in the first place.
That's just the mental gymnastics they do. Regardless of pro-choice or pro-life, someone watching a movie where a pregnant woman gets killed has a very different reaction than if it was just a normal woman.

Also, Bill Burr's cake analogy.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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It may very well be within our lifetimes that society looks back on abortion the same way we think of historical infanticide. You're gonna have to get used to being seen as evil.
And yet once those precious babies are born, conservatives go from "we have to protect those tiny lives" to "can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em". Infanticide by neglect is just as evil.
 

Thaluikhain

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And yet once those precious babies are born, conservatives go from "we have to protect those tiny lives" to "can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em". Infanticide by neglect is just as evil.
To be fair, they do occasionally call for deliveries of thoughts and prayers.
 

tstorm823

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And yet once those precious babies are born, conservatives go from "we have to protect those tiny lives" to "can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em". Infanticide by neglect is just as evil.
Did you know that the Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children (WIC) was a product of Nixon's Presidency, stemming from a conference where he explicitly called for nutritional assistance for woman, infants, and children?