Supreme Court rejects affirmative action at colleges as unconstitutional

tstorm823

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The argument could be made that Republicans have installed a conservative court deeply at odds with the prevailing views of the population. They're rolling things back despite being a demographic minority by rigging the electoral and judicial systems, and are at risk of becoming ever more out of step with their own population as their age-heavy voters die.
The prevailing views of the population are getting more conservative. We've spent decades, the whole baby boomer era, normalizing all sorts of things about sex and drugs, and millions of people are consequently miserable. Younger generations are not going to follow those footsteps.
 

Silvanus

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Yeah, next thing you know they'll say anti-discrimination in employment laws do not apply to people hired by religious organizations to perform religious functions. If you weren't aware, that one has been around since 1972 and just recently has been used to justify that firing a teacher at a religious school for being gay was legal.

1st Amendment beating anti-discrimination laws has a long history.
If you're referring to Lonnie Billard, his case has only so far been heard by the district court, which has given a summary judgement in his favour and against discrimination.

But yes, the long history of weaselling around discrimination laws in the US is not news to me.
 

Silvanus

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The prevailing views of the population are getting more conservative. We've spent decades, the whole baby boomer era, normalizing all sorts of things about sex and drugs, and millions of people are consequently miserable. Younger generations are not going to follow those footsteps.
The younger generation are not miserable as a consequence of liberal attitudes towards drugs and sex. It may have escaped your notice, but the economy is in the shitter, and it has become inordinately difficult to get on the housing ladder. We're stuck in jobs we hate, with ever more stagnating wages and job insecurity, or zero-hour contracts, and it doesn't even give us the chance of owning a house if we live in the city. Meanwhile, the planet is being actively destroyed, and our utilities are poisoning us more than ever before. People are miserable because things are fucking dire.

You may notice that the pervasive low mood persists among those who don't take drugs, and those in steady relationships. No, you may wish to blame it on the social trends your church wishes to repress, but there's not a shred of evidence.

Meanwhile, pretty much every direct attitudinal survey shows a significant shift away from the repressive, pointlessly restrictive social mores of yesterday. Acceptance of non-traditional family structures increases; support for legalisation of drugs increases; support for access to abortions increases; recognition of systemic injustices increases.
 

Hawki

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The argument could be made that Republicans have installed a conservative court deeply at odds with the prevailing views of the population. They're rolling things back despite being a demographic minority by rigging the electoral and judicial systems, and are at risk of becoming ever more out of step with their own population as their age-heavy voters die.
I mostly agree, but in the case of AA, most of the country, regardless of race, supports race-neutral admissions. There, at least, the Supreme Court is reflecting the will of the people.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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One of you believes that treating people identically regardless of race is racism and the other believes that giving some people preferential treatment based on their race is racism, even if the race given preferential treatment isn't white.
And as soon as we have a society that treats people identically regardless of race, you'll have an argument. Right now, we do not.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Well, of course not. One of you believes that treating people identically regardless of race is racism and the other believes that giving some people preferential treatment based on their race is racism, even if the race given preferential treatment isn't white.
The Supreme Court decided, with this opinion, that there is distinct and tangible value in having the leadership, management, and specialists of organizations be ethnically diverse, even if it means putting a thumb on the scale ever so slightly. I agree, for reasons I've stated several times up thread

Where I disagree is that the Supreme Court said that only the military should be allowed that value
 

Ag3ma

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The prevailing views of the population are getting more conservative. We've spent decades, the whole baby boomer era, normalizing all sorts of things about sex and drugs, and millions of people are consequently miserable. Younger generations are not going to follow those footsteps.
I can see an argument that the population are becoming more conservative, if your point is that they accept the social liberalisation of yesteryear but only want modest further changes compared to progressives of earlier decades. But this isn't quite the same as your argument.

The problem is the term "roll back". You are describing the more extreme end of conservatism that is reactionism. There is little to no evidence that younger people as a whole want the social liberalisation their predecessors worked for rolled back, as is extraordinarily clear from their voting patterns, countless polls and other indicators.

This then goes to the Republicans. If the Republicans were a much more moderate conservative party, they'd be okay. But that's not what the Republican party is doing. It's increasingly become beholden to its radical reactionary wing. As the party uses its grasp on power to "roll back", it will likely alienate the party from younger voters even more, and over time those alienated younger voters will become a larger and larger proportion of the electorate.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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How does affirmative action not fall under racism?
The part where it's an attempt to counteract existing systemic racism.

But you don't think that exists and are happy to ban schools from showing examples of it, which is ironically a version of systemic racism, so you're gonna view that statement as racist

Meanwhile I look at measurable examples of black people *living longer* if they have black doctors to go to. Like, you can chart, on a graph, how only having access to certain ethnicities of doctors literally kills people on a statistically significant scale, and obviously, that shouldn't be the case if things like affirmative action were unnecessary
 
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Phoenixmgs

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The part where it's an attempt to counteract existing systemic racism.

But you don't think that exists and are happy to ban schools from showing examples of it, which is ironically a version of systemic racism, so you're gonna view that statement as racist

Meanwhile I look at measurable examples of black people *living longer* if they have black doctors to go to. Like, you can chart, on a graph, how only having access to certain ethnicities of doctors literally kills people on a statistically significant scale, and obviously, that shouldn't be the case if things like affirmative action were unnecessary
Counteracting systemic racism WITH RACISM is racism... How can't you agree that affirmative action is racist? You abide by literally no principles.

How am I for banning schools from showing examples of systemic racism, when have I ever said anything along those lines? There's no law in Florida or any red state that you like to shit on (because you get your news from Twitter) that says something like red-lining can't be taught in school. Just teach history and systemic racism will be taught because it's literally unavoidable.

Those type of studies have so many confounders. It's like saying tests are racist when minorities almost certainly do worse on tests because the learning environment isn't as good, they probably get like no test prep like students in well-off families get, etc. It's not that the test is racist itself. That's why I say you have to handout school money evenly, that's by far the biggest issue in education for kids getting differing quality of education. It's not that white doctors are racist, they probably work in hospitals/clinics that aren't as good as providing care to patients with insurance issues and black doctors more heavily tend to work in places that can better help those individuals.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Counteracting systemic racism WITH RACISM is racism... How can't you agree that affirmative action is racist? You abide by literally no principles.

How am I for banning schools from showing examples of systemic racism, when have I ever said anything along those lines? There's no law in Florida or any red state that you like to shit on (because you get your news from Twitter) that says something like red-lining can't be taught in school. Just teach history and systemic racism will be taught because it's literally unavoidable.

Those type of studies have so many confounders. It's like saying tests are racist when minorities almost certainly do worse on tests because the learning environment isn't as good, they probably get like no test prep like students in well-off families get, etc. It's not that the test is racist itself. That's why I say you have to handout school money evenly, that's by far the biggest issue in education for kids getting differing quality of education. It's not that white doctors are racist, they probably work in hospitals/clinics that aren't as good as providing care to patients with insurance issues and black doctors more heavily tend to work in places that can better help those individuals.
Sure. Your "probably" is the same as actual science. Though it's hilarious that "black doctors are probably just at the poor clinics and that's why black people who go to the white people clinics die more often" if a fucking hilariously blind statement

Like, holy shit, that presumption is so fractally bad that I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it. Do you honestly believe that a poor person going to a clinic that isn't in poor areas is more likely to die? That doctors in poor areas are more likely to be black? And why is that? There's entire branching pathways of ways this makes you look incredibly shitty as a hypothetical explanation to a statistic you don't like and probably didn't know about an hour ago
 
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Trunkage

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I mostly agree, but in the case of AA, most of the country, regardless of race, supports race-neutral admissions. There, at least, the Supreme Court is reflecting the will of the people.
They were sold on the wrong problem. Rich people pretended that minorities were the problem and people bought it hook, line, and sinker. AA covered less than 3% of all entrances to universities. Meanwhile, super-rich people make up a third of the entrance, and legacy entrances make up a quarter, most skipping even having to do any aptitude tests. Harvard has stated they will never get rid of their legacy or rich entrance because they need their money to buy new buildings. Even if all 3% of AA was racist, it is dwarfed by the actual problem

This is the exact same thing that's happening with The Voice referendum at this very moment. Or this nonsense...

Yeah, next thing you know they'll say anti-discrimination in employment laws do not apply to people hired by religious organizations to perform religious functions. If you weren't aware, that one has been around since 1972 and just recently has been used to justify that firing a teacher at a religious school for being gay was legal.

1st Amendment beating anti-discrimination laws has a long history.
Yeah, during our recent referendum, religious institutions in Australia claimed that legalizing same-sex marriage would force religious functionaries to perform same-sex weddings

It's what you call being alarmist

I always find it funny how religious people can ban certain medical treatments on employees' healthcare and pretend that doesn't break the 1st Amendment, but as soon as it can be twisted like your quote here into the religious being attacked so you HAVE to ban everything

And by funny, I mean the religious can stop being hypocrites
 

RhombusHatesYou

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Yeah, during our recent referendum, religious institutions in Australia claimed that legalizing same-sex marriage would force religious functionaries to perform same-sex weddings
That wasn't a referendum, though. It was a non-binding shitshow of a glorified opinion poll.

Also, the anti-same-sex marriage clowns claimed it would lead to someone marrying a bridge which still hasn't happened much to my disappointment.
 

Gordon_4

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That wasn't a referendum, though. It was a non-binding shitshow of a glorified opinion poll.

Also, the anti-same-sex marriage clowns claimed it would lead to someone marrying a bridge which still hasn't happened much to my disappointment.
Hey, at least marrying the Sydney Harbour Bridge implies a deeper appreciation than trying to sell it.
 

tstorm823

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The problem is the term "roll back". You are describing the more extreme end of conservatism that is reactionism. There is little to no evidence that younger people as a whole want the social liberalisation their predecessors worked for rolled back, as is extraordinarily clear from their voting patterns, countless polls and other indicators.
The majority never supported teaching middle schoolers how to give good handjobs, or any number of things the most liberal have done lately. But those things happened anyway because the conservative people lacked political will to stop it. They are now being stopped. It is not the moderate position being rolled back, it's the extremes.
 

Kwak

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The prevailing views of the population are getting more conservative. We've spent decades, the whole baby boomer era, normalizing all sorts of things about sex and drugs, and millions of people are consequently miserable. Younger generations are not going to follow those footsteps.
The sad fantasy of a dying puritan worldview.
 
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