Sweden Considering Sexism Labels For Video Games

[marioandsonic]

I...don't see this working out well.

What exactly would qualify as sexist by these labels? A half-naked woman? A game where you have to rescue a damsel in distress? A woman getting killed by a man?

 

[Magmarock]

Well if you ever needed any proof that Anita is dangerous there it is. Looks like you were wrong about the whole Anita not being Jack Thompson Moviebob. She will succeed where Jack had failed.

What did Anita have to do with this?

And what about this will do anything remotely similar to what Jack Thompson attempted to do?

I shall answer this question but understand two things. I don't want drama or a long argument that goes in circles and you have no chance of changing my prospective or opinion; it's in stone. With that in mind, I was emphasizing how modern feminist ideals can be damaging. If just a thing was main stream people wouldn't be judging games by their cover, but rather by a stamp placed there by someone who has some very strange ideas about what equality means. I wouldn't trust and I am 100% it would cost sales and reduce artistic freedom.

As for Moviebob he made a big picture episode emphasizing that Jack was dangerous where as Anita was not (He was justifying Jacks harassment while defending Anita's) That's only my opinion so take it with salt.

 

[L. Declis]

As a Swede, I like that we're so big on equality, but we're starting to get way too PC. It's getting pretty ridiculous.

I want to point out this is the same country which is running a massive campaign against the evil sexism of... men who pee standing up. They shall force them to sit when they tinkle and then we may join our sisters in feministic glory.

Seriously though, Sweden is like the stupid teenager who goes onto Tumblr and just start taking everything, the genderfluid Pluto-sexual headmating PTSDing Ponykin, and is applying it to EVERYTHING! I mean, Jesus Christ...

 

[lionsprey]

looking at the original Swedish article the damn thing isn't even about sexism! here look

Ett exempel är dataspelsbranschens förering som ska ta fram ett märkningssystem som gör det möjligt för kunder att hitta och premiera normkritiska spel, något som på sikt kan påverka spelutvecklingen.

it basicly means they have recieved funding to make a system that allows customers to find and buy games with "normativ criticism" (only translation of the word i could find) meaning games that examine or critic norms.
this thread is based on a translation error

 

[kasperbbs]

How does this shit even work? Is Witcher II sexist because there were prostitutes in it? Perhaps tekken 6 is sexist because someone wore a short skirt and the last boss is a dude? Meh, as long as the devs aren't forced to alter their work to fit in some sort of check list i don't care and most 10 year olds will still be playing sexist, racist and violent GTA 5 and whatnot.

 

[Baresark]

Oh man, I didn't see this coming because it's kind of a ridiculous idea. Unless of course they have the same or similar system for movies and books (then I would ask why it took so long). It's their money to spend I guess. I'll just forget that what constitutes sexism is at best somewhat subjective. This should be interesting.

 

[SuperSuperSuperGuy]

This sounds well-intentioned, and I respect that, but there are a number of things that can go wrong with this. How can one objectively judge sexism in games?

Well, thank God there's no measure for sexism proposed, rather one on gender bias.

I was merely using an example. I didn't mean to imply that there would necessarily be a bias one way or the other. My issue is with the criteria they would use to rate sexism.

You can't objectively measure sexism in a case like Senran Kagura, whether its sexist toward men or women. Everyone is offended by different things, and there can be arguments for and against the existence of sexism in a given game. To use the same example as in my last post, one can say that Senran Kagura is sexist toward women because it objectifies women, while one can also say that it is not sexist because the female characters are strong, independent, and so on. Likewise, one can say that it's sexist against men because there is a significant unbalance in the number of female and male characters, while one can say that it is not sexist because the men portrayed, while mostly passive in nature, are shown to be as competent and well-developed as the female characters. There are valid arguments for both sides in both cases. My concern isn't because there is going to be some kind of bias or something; it's how they are going to rate a subjective concept in any meaningful capacity.

I don't have a problem with the ESRB. The letter ratings may be meaningless to me, but the reasons given as to why a game has a particular rating, usually on the back of the box, are useful because they give a somewhat objective account of what happens in a game. To use a specific example, if the rating panel says "blood" on it, then the consumer knows that there is blood in the game, so anyone who is sensitive to that sort of thing knows that said game might not be for them. That can't happen with a "sexism" label, because while blood is a defined object, sexism is subjective, and you can't use objective criteria to rate something subjective.

 

[Denamic]

As a Swede, I like that we're so big on equality, but we're starting to get way too PC. It's getting pretty ridiculous.

I want to point out this is the same country which is running a massive campaign against the evil sexism of... men who pee standing up. They shall force them to sit when they tinkle and then we may join our sisters in feministic glory.

Seriously though, Sweden is like the stupid teenager who goes onto Tumblr and just start taking everything, the genderfluid Pluto-sexual headmating PTSDing Ponykin, and is applying it to EVERYTHING! I mean, Jesus Christ...

The peeing standing up thing isn't about sexism though. It's more because standing up while taking a piss causes urine to splatter everywhere. It's why the floors of public bathrooms tend to be sticky. Still, it is encroaching on people's freedom to be gross. Also, calling it a massive campaign is severely overstating it. I only first heard about it here on the escapist, and I've never heard of it anywhere else.

 

[Something Amyss]

then yes I did read it, but that is different in so many ways.

For one, it actually exists, has been adopted, and is a real thing. That may seem redundant, but that's the extent of it being "different." Hell, this doesn't even exist. They are at this point spending less than 40 grand to determine feasibility.

And even if we ignore all that, there's still two forms of artistic media I gave there that weren't addressed.

So what? Unless it retroactively makes film not have something like it, then that makes no difference as to what I said.

I shall answer this question but understand two things. I don't want drama or a long argument that goes in circles and you have no chance of changing my prospective or opinion; it's in stone.

Yeah, most conspiracy theorists feel this way.

With that in mind, I was emphasizing how modern feminist ideals can be damaging.

So demonstrate it.

If just a thing was main stream people wouldn't be judging games by their cover, but rather by a stamp placed there by someone who has some very strange ideas about what equality means. I wouldn't trust and I am 100% it would cost sales and reduce artistic freedom.

Even though the same hasn't happened for ESRB, PEGI, or similar labels....go on....

As for Moviebob he made a big picture episode emphasizing that Jack was dangerous where as Anita was not (He was justifying Jacks harassment while defending Anita's) That's only my opinion so take it with salt.

And you haven't demonstrated that she is dangerous. Or relevant here. Or that this equates to what Jack Thompson wanted, which was actual government censorship of games.

I'm less bothered that your mind is set in stone than I am that you apparently have no foundation for it.

But since you have no persuasive argument and you've already written yourself off as unapproachable, I see no point in continuing conversation with you.

 

[Verlander]

It's unworkable. Ratings systems work because there's a list of criteria that, if a game ticks them off in any way, triggers a rating. Sexism isn't so black and white... a depiction of a stripper isn't inherently sexist, and a female business woman isn't necessarily an empowered depiction of that character. Then there's the sticky situation of satire and suchlike.

If you care about representation in games, fold that into the ratings criteria, don't add another stamp for games devs to ignore.

 

[Something Amyss]

I was merely using an example. I didn't mean to imply that there would necessarily be a bias one way or the other. My issue is with the criteria they would use to rate sexism.

So, was your post completely tangential to the subject at hand, or what? Because, again, this wasn't about sexism.

No the extent of it being different is the paragraph I wrote following that sentence, but you've ignored that.

Because it's untrue. You're offering differences without understanding the original content.

You sure do love to remove context for the sake of sensationalising.

Kinda like that.

It makes your post at the most one third correct and two thirds incorrect.

Or that. My post only addressed film, so it is correct or incorrect based on film.

In reality it was just entirely incorrect.

Or that. In reality, your entire post was untrue. And given that you had a go at me personally, I'm assuming you're just lying.

 

[Rahkshi500]

Well, not entirely sure whether this will even turn out beneifical or not for Sweden. On one hand, it's their country and government, so do whatever they want. On the other hand, it sometimes seems like they have no idea what they're doing or even if they understand the issues themselves, given that one of their schools tried to remove all gender identities and pronouns in order promote "equality" but instead were becoming disrespectful to the whole issue of gender identity entirely. Adding to that, their ratings system of whether a film passes the Bechdel Test or not doesn't seem to be any useful, since the Test seems to be only useful in pointing out the broader trend of films in general, but it can't determine whether each film is feminist by passing the test, because a really sexist film can still pass the test while a film that doesn't pass the test can still feature a lot of other feminist values in it. Plus this new rating system for games just seems to be only to there to tell people what to think or believe about a work of fiction rather than let people decide for themselves. Yeah, it wouldn't exactly stop or prevent someone from buying a product anyway, but the point is that it's still trying tell others what to think rather than let people decide for themselves, because everyone is not going to see something the same way as a few people in power see it.

 

[JadeWah]

Being Swede and following GamerGate, i can say that this is a re-action against it.

In this case, sexism and misgynism in video games have gotten articles here lately, bringing up specifically skewed details about Gamergate, Zoe and Anita as examples of strong women fighting against the patriachy.

It's gotten almost to the point that -anything- you say is considered sexistic/racist etc. Politically correct-ness have taken over the country.

 

[Something Amyss]

If that is the case then point out how, don't just ignore it.

You mean like when I first pointed it out. Which you ignored. Well, your complaints aren't at all hypocritical.

Oh, crap. I bet this is about ethics in journalism, right? That would explain the dishonesty.

 

[SuperSuperSuperGuy]

I was merely using an example. I didn't mean to imply that there would necessarily be a bias one way or the other. My issue is with the criteria they would use to rate sexism.

So, was your post completely tangential to the subject at hand, or what? Because, again, this wasn't about sexism.

My post was meant to show that there can be valid, legitimate arguments for both sides on an issue such as sexism in order to explain my stance on these proposed labels. One cannot attempt to give a definitive, objective rating on such an issue because it is subjective. One cannot give an objective label to any issue of this sort, be it sexism or something else, because not everyone will find it offensive. I chose Senran Kagura as my example because it is related to the issue of sexism, the knee-jerk reaction to seeing the game is that it is sexist because the characters are primarily well-endowed women, and I happen to disagree with the position that it is sexist. Some people find it sexist, and some people don't.

 

[JarinArenos]

As an aside, it amazes me how the Bechdel test is still touted as unassailable scientific criteria when it was merely the set-up joke for a comic strip.

It baffles me too, though for a different reason. It was never supposed to be used as a movie-by-movie rating of quality... the entire joke was that it was a test that set the bar utterly and absurdly low and the movie industry was still refusing to step over it on a regular basis. The fact that it's a test at all is already a sort of damning indictment of modern movies.

Edit: To head off any complaints, yes, I think that movies (should they exist) that fail the "reverse Bechdel test" should also be looked at critically. Either way it suggests you're not putting much effort into your characters.

 

[Dragonlayer]

Goddamn I feel sorry for you see Sweden. A country that once produced vikings is now doing this.

Hopefully the contagion doesn't spread past your borders.

"In accordance with our new educational reforms, we are proud to present the real Herstory of the Vikings: a proud and progressive matriarchal society who travelled to distant lands to introduce equal pay for female serfs, reduce the power of the landed maleocracy and establish Feminist colones to bring the light of equality to Dark Age societies all across Europe."

OT

You can't get two people on this bloody forum to agree what is or isn't sexism, how the hell are some Swedish officials going to achieve it?