Sweden Considering Sexism Labels For Video Games

[Verlander]

It's unworkable. Ratings systems work because there's a list of criteria that, if a game ticks them off in any way, triggers a rating. Sexism isn't so black and white... a depiction of a stripper isn't inherently sexist, and a female business woman isn't necessarily an empowered depiction of that character. Then there's the sticky situation of satire and suchlike.

If you care about representation in games, fold that into the ratings criteria, don't add another stamp for games devs to ignore.

 

[Something Amyss]

I was merely using an example. I didn't mean to imply that there would necessarily be a bias one way or the other. My issue is with the criteria they would use to rate sexism.

So, was your post completely tangential to the subject at hand, or what? Because, again, this wasn't about sexism.

No the extent of it being different is the paragraph I wrote following that sentence, but you've ignored that.

Because it's untrue. You're offering differences without understanding the original content.

You sure do love to remove context for the sake of sensationalising.

Kinda like that.

It makes your post at the most one third correct and two thirds incorrect.

Or that. My post only addressed film, so it is correct or incorrect based on film.

In reality it was just entirely incorrect.

Or that. In reality, your entire post was untrue. And given that you had a go at me personally, I'm assuming you're just lying.

 

[Rahkshi500]

Well, not entirely sure whether this will even turn out beneifical or not for Sweden. On one hand, it's their country and government, so do whatever they want. On the other hand, it sometimes seems like they have no idea what they're doing or even if they understand the issues themselves, given that one of their schools tried to remove all gender identities and pronouns in order promote "equality" but instead were becoming disrespectful to the whole issue of gender identity entirely. Adding to that, their ratings system of whether a film passes the Bechdel Test or not doesn't seem to be any useful, since the Test seems to be only useful in pointing out the broader trend of films in general, but it can't determine whether each film is feminist by passing the test, because a really sexist film can still pass the test while a film that doesn't pass the test can still feature a lot of other feminist values in it. Plus this new rating system for games just seems to be only to there to tell people what to think or believe about a work of fiction rather than let people decide for themselves. Yeah, it wouldn't exactly stop or prevent someone from buying a product anyway, but the point is that it's still trying tell others what to think rather than let people decide for themselves, because everyone is not going to see something the same way as a few people in power see it.

 

[JadeWah]

Being Swede and following GamerGate, i can say that this is a re-action against it.

In this case, sexism and misgynism in video games have gotten articles here lately, bringing up specifically skewed details about Gamergate, Zoe and Anita as examples of strong women fighting against the patriachy.

It's gotten almost to the point that -anything- you say is considered sexistic/racist etc. Politically correct-ness have taken over the country.

 

[Something Amyss]

If that is the case then point out how, don't just ignore it.

You mean like when I first pointed it out. Which you ignored. Well, your complaints aren't at all hypocritical.

Oh, crap. I bet this is about ethics in journalism, right? That would explain the dishonesty.

 

[SuperSuperSuperGuy]

I was merely using an example. I didn't mean to imply that there would necessarily be a bias one way or the other. My issue is with the criteria they would use to rate sexism.

So, was your post completely tangential to the subject at hand, or what? Because, again, this wasn't about sexism.

My post was meant to show that there can be valid, legitimate arguments for both sides on an issue such as sexism in order to explain my stance on these proposed labels. One cannot attempt to give a definitive, objective rating on such an issue because it is subjective. One cannot give an objective label to any issue of this sort, be it sexism or something else, because not everyone will find it offensive. I chose Senran Kagura as my example because it is related to the issue of sexism, the knee-jerk reaction to seeing the game is that it is sexist because the characters are primarily well-endowed women, and I happen to disagree with the position that it is sexist. Some people find it sexist, and some people don't.

 

[JarinArenos]

As an aside, it amazes me how the Bechdel test is still touted as unassailable scientific criteria when it was merely the set-up joke for a comic strip.

It baffles me too, though for a different reason. It was never supposed to be used as a movie-by-movie rating of quality... the entire joke was that it was a test that set the bar utterly and absurdly low and the movie industry was still refusing to step over it on a regular basis. The fact that it's a test at all is already a sort of damning indictment of modern movies.

Edit: To head off any complaints, yes, I think that movies (should they exist) that fail the "reverse Bechdel test" should also be looked at critically. Either way it suggests you're not putting much effort into your characters.

 

[Dragonlayer]

Goddamn I feel sorry for you see Sweden. A country that once produced vikings is now doing this.

Hopefully the contagion doesn't spread past your borders.

"In accordance with our new educational reforms, we are proud to present the real Herstory of the Vikings: a proud and progressive matriarchal society who travelled to distant lands to introduce equal pay for female serfs, reduce the power of the landed maleocracy and establish Feminist colones to bring the light of equality to Dark Age societies all across Europe."

OT

You can't get two people on this bloody forum to agree what is or isn't sexism, how the hell are some Swedish officials going to achieve it?

 

[Benedict Saunders]

Huh i can't help thinking that people aren't actually talking about the actual issue here.

It would be helpful for parents to know what kind of game they are giving to there child or just for personal enjoyment, an 18 rating in England does come with a vague description of what to expect in the game of course, BUT knowing that a game contains racism, depictions of rape or misogyny can't be a bad thing to have on game label surely?

I doesn't appear that they are planning to ban any games, just to stick a label on it so people know. I would be interested in seeing what they come up with in the end.

 

[jabrwock]

Oh my goodness the butthurt.

Next thing you know people will be complaining that they have to label their games for containing adult themes, or foul language.

Oh wait...

It's a label people. Calm down. Nobody's stopping the game from being sold, they just want to provide more info on the contents.

As for the Jack Thompson vs. Anita comparisons... Anita is discussing sexism in games. Jack tried to get certain vague game themes banned from being sold. See the difference?

 

[Something Amyss]

My post was meant to show that there can be valid, legitimate arguments for both sides on an issue such as sexism in order to explain my stance on these proposed labels.

That's nice. Now demonstrate how it applies to media representation, which is a lot harder to square.

Arguing by analogy only works if there's an analogue.

 

[Something Amyss]

I see you're not cutting back on the rudeness or sensationalism.
Stick to what you know I guess.

The thing you did first.

Ironic.

Well, have fun with that, I guess.

 

[DeepReaver]

*slams head on table* oh god why... OK here is the big issue with this. Unlike say Violence or Drug Use which are easy to label, sexism is so fucking subjective to the observer... i just... This is only going to end badly. This is only going to end badly cause it is not going to represent anything about sexism from an equality standpoint, I can almost guarantee that this is going to be skewed as hell based on whoever is judging the game at the time.

 

[Darth_Skroob]

What hath Charles XII, by the Grace of God King of Sweden, the Goths and the Vends, Grand Prince of Finland, Duke of Scania, Estonia, Livonia and Karelia, Lord of Ingria, Duke of Bremen, Verden and Pomerania, Prince of Rügen and Lord of Wismar, and also Count Palatine by the Rhine, Duke of Bavaria, Count of Zweibrücken?Kleeburg, as well as Duke of Jülich, Cleve and Berg, Count of Veldenz, Spanheim and Ravensberg and Lord of Ravenstein, wrought? His military adventuring and imperial overreach has led to Sweden having possibly the most neutered men on earth. Swedes need to recapture some of that Viking spirit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zgkySBTUIw

 

[SuperSuperSuperGuy]

My post was meant to show that there can be valid, legitimate arguments for both sides on an issue such as sexism in order to explain my stance on these proposed labels.

That's nice. Now demonstrate how it applies to media representation, which is a lot harder to square.

Arguing by analogy only works if there's an analogue.

My example applies to the idea of "labelling products for levels of sexism", as stated in the first line of the article. The article states that:

Dataspelsbranchen, a Swedish games industry organization, has been given a 272,000 kronor (roughly $36,672) grant by the state-funded "Innovation Agency" Vinnova to study and create a system that would provide ratings for games released in Sweden indicating the level of sexism and/or whether or not the game promotes gender equality.

This sounds like a really well-intentioned idea, and I would totally be behind it, if the system does not fail under certain circumstances. As I said, "levels of sexism" is completely subjective; you cannot apply such a label to a game in any objective, meaningful capacity by giving a label with a rating or judgement that says "sexist" or "not sexist", or anything on the spectrum in-between.

As for media representation, I'm all for it. As I said, the people behind this idea mean well. If we attempt to account for "good" or "bad" media representation, however, then we run into the same issue. Hopefully, that won't be the case.

 

[Lunar Templar]

yay! another thing that's not gonna do a god damned thing and smacks heavily of 'band wagon hopping.'

 

[DrOswald]

Not exactly a bad idea in theory. I like the idea of a rating system that gets more granular than our current set (violence and sexual content, sure, but what kind of violence and sexual content?), but I really doubt that something so subjective as gender representation can reliably be measured.

Also, I don't believe that Swedish movies and TV are giving ratings to individual movies based on the Bechdel test. They can't really be that moronic. I am not believing that one until I get a more credible source than Movie Bob.

 

[Rattja]

What I want to know is how all this sexism relates to realistic graphics in games. It' may be because I was young then, but I don't really recall anyone calling a pixel beating the shit out of another pixel sexist, even it it was sexy woman sprite.

Im starting to think that there is a different angle to all this. Why should it matter what form a bunch of 1's and 0's take on a screen?
It's not people you see there, but it seems many seem to think they are at this point.
And it is not so strange when you get to play games which try to mimic reality to such an extent as they do. It just gets easier to mix them up.

It's like, nobody ran around and jumped on people or ate random muchroms after playing Mario, but they are supposedly robbing cars and beating women because of GTA.

Just saying that this focus on realistic looking and feeling games might be a bigger part of the problem than we think.

 

[Callate]

Huh.

I don't necessarily think that's a bad idea, but I'd much sooner see it brought up as a "stamp of approval" thing than part of an actual rating. It's also a little uncomfortable to have a government agency telling you something is sexist; is there an appeal system?

I'll point out here that I also thought up-rating things for tobacco use was kind of on the silly side. (Still do, honestly.)

 

[Skeleon]

Considering media has marks for stuff like...
Crude humour.
Drugs.
Alcohol.
Violence.
Partial nudity.
Nudity.
Mature themes.
...and whatever else, I can hardly see this as anything ground-shaking. Just like you might not want your kid to play Gut-Blood-Drencher XTREME Gore Edition or whatever, parents might want to avoid other themes including gender issues as well. This will, of course, be perceived by many as another vicious attack on games or whatever, but I'm of the opinion that more information for consumers is better than less. To take a completely different example, it's also why I'm absolutely in favour of marking GMO food as such despite not having any personal qualms with it.