Sweden Considering Sexism Labels For Video Games

SuperSuperSuperGuy

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This sounds well-intentioned, and I respect that, but there are a number of things that can go wrong with this. How can one objectively judge sexism in games?

To use an example, take a series like Senran Kagura. The games are about a group of shinobi girls, and most of these girls have large breasts. As you may guess, it's very fanservice-oriented. However, is it sexist? Now, I'm open to rational discussion on the matter, but I, personally, don't think it is. The reason for this is that the characters are not defined by their bodies; they have individual personalities beyond being sexy. The characters are strong, being elite shinobi and all, and are independent. There are men involved, as well, though they mostly take passive roles, and the one playable man is treated in the exact same way as all of the women are. It passes the (woefully shallow) Bechdel test[footnote]Funnily enough, if there was a reverse-Bechdel test that tested for men instead of women, it would fail the second condition; there are multiple named male characters, and they never talk about girls in a romantic or sexual way, but they never really interact with each other, unless Murasame interacts with either Hanzo or Kiriya in Senran Kagura 2 and I don't know about it.[/footnote], and the women are strong, independent, and well-developed as characters, and they don't wear revealing clothing (barring a bit of cleavage here and there) unless it fits their character. However, they are designed to be attractive, and there is a hefty level of fanservice, although the playable man is subject to this as well. Senran Kagura is an ambiguous case; both ways of looking at the game are valid, so how could a ratings board rate this game series objectively?
 

TravelerSF

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Abomination said:
As long as Finland remains sane...
Dude, last month our regional state administrative agency forbid two people from using the word "whiskey" on their private blogs, since it could be counted as advertising strong liquor. And this week our food safety administrator tried to ban people from selling one of our local food with their original name ("lörtsy", which is essentially meat or jam baked inside a solid crust) because a customer couldn't find about the ingredients of it just by the name alone. We aint sane anymore.
 

loa

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Uhh no, sorry.
You can't measure "sexism", we can't even come to a consensus whether bayonetta is sexist or empowering and it'll be even greater arbitrary nonsense than age ratings.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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Honestly I don't care. Has an ESRB label ever stopped you from buying a game? Or encouraged you for that matter?
 

Evil Smurf

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Nov 11, 2011
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Good.

I can't wait to see river of tears from the entitled brats that often coincide with my hobbies. That is to say, this is going to do a part in addressing the issue that pop culture has with women.

Can I borrow a flame shield, please?
 

Something Amyss

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And on a day that no fucks should have been given....

erttheking said:
Didn't take very long for people to jump on the "what about men" train did it.
I'm surprised it took as many posts as it did.

After all, this looks like a job for [https://medium.com/@Lubchansky/not-all-men-fede8cab28d7]....



Neverhoodian said:
As an aside, it amazes me how the Bechdel test is still touted as unassailable scientific criteria when it was merely the set-up joke for a comic strip.
Who's saying it's unassailable scientific criteria?

Also, its origins are kind of irrelevant. The point that a movie that was already more than five years old at the time the strip was made might have been the last to qualify brings up a valid issue. The only thing that could possibly be at issue with this is that it's not a test for sexism, and that requires complainers to not read the original article.

Which I'm pretty sure they haven't, since it only took a few posts for people to start arguing about that point.

But people aren't going to take time reading an article when there's offense to be taken.
 

FancyNick

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So... Whats the point of this really? Will this be put on boxes? I just don't see the point in throwing 40,000 dollars at this. Anyone who is interested in the topic can do their research like anyone else. It's not like the internet is for want with this discussion.
 

Izanagi009_v1legacy

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Apr 25, 2013
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Karadalis said:
erttheking said:
Didn't take very long for people to jump on the "what about men" train did it.

As a man, I wish the issues my gender faces would be more than something brought up with the sole purpose of shutting people up.
Didnt took long for you to show up and make passive agressive remarks about people who dont share your opinion now did it? ;)

See i can do this stuff too!

Fact is they are overdoing it. The Bechdel test? Really? You could make the most sexist garbage movie and it could still pass the bechdel test... thats how bad that thing is.

OT:

Video games can be so much more? Sure they "can" but they dont "have to".

Take the movie industry for example:

Look praise all your artsy movies all day long but if you look at the sales numbers you will see that Lord of the rings and Michael bays usual summer blockbuster simply sell millions upon millions too.

Meanwhile the art movie branch is nothing but an echo chamber where so called artists can pat each other on the shoulder while having no real idea what makes a good movie good.

Kinda like most so called wine experts that cant really differentiate between a super market bought 5 dollar wine and a bottle thats apparently worth several thousand dollars as long as you hide the labels from them. Same thing goes for these artsy movies and in turn to artsy "games".

Really the only good game i have seen in that category was journey.. because it understood that at the base of everything a game is still a GAME. It needs to be played or else it stops being a game and becomes pretentious BS.

Anyways this "sexism" label... people said that SJWs have no real power... well good for them that they don't live in Sweden then eh? They try to be so progressive they are going backwards. Wonder when the first white CIS male witch-hunts will begin. If you're not at least bi- or metrosexual its your balls on a silver platter nowadays it seems.
Yes, gaming can be much more than what they currently are. Yes the current market doesn't necessitate it.

However, I find that for the growth of both the audience and the industry, we need to promote better games. i've stated in a few threads that genuinely sexist games are rare and that the "sexism" we claim to see are the unfortunate consequences of lazy character design and poor writing. Speaking up against the idiotic "sexism" we see will result in game developers making better stories and characters in the long run. In addition, power fantasies need their counterbalance; for every war movie that glorifies violence and nationalism, one should try to consider the negative consequences if they wish to be more rounded.

As for the movie comments, I find that to be disagreeable. I find that the "art" movies have also been under fire from critics before (see the blowup around "the Brown Bunny"). In addition, what makes a movie sell a lot are not the same as what makes a movie good. Most summer blockbusters aim for adrenaline rushes and grand scope; a good movie aims for story and characters to be written well or for it to be thematic. They are not mutually exclusive but saying that all art films are made by people who don't know about good movies while claiming that blockbusters are selling is a bit of a flawed argument.

OT: I'm of two minds about this

On the one hand, I appreciate the effort to inform people of the unfortunate consequences of bad writing and characters so that they are more aware

As a net whole, however, this is a detriment since it is far too subjective and will result in more arguments and conflict.
 

josh4president

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So we're institutionalizing and standardizing what can only be subjective opinion (since nobody appears able to bloody well agree what is 'sexist' and what isn't) and then broadly applying it to an art form.

I cannot even begin to fathom how this could possibly end well.
 

Something Amyss

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SuperSuperSuperGuy said:
This sounds well-intentioned, and I respect that, but there are a number of things that can go wrong with this. How can one objectively judge sexism in games?
loa said:
Uhh no, sorry.
You can't measure "sexism", we can't even come to a consensus whether bayonetta is sexist or empowering and it'll be even greater arbitrary nonsense than age ratings.
Well, thank God there's no measure for sexism proposed, rather one on gender bias.

Johnisback said:
I wonder if they're going to apply this same system to films, books and music.
You mean like the setup they already have that's mentioned for film in the article itself?

I really do get the impression that nobody reads the articles.
 

Something Amyss

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josh4president said:
So we're institutionalizing and standardizing what can only be subjective opinion (since nobody appears able to bloody well agree what is 'sexist' and what isn't) and then broadly applying it to an art form.

I cannot even begin to fathom how this could possibly end well.
Well, they did it with film and the world didn't end....What ending are you foreseeing that's different here?
 

Ekit

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Our SJW politicians wasting tax money on some new asinine feminist project. Same shit, different day.
 

Magmarock

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Well if you ever needed any proof that Anita is dangerous there it is. Looks like you were wrong about the whole Anita not being Jack Thompson Moviebob. She will succeed where Jack had failed.
 

Something Amyss

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Magmarock said:
Well if you ever needed any proof that Anita is dangerous there it is. Looks like you were wrong about the whole Anita not being Jack Thompson Moviebob. She will succeed where Jack had failed.
What did Anita have to do with this?

And what about this will do anything remotely similar to what Jack Thompson attempted to do?
 

Elberik

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Apr 26, 2011
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This could become video games' Oprah Book Club Sticker. But it will never, nor should ever, be made part of the ESRB.
 

Abomination

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TravelerSF said:
Abomination said:
As long as Finland remains sane...
Dude, last month our regional state administrative agency forbid two people from using the word "whiskey" on their private blogs, since it could be counted as advertising strong liquor. And this week our food safety administrator tried to ban people from selling one of our local food with their original name ("lörtsy", which is essentially meat or jam baked inside a solid crust) because a customer couldn't find about the ingredients of it just by the name alone. We aint sane anymore.
I guess the solution to the intelligence disparity is to make everything idiot-proof... but then someone will go and build a better idiot.