Sweden Considering Sexism Labels For Video Games

[Something Amyss]

And on a day that no fucks should have been given....

Didn't take very long for people to jump on the "what about men" train did it.

I'm surprised it took as many posts as it did.

After all, this looks like a job for [https://medium.com/@Lubchansky/not-all-men-fede8cab28d7]....

Spoiler

As an aside, it amazes me how the Bechdel test is still touted as unassailable scientific criteria when it was merely the set-up joke for a comic strip.

Who's saying it's unassailable scientific criteria?

Also, its origins are kind of irrelevant. The point that a movie that was already more than five years old at the time the strip was made might have been the last to qualify brings up a valid issue. The only thing that could possibly be at issue with this is that it's not a test for sexism, and that requires complainers to not read the original article.

Which I'm pretty sure they haven't, since it only took a few posts for people to start arguing about that point.

But people aren't going to take time reading an article when there's offense to be taken.

 

[FancyNick]

So... Whats the point of this really? Will this be put on boxes? I just don't see the point in throwing 40,000 dollars at this. Anyone who is interested in the topic can do their research like anyone else. It's not like the internet is for want with this discussion.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Didn't take very long for people to jump on the "what about men" train did it.

As a man, I wish the issues my gender faces would be more than something brought up with the sole purpose of shutting people up.

Didnt took long for you to show up and make passive agressive remarks about people who dont share your opinion now did it?

See i can do this stuff too!

Fact is they are overdoing it. The Bechdel test? Really? You could make the most sexist garbage movie and it could still pass the bechdel test... thats how bad that thing is.

OT:

Video games can be so much more? Sure they "can" but they dont "have to".

Take the movie industry for example:

Look praise all your artsy movies all day long but if you look at the sales numbers you will see that Lord of the rings and Michael bays usual summer blockbuster simply sell millions upon millions too.

Meanwhile the art movie branch is nothing but an echo chamber where so called artists can pat each other on the shoulder while having no real idea what makes a good movie good.

Kinda like most so called wine experts that cant really differentiate between a super market bought 5 dollar wine and a bottle thats apparently worth several thousand dollars as long as you hide the labels from them. Same thing goes for these artsy movies and in turn to artsy "games".

Really the only good game i have seen in that category was journey.. because it understood that at the base of everything a game is still a GAME. It needs to be played or else it stops being a game and becomes pretentious BS.

Anyways this "sexism" label... people said that SJWs have no real power... well good for them that they don't live in Sweden then eh? They try to be so progressive they are going backwards. Wonder when the first white CIS male witch-hunts will begin. If you're not at least bi- or metrosexual its your balls on a silver platter nowadays it seems.

Yes, gaming can be much more than what they currently are. Yes the current market doesn't necessitate it.

However, I find that for the growth of both the audience and the industry, we need to promote better games. i've stated in a few threads that genuinely sexist games are rare and that the "sexism" we claim to see are the unfortunate consequences of lazy character design and poor writing. Speaking up against the idiotic "sexism" we see will result in game developers making better stories and characters in the long run. In addition, power fantasies need their counterbalance; for every war movie that glorifies violence and nationalism, one should try to consider the negative consequences if they wish to be more rounded.

As for the movie comments, I find that to be disagreeable. I find that the "art" movies have also been under fire from critics before (see the blowup around "the Brown Bunny"). In addition, what makes a movie sell a lot are not the same as what makes a movie good. Most summer blockbusters aim for adrenaline rushes and grand scope; a good movie aims for story and characters to be written well or for it to be thematic. They are not mutually exclusive but saying that all art films are made by people who don't know about good movies while claiming that blockbusters are selling is a bit of a flawed argument.

OT: I'm of two minds about this

On the one hand, I appreciate the effort to inform people of the unfortunate consequences of bad writing and characters so that they are more aware

As a net whole, however, this is a detriment since it is far too subjective and will result in more arguments and conflict.

 

[josh4president]

So we're institutionalizing and standardizing what can only be subjective opinion (since nobody appears able to bloody well agree what is 'sexist' and what isn't) and then broadly applying it to an art form.

I cannot even begin to fathom how this could possibly end well.

 

[Something Amyss]

This sounds well-intentioned, and I respect that, but there are a number of things that can go wrong with this. How can one objectively judge sexism in games?

Uhh no, sorry.
You can't measure "sexism", we can't even come to a consensus whether bayonetta is sexist or empowering and it'll be even greater arbitrary nonsense than age ratings.

Well, thank God there's no measure for sexism proposed, rather one on gender bias.

I wonder if they're going to apply this same system to films, books and music.

You mean like the setup they already have that's mentioned for film in the article itself?

I really do get the impression that nobody reads the articles.

 

[Something Amyss]

So we're institutionalizing and standardizing what can only be subjective opinion (since nobody appears able to bloody well agree what is 'sexist' and what isn't) and then broadly applying it to an art form.

I cannot even begin to fathom how this could possibly end well.

Well, they did it with film and the world didn't end....What ending are you foreseeing that's different here?

 

[Ekit]

Our SJW politicians wasting tax money on some new asinine feminist project. Same shit, different day.

 

[Magmarock]

Well if you ever needed any proof that Anita is dangerous there it is. Looks like you were wrong about the whole Anita not being Jack Thompson Moviebob. She will succeed where Jack had failed.

 

[Something Amyss]

Well if you ever needed any proof that Anita is dangerous there it is. Looks like you were wrong about the whole Anita not being Jack Thompson Moviebob. She will succeed where Jack had failed.

What did Anita have to do with this?

And what about this will do anything remotely similar to what Jack Thompson attempted to do?

 

[Elberik]

This could become video games' Oprah Book Club Sticker. But it will never, nor should ever, be made part of the ESRB.

 

[Abomination]

As long as Finland remains sane...

Dude, last month our regional state administrative agency forbid two people from using the word "whiskey" on their private blogs, since it could be counted as advertising strong liquor. And this week our food safety administrator tried to ban people from selling one of our local food with their original name ("lörtsy", which is essentially meat or jam baked inside a solid crust) because a customer couldn't find about the ingredients of it just by the name alone. We aint sane anymore.

I guess the solution to the intelligence disparity is to make everything idiot-proof... but then someone will go and build a better idiot.

 

[marioandsonic]

I...don't see this working out well.

What exactly would qualify as sexist by these labels? A half-naked woman? A game where you have to rescue a damsel in distress? A woman getting killed by a man?

 

[Magmarock]

Well if you ever needed any proof that Anita is dangerous there it is. Looks like you were wrong about the whole Anita not being Jack Thompson Moviebob. She will succeed where Jack had failed.

What did Anita have to do with this?

And what about this will do anything remotely similar to what Jack Thompson attempted to do?

I shall answer this question but understand two things. I don't want drama or a long argument that goes in circles and you have no chance of changing my prospective or opinion; it's in stone. With that in mind, I was emphasizing how modern feminist ideals can be damaging. If just a thing was main stream people wouldn't be judging games by their cover, but rather by a stamp placed there by someone who has some very strange ideas about what equality means. I wouldn't trust and I am 100% it would cost sales and reduce artistic freedom.

As for Moviebob he made a big picture episode emphasizing that Jack was dangerous where as Anita was not (He was justifying Jacks harassment while defending Anita's) That's only my opinion so take it with salt.

 

[L. Declis]

As a Swede, I like that we're so big on equality, but we're starting to get way too PC. It's getting pretty ridiculous.

I want to point out this is the same country which is running a massive campaign against the evil sexism of... men who pee standing up. They shall force them to sit when they tinkle and then we may join our sisters in feministic glory.

Seriously though, Sweden is like the stupid teenager who goes onto Tumblr and just start taking everything, the genderfluid Pluto-sexual headmating PTSDing Ponykin, and is applying it to EVERYTHING! I mean, Jesus Christ...

 

[lionsprey]

looking at the original Swedish article the damn thing isn't even about sexism! here look

Ett exempel är dataspelsbranschens förering som ska ta fram ett märkningssystem som gör det möjligt för kunder att hitta och premiera normkritiska spel, något som på sikt kan påverka spelutvecklingen.

it basicly means they have recieved funding to make a system that allows customers to find and buy games with "normativ criticism" (only translation of the word i could find) meaning games that examine or critic norms.
this thread is based on a translation error

 

[kasperbbs]

How does this shit even work? Is Witcher II sexist because there were prostitutes in it? Perhaps tekken 6 is sexist because someone wore a short skirt and the last boss is a dude? Meh, as long as the devs aren't forced to alter their work to fit in some sort of check list i don't care and most 10 year olds will still be playing sexist, racist and violent GTA 5 and whatnot.

 

[Baresark]

Oh man, I didn't see this coming because it's kind of a ridiculous idea. Unless of course they have the same or similar system for movies and books (then I would ask why it took so long). It's their money to spend I guess. I'll just forget that what constitutes sexism is at best somewhat subjective. This should be interesting.

 

[SuperSuperSuperGuy]

This sounds well-intentioned, and I respect that, but there are a number of things that can go wrong with this. How can one objectively judge sexism in games?

Well, thank God there's no measure for sexism proposed, rather one on gender bias.

I was merely using an example. I didn't mean to imply that there would necessarily be a bias one way or the other. My issue is with the criteria they would use to rate sexism.

You can't objectively measure sexism in a case like Senran Kagura, whether its sexist toward men or women. Everyone is offended by different things, and there can be arguments for and against the existence of sexism in a given game. To use the same example as in my last post, one can say that Senran Kagura is sexist toward women because it objectifies women, while one can also say that it is not sexist because the female characters are strong, independent, and so on. Likewise, one can say that it's sexist against men because there is a significant unbalance in the number of female and male characters, while one can say that it is not sexist because the men portrayed, while mostly passive in nature, are shown to be as competent and well-developed as the female characters. There are valid arguments for both sides in both cases. My concern isn't because there is going to be some kind of bias or something; it's how they are going to rate a subjective concept in any meaningful capacity.

I don't have a problem with the ESRB. The letter ratings may be meaningless to me, but the reasons given as to why a game has a particular rating, usually on the back of the box, are useful because they give a somewhat objective account of what happens in a game. To use a specific example, if the rating panel says "blood" on it, then the consumer knows that there is blood in the game, so anyone who is sensitive to that sort of thing knows that said game might not be for them. That can't happen with a "sexism" label, because while blood is a defined object, sexism is subjective, and you can't use objective criteria to rate something subjective.

 

[Denamic]

As a Swede, I like that we're so big on equality, but we're starting to get way too PC. It's getting pretty ridiculous.

I want to point out this is the same country which is running a massive campaign against the evil sexism of... men who pee standing up. They shall force them to sit when they tinkle and then we may join our sisters in feministic glory.

Seriously though, Sweden is like the stupid teenager who goes onto Tumblr and just start taking everything, the genderfluid Pluto-sexual headmating PTSDing Ponykin, and is applying it to EVERYTHING! I mean, Jesus Christ...

The peeing standing up thing isn't about sexism though. It's more because standing up while taking a piss causes urine to splatter everywhere. It's why the floors of public bathrooms tend to be sticky. Still, it is encroaching on people's freedom to be gross. Also, calling it a massive campaign is severely overstating it. I only first heard about it here on the escapist, and I've never heard of it anywhere else.

 

[Something Amyss]

then yes I did read it, but that is different in so many ways.

For one, it actually exists, has been adopted, and is a real thing. That may seem redundant, but that's the extent of it being "different." Hell, this doesn't even exist. They are at this point spending less than 40 grand to determine feasibility.

And even if we ignore all that, there's still two forms of artistic media I gave there that weren't addressed.

So what? Unless it retroactively makes film not have something like it, then that makes no difference as to what I said.

I shall answer this question but understand two things. I don't want drama or a long argument that goes in circles and you have no chance of changing my prospective or opinion; it's in stone.

Yeah, most conspiracy theorists feel this way.

With that in mind, I was emphasizing how modern feminist ideals can be damaging.

So demonstrate it.

If just a thing was main stream people wouldn't be judging games by their cover, but rather by a stamp placed there by someone who has some very strange ideas about what equality means. I wouldn't trust and I am 100% it would cost sales and reduce artistic freedom.

Even though the same hasn't happened for ESRB, PEGI, or similar labels....go on....

As for Moviebob he made a big picture episode emphasizing that Jack was dangerous where as Anita was not (He was justifying Jacks harassment while defending Anita's) That's only my opinion so take it with salt.

And you haven't demonstrated that she is dangerous. Or relevant here. Or that this equates to what Jack Thompson wanted, which was actual government censorship of games.

I'm less bothered that your mind is set in stone than I am that you apparently have no foundation for it.

But since you have no persuasive argument and you've already written yourself off as unapproachable, I see no point in continuing conversation with you.