Sweden Moves Towards Gender Neutrality [Support Thread]

[chadachada123]

It's cool that the Swedish language has such a small difference between their two gender pronouns that a healthy neutral one could happen. Hen seems pretty well between han and hon.

English doesn't really have such easy splits, and any new neutral word will, at least for awhile, be quite clunky. I'm vehemently opposed to "they" being used because of possible ambiguity in plurality, and "it" would be opposed by most people (but would be my choice if I had absolute say).

As for what we should do in the English language (socially, at least, since I don't think anything should be done on the legal front to control language)...On the one hand, like the words actor/actress and waiter/waitress, I don't see an issue with one term being neutral and the feminine term being specific. Or vice-versa. I see no issue with language assuming gender so long as it is the norm to do so.

On the reverse side, my writing professor suggested that, in our essays, we alternate genders when using hypothetical examples, because saying "he or she" or "him and her" would get very old very fast. She wasn't opposed to using a single gender throughout, but felt that it flowed better. She, like me, discourages using "they" as a singular. In common language, this is a bit more difficult to do, but I think it works well enough as long as no one gets overly defensive about their assumed gender being wrong when there was no way for the other person to know ahead of time.

 

[Sunrider]

Ha, no refer away! Why would that be a cop-out? Silly internet peoples!

The crossing sign thing was AWFUL, I agree. They could have done a much better job of it. For one thing the original sign was a cute little pun, for another they could have just made her look more like the lady on the public toilets, put some up here and there all quiet like and most people wouldn't have give a shit. But they needed to politicise everything, not to mention the dreadful design they finally chose for her.

Spoiler: Look at the male design, then the female, then facepalm

The new design is better, but still it's too late; shitstorm flew through and filled everything with shit and rage.

Things would be so much better if politicians stopped latching onto good (or awful) ideas others might have just to try to bolster their own ratings. ARGH. Hate politics.

And yes, my colleague was an asshole. He talked shit about everybody behind their backs.

My brother grew up surrounded by sisters and also wore dresses as a kid when playing dress-up, but he's never been interested in boys; well, apart from that time he was at sea for 6-8 months in the navy without shore-leave when his all-male crewmates started to look damn fine-- but we don't talk about that.

Here is where I wish sarcasm had its own font!
Now get your ass on steam every now and then, will ya? I know you hate my guts, but it's been ages since we talked!

 

[lacktheknack]

As far as I'm concerned, the goodness of the re-introduction of the word depends on how it's used.

If the Swedish language has no parallel to "what did they (singular) say?", then the re-introduction of the word can be helpful.

If "han" and "hon" fall out of use and everyone becomes "hen", that doesn't seem useful, and possibly somewhat insulting.

At any rate, I don't think English has any need of a similar word. We already have "they" as a gender-neutral pronoun, and it covers most situations adequately. The only time it wouldn't work would be if you're talking to someone who's gender you can't figure out, but that would mean that any new introduced word would translate to "sir or ma'am", and would be equally insulting. So... you're kind of screwed on that one regardless of gender-neutral pronouns.

 

[nepheleim]

Since I know how these types of threads go and I don't want to see it locked because people can't tolerate divergent opinions, I have one thing to politely request of everyone:

[HEADING=3]If you vehemently disagree with gender deconstructivism and its goals, please hit the back button or close the tab. You are completely free to start your own thread on the matter to bemoan these terrible news.[/HEADING]

[HEADING=2]This thread is intended as a positive take on the matter. It is not intended to condemn or derogate these practices, but to show our support. This is a positive thread. If you oppose these practices, please create your own thread for that. Thank you.[/HEADING]

So.... if anyone has a divergent opinion they have to go elsewhere because you say other people can't tolerate divergent opinions? Intolerance of intolerance or some such thing?

To be clear, I don't give a solitary damn what people want to call themselves or each other, I just thought that was an odd request. Also, threads are supposed to support discussion, and it's not much of one if only people who agree with each other are allowed in. That's how things like Fox News happen.

 

[Larcenist]

Ok I just had a thought..

is there a specific word for female chicken in swedish? Or is it just the normal "hen" because that word would still be feminine while trying to be neutral..

The Swedish translation of hen would be "höna" if that's what you're meaning.

The thing is that I have just come to the conclusion that people in general hate you regardless of how you call them in Sweden. Han/hon/hen, no matter which one you pick someone will nag at you. I've had people file complaints at work when I spoke to them calling them "ni" (insert mandatory Monty Python joke here) which is the Swedish equivalent of a formal "you".

 

[Froggy Slayer]

Swedish didn't have an analogue for the word 'they' before? How silly.

 

[BlazeRaider]

I think that's a useful word, often times in english you need to refer to someone whose gender you either do not know or has not been established yet, then you have to use that clunky "him or her" or "he or she" phrase.

"Then all 'he or she' has to do is press the big red button"

I hate saying that phrase, it disrupts my sentence flow for the sake of political correctness T_T

 

[James Crook]

Good! Now we'll get more books with gender-ambiguous characters for Sweden!
No, seriously, this is good news. Always great to add neutrality to language, for equity's sake namely.

 

[Mangod]

Off topic: The swedish name for "The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo" is "Män som hatar kvinnor" (trans: Men who hate women). If we were then to apply this gender neutral term it would become "Hen som hatar hen"... which just sounds silly.

On topic: I've never understood the need for this term. Most people identify themselves partially by gender. If it's about transgendered people feeling discriminated, then wouldn't it just be easier to refer to them by teir own preference (i.e. men who identify as female will be refered to as female). I really cannot see the need for a completely gender neutral term, unless your name is Metatron.

 

[Product Placement]

Wait... Swedish didn't have a standard gender neutral pronoun until just now? That's so fucking weird. Icelandic has had one since... well... always, as far I can tell and these two languages share a common ancestry.

-Five minutes of googling later-

...Oh, I see. Apparently Old Norse used the word "sá" as a definite article. Originally all encompassing, like the English definite article "the", it was eventually broken down in Icelandic into "sá/sú/það" (masculine/feminine/neutral). The Icelandic pronouns eventually received a similar treatment, giving us "hann/hún/það".

Sorry. I'm a language nerd.

 

[Slyaap]

Gender neutral words and toys!? Wha-... why?

When did it happen that being called 'he' or 'she' is suddenly not done?

Looks like worldpeace can only be achieved by forcing everyone to be the same. No distinction, no flavor, just a saltless grey society.

I love this about internet forums. If you read a thread long enough someone will say exactly what you are thinking. And this is one of my worst fears, a world where everyone is too afraid not to be P.C.

I have to admit, while I'm not against this idea I don't understand the point. Is it for ease of use, that everyone is the same? Or is it so no-one is offended? I'm 34 and I don't feel like I get the world anymore sometimes.

 

[Darken12]

I will address specific questions and points of interest at a latter date, just getting the urgent stuff out of the way ASAP.

In other words, no dissenting opinions allowed. How interesting.

Dissenting opinions are fine, provided they do not devolve into flame wars that end up with the topic locked. Saying "I don't really agree with this" is fine, inflammatory posts are not.

So.... if anyone has a divergent opinion they have to go elsewhere because you say other people can't tolerate divergent opinions? Intolerance of intolerance or some such thing?

Divergent opinions are fine, provided they are stated politely and do not devolve into flame wars that force moderator lockdown. If you are unsatisfied with that arrangement, you are more than free to create a thread of your own, and append the [Flame Thread] tag at the end.

To be clear, I don't give a solitary damn what people want to call themselves or each other, I just thought that was an odd request. Also, threads are supposed to support discussion, and it's not much of one if only people who agree with each other are allowed in. That's how things like Fox News happen.

Discussion is allowed, within the parameters I described above. If you are unsatisfied by the parameters, feel free to create a thread that is more to your liking.

Thing is my mother is a preschool teacher and she claims that this has taken the form of half-arsed, unclear lecture just like when it was decided that the education (including preschool) was going to be more entrepreneurial.

It's definitely possible that the execution leaves much to be desired, and can be summarily improved, I agree.

 

[Larcenist]

Swedish didn't have an analogue for the word 'they' before? How silly.

Sure we have. Subjective third-person plural personal pronoun: "De". We also have the usage of "man" which could in a way substitute for the English usage of "one" (something many posters have written the Swedish language does not provide).

One does not have to...
Man behöver inte...

While not a direct translation the substance will be the pretty much the same.

That being said, Swedish is a silly language.

 

[Product Placement]

Off topic: The swedish name for "The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo" is "Män som hatar kvinnor" (trans: Men who hate women). If we were then to apply this gender neutral term it would become "Hen som hatar hen"... which just sounds silly.

What? No. That's not how it works. Basically, what the Swedes did was introduce a word that can work as a gender neutral alternative for "him/her", which in English is "it". The Swedish title of that story is "Men who hate women", just like you said; not "He who hate her", which in Swedish would be "Han som shater hon".

Your argument is essentially that since there's now a gender neutral pronoun, the Swedes would now replace all their nouns with this new pronoun. Isn't that essentially a Smurf language?

 

[bananafishtoday]

It's not going to abolish all gender distinctions and transform everyone into gray unisex blob people.

Jesus, this really is the generation of the spineless and the oversensitive

"We rather not want to have equality with the freedom of our individualism, let's just dump everyone into a grey social blob where no differene is allowed. PRAISE SOCIAL JUSTICE"

I'm... actually kind of amazed by this. Literally 20 mins after my mock-hyperbolic comment, someone posts almost the same thing in total seriousness.

On topic: I've never understood the need for this term. Most people identify themselves partially by gender. If it's about transgendered people feeling discriminated, then wouldn't it just be easier to refer to them by teir own preference (i.e. men who identify as female will be refered to as female). I really cannot see the need for a completely gender neutral term, unless your name is Metatron.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer

Not everyone thinks of themself as a man or a woman. Also, "themself" in the previous sentence is an example of how a gender-neutral pronoun is useful for everyday speech/writing.

 

[ImmortalDrifter]

That's not what Fascist means. Authoritarian might be a better word. But again, that's not part of the proposal.

I looked into the term just now and apparently it's still up in the air what fascism really means. I referred to it as that because under my impression fascist meant government imposed and enforced moral values. It may or may not be right. Regardless, I wasn't referring directly to the proposal, but the stigma that appears to surround it. Honestly though, if this was a lapse purely involving the language, you'd think someone would have brought this up sooner.

I'd like you to prove that. I used gender role to refer to the stereotypes surrounding genders which are a part of society that impact on personal gender identity. So the words appear in close proximity, because the way a person identifies and expresses their gender is related to the roles that society expects of their sex. My point was that to call it sexist is flat out wrong.

The gender-deconstruction position didn't say anything about the sexes needing to be eliminated, or focussing on sex, but rather on the social construct of gender. Hence, you've conflated the two, in an attempt to label the opposition as sexist, which is hardly a classy move. If you can detail how people trying to eliminate the idea of gender are discriminating on the basis of sexual biology, I'll consider it. You play a similar rhetorical game when I address this and attempt to call me out for conflation. Even if you had a point, and I don't think you do, as it stands, you'd still have to address the fallacy in your argument. Tu Quoue.

You ask me to prove my definition of a debateable sociological term? You ask far too much. The aforementioned article the stepped into femanazi territory may have biased my perception too much though. My reasoning comes from the gender deconstruction argument coming from a perceived (but debately present) form of discrimination (against women, but that is again in that specific article). Calling it sexist was wrong on my part, it involved a lack of understanding of the concept. My view of the gender deconstruction platform remains the same, though. I don't see this gender constraint that seems to be a problem. It occurs to me that anyone can do anything they want. I honestly don't think gender roles still exist, regardless of the movement. As I said before gender roles as they seem to be described (Women wear dresses, as exampled in this very thread) is lost on me because I grew up with parents who didn't conform to them. I don't see the platform as sexist now, I just see it as vehemently unneccesary. Also it's spelled Tu Quoque, but that's unrelated.

If there's already a non-gender specific singular, it's redundant, and someone more familiar with Swedish would be the best to assess that.

And yes, the mire around it is a bit ridiculous. But that's not to do with the word or the policy.

Actually it appears to have a lot to do with the policy. At least if these comments are to be believed. To restate my first point, if this was a problem purely with the language someone would have brought in up long before now right? Of course that arguement dips into assumptions, but I feel they're vindicated when it comes to proving the connection between this and the "Politically correct" movement.

Also, I apologize if any of my arguements are repeats. I'm on zero hours of sleep and I'm now going to bed.

For my last note (today at least) the CoC does not dismiss anyones opinion or exclude people with a certain view point. The intro to this page did not ask them to stay on topic, it asked them to only participate if they held the same viewpoint as the OP. If you tell people they shouldn't do something, and there is not a single consequence for doing said thing then you can bet people are going to do it. Especially when it involves surpressing opinions. If the OP's original request was heeded, this thread would probably be dead by now. But everyone loves to ***** at each other. You and I, we're perfect; Quod erat demonstrandum. You never avoid flame wars by participating hahaha.
Goodnight

 

[BlazeRaider]

If all he wanted was a bunch of people congratulating him and Sweden for their support of this specific idea, then allow me to add this video which will remove the need for this thread. Enjoy.

http://youtu.be/oyFQVZ2h0V8

I love the comments thread on that video xD

Maybe the Escapist team could arbitrarily turn every post in this thread into "Congratulations!"?

That'd be worth a good laugh.

The comments section is like pristine white snow.

 

[zumbledum]

seems a bit silly to me, gender equality is fine im all down with that , but gender neutrality? not for me sorry. it doesnt matter how much people want to forget or ignore the fact but the genders are not the same there are a lot of clearly demonstrated and documented differences in not only the physical but mental characteristics between the genders.

Equal means equal not the same.

sorry if this opinion bothers the op but this is a forum after all

 

[Woodsey]

But what's new in Sweden is not analogous to they. Hen was originally intended to behave like singular they, when gender was unknown. But a children's-book author has recently adopted the radical feminist position of using it to replace han and hon entirely. This would be a little bit like saying

Steve left their jacket here. They're going to really be cold outside without it

Mary is getting bored in their marriage and is considering leaving their husband

You fight stereotyping and prejudices and racism and sexism by teaching people that it's fine to be different because everyone is fucking different, not by pretending we're an amorphous blob.

 

[Jamash]

It's been around for a while, but isn't really used since it sounds really silly. It sounds like calling someone a hen. The English word. I think han/hon works just fine.

Now that you mention it, in English the term "hen" is a slang word for woman and not gender neutral at all. It's particularly used as a term of endearment in the Scottish dialect:


Not that the informal usage of the word in English should matter too much since English and Swedish are two completely different languages and the two uses of "hen" are in complete different contexts, but even if you ignore the informal slang use of "hen" in English, it's proper meaning it still synonymous with a female animal and not gender neutral in it's most widely accepted meaning, even if it is in another language.

It's a bit like if for English, alongside he/him/his and she/her/hers they decided to use ho/hos as a gender neutral term. Despite the term being declared gender neutral, most people will automatically associate ho and hos with a feminine (albeit disparaging) term.