Sweden Moves Towards Gender Neutrality [Support Thread]

[kaizen2468]

Can't we just use marklar?

 

[redmoretrout]

Well changing the correct grammar of an entire language just so people don't feel oppressed by pronouns seems ridiculous to me.

 

[Jayemsal]

Gender deconstruction is a terrible idea, both the genders are equal in worth but they have very big differences and roles. Hypothetically if you let a little boy identify as a girl, have fantasies of being a mother and carrying a baby in a womb that can lead to some issues in later life. There are physical differences, if you claim that race and gender are social constructions you have to go up against years of confirmed genetic science.

Its a step in the right direction. Breaking down how genders are constructed is the easiest way of creating equality. In a way it is similar to the Marxist view on race (Race being a construction, not a reality). This fits in with my own view on race relations and the end of racism.

Equal societies are what this world should strive for. Things like this give me a little bit more hope for humanity in general. I fucking love Sweden, I think I should just give up, learn Swedish and move. I am sick of the morally bankrupt little rock I live on.

"Race is a construction, not a reality" Please elaborate? The Marxist view of race, gender and class is a flawed idea because it says that everyone is a victim of a broken system and everyone is both oppressed and oppressor. It's a theory composed of a victim complex ideology that insists in poking holes in a system. It's cool to look at things differently with a different mind set but fucking with things practically like the raising of children (putting them in a gender neutral environment) without prior controlled experiments is highly unethical.

Race is a myth.
There are no significant biological differences between anyone of any "race."
All variations can be attributed to biological mutation, and offer no significant reason to qualify as a category.

 

[Busard]

"We rather not want to have equality with the freedom of our individualism, let's just dump everyone into a grey social blob where no differene is allowed. PRAISE SOCIAL JUSTICE"

I'm... actually kind of amazed by this. Literally 20 mins after my mock-hyperbolic comment, someone posts almost the same thing in total seriousness.
[/quote]

Well sorry to find this kind of thing is not only mildly insulting and silly but also promotes this kind of "we must not offend at all cost" attitude that's been ramping up. It's part of this constant hammering of trying to replace people, language and system with a bunch of happy soft dolls that can't offend and can't perpetrate any kind of scaaaaaaaaary social faux pas.

It might not be a big deal to you, or even progressive, but for me I find this really regressive and tedious. Instead of going toward a goal of just accepting that there are different things that can be considered as such, we try to dumb them down to the simplest denominator.
Especially when it comes from a really really small minority (yeah, sorry, deal with it) that takes issue over something that is not even meant as an insult in the first place, just a pronoun/harmless denominator. Like you said, "he" and "she" is also simply a word.

Equality by suppression doesn't work, and will never will in my book.

 

[Vareoth]

This is a somewhat pointless gesture. Rather then trying to live with a diverse group of people in harmony you try to generalize them into a single entity so people don't have to be offended by basic linguistic pronouns. It almost seems childish. There are much more important steps to take.

Also, saying to you won't allow differing opinions is neither feasible nor allowed on a public forum.

 

[redmoretrout]

Race is a myth.
There are no significant biological differences between anyone of any "race."
All variations can be attributed to biological mutation, and offer no significant reason to qualify as a category.

That is the single most ridiculous thing I have ever heard, of course there are genetic differences and trends between races of people. For example African Americans are more likely to contract sugar diabetes or lupus than Caucasians, proving a genetic difference between the two races. I'm against discrimination and all, but pretending races don't exist will not cure racism.

 

[Aramis Night]

I have no issue with the "hen" word being used to describe an ambiguous individual whose gender is unknown, but in place of the appropriate gender pronoun of a person whose gender is known, it's offensive. Are people this ashamed of their genders now? If this is the case then i can't think of a more tacit implication that feminism has failed it's goal.

I really wish that people would let go of this whole idea that "gender is a social construct". It's like a religion with some people. This has been disproven with the most basic of scientific observations regarding our biology. It's like they are trying to create more David Reimer's( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer ).

What always gets me about these discussions about gender is we concentrate too much on the genital's of the people in question and not on all the other characteristics that are a result of gender. Both sexes have vastly different brain characteristics for example, and these tend to affect us far more than our genital's in terms of how we behave.

I suspect i understand why feminists are loath to see the discussion get that honest as i'm sure they fear that such information would possibly be used to justify treating them differently. Seeing as we already do treat them differently, i don't believe this is a justified concern. Truth in the end may in fact benefit their side. Some differences are good, some are bad. Some are just differences.

So instead of trying to understand our differences and why, we get these little campaigns and ideas from them to distract us from ever really joining the debate in earnest as long as they can convince us that they are looking into it and doing something about it so that we don't have to. I'm less than satisfied if this is the result. I especially don't appreciate the way they attempt to stifle discussion from other parties on the matter as well, as the OP attempted.

 

[Xan Krieger]

Just seems like another case of political correctness gone mad. So instead of he or she you call them chicken.
That joke aside I'm serious, there are men and women and we are different. Different in ways that have an effect daily. You can't remove that from life entirely like it seems they're trying to do.

 

[Yuno Gasai]

However, I would like to point out that demolishing gender is completely pointless. It will always exist and there is no reason for it to be done away with. There should absolutely be equal rights and opportunities for all sexes, but I personally find the thought of saying there is something wrong with being "boyish" or "girly" and forcefully trying to destroy it is absurd. You can have an amalgamation of both and people who find certain behaviors attractive can come together.

I really don't understand why behavioral divides bother people so much.

I couldn't agree with this more if I tried.

The issue isn't with the fact that some things are inherently branded as "boyish" or "girly", it's that some parents are trying to pigeonhole their children into being a certain way, or liking a certain thing. Having toys/clothing which are openly boyish or girly is completely fine, as long as you give the child the option to play with the opposite of what you've given them (or let them choose themselves, depending on their age).

I don't understand what demolishing gender is supposed to actually achieve, other than adding extra honorifics.

 

[DarthSka]

Seems like this is taking what we've had before, but just applying it to the opposite end of the spectrum, from forcing gender norms to forcing gender neutrality. That toy car bit really bugged me. If one wants to be gender neutral, then fine, let them. But if one wants to be or deal with something that is considered stereotypical to their gender, that's bad? It's basically forcing a lifestyle on someone that they may not want it. The solution is not to get rid of gender, but to get the point where we realize that we're all equal no matter what gender is involved.

 

[Muspelheim]

Hey, if you too think this is all very well-intended, but cripplingly, annoyingly silly, then imagine having to live with this...
I do like the general idea, in a way. Far too many social topics eventually devolve into a question of "is it a penis or a vagina involved?", and trying to make that less of an important factor is a good thing in itself. But as have been pointed out, you don't overcome aversion to differences by pretending they don't exist. You overcome them by coming to terms with them.

Heh, beyond DIY-furnture and meatballs, now we've got well-intended but flawed ideas to export. Wonder if there's a market for that?

Still, it's a useful word when you're not sure. Like a simplification of the He/She-thing.

Sure we have. Subjective third-person plural personal pronoun: "De". We also have the usage of "man" which could in a way substitute for the English usage of "one" (something many posters have written the Swedish language does not provide).

One does not have to...
Man behöver inte...

While not a direct translation the substance will be the pretty much the same.

That being said, Swedish is a silly language.

That's true, but it can be great fun sometimes. Throw a few random words and terms in a concrete mixer and see what pours out, like.

 

[Fnuff]

"Hurr durr oh no don't take my gender away" said the bumbling idiots while steadily clutching their private parts.

As if there was some leftwing-feminazi conspiracy out to neutralize everything they hold dear and identify with, oh my.


Seriously though, the word is only meant to be used for situations when a gender-specific pronoun isn't necessary or if you don't know the gender of the person in question. It's not a word that was just made-up either, it's been around since the '60s.

OT:

Feminism isn't about forcing people to ignore the biological differences between the sexes, it's about the fact that everyone is equal despite these differences. It's also about not forcing people into a stereotypical gender role just because they were born with a certain set of genitals.


Please disregard my subpar use of the english language. :3

 

[josemlopes]

Gods, are people in this thread actually supporting the concept of gender roles?

I don't support "gender roles". I do support genders though

Oh no, I wasn't referring to you. But when it seems like a significant number of people in the thread actually believe that separate can be equal, I get worried.

Well here's the funny thing. They can be. "Gender Deconstruction" is inherantly sexist. You view genders as inequal so you intend to destroy them. If you viewed genders as equal then the pronoun wouldn't matter because they would already be equal right? I believe in individuality (regardless of the ensuing paradox) and gender is a part of what defines who we are. Does that mean that either gender is locked into "roles" or whatever? Of course not. I grew up looking to my mom as the breadwinner. She went to college, got a job, ripped stereotypes in half like fucking phonebooks, and she still prefers to be called a she. She didn't need to hide behide neutral gender rhetoric to be awesome, she did it while being a goddamn woman. That is my opinion, feel free to disagree. But I have too much respect for women (and men, fuck the police) to disenfranchise them with defensive labels they don't need.

Good Day to you sir

Fuck yeah. Dont people already know that anyone can grow up to be anything these days? You dont have to be called something else to get a permission to do it, just do it.

And by the way, what are we supposed to call a transgender? Like male to female for example? We call "she", right? Like, thats what a transgender is, isnt it? A person that switched gender? So then we call it the gender that the person currently assumes instead of using a genderless term.

 

[DarthSka]

I'm a Swede, and even though I'd usually respect the OP's request to keep this thread positive by simply moving along, I refuse to since this 'hen' business is completely stupid.

First of all, men and women are different. That's just a fact. We think differently, act differently, and that's not bad. We should celebrate the fact that we are different instead of trying to force everyone into being the same grey sludge with no identity.

Secondly, these gender-neutral words are already a complete and utter failure since they aren't neutral. 'Hen' is the feminine term, 'hum' is the masculine term. If there are feminine and masculine terms of a gender-neutral word then how the fuck can it be neutral?

Let boys be boys and girls be girls. And if the boys want to play with GI Joe's and the girls want to play with My Little Pony's they should be able to do that without some whackjob telling them that it's wrong because they aren't acting gender-neutral.

So which identity is superior and should be in control? They can't be different and the same.

No they can't, but they can be different and equal, which is the point of gender equality. It's not something that will happen quickly, but will happen eventually. This however is simply giving up on that and trying to promote homogeneity when the fact is everyone is and always will be different.

 

[generals3]

So which distinction is the superior?

So who should serve and who should rule? Who are the users and who are the used?

If you want to go with the old ways, you might as well answer that question. You're going to have to.

And this is why we can't have nice things.

Why does one have to be superior to the other? Take cars for instance, a compact car is superior to a 4x4 jeep gas consumption wise but is inferior when driving on snow or other dodgy surfaces. So at the end there is no real superior one they're just different.

Those who should rule are those are the most fit to rule, and in this case it doesn't even have to be a gender. Like most societies where feminists haven't gone bonzo have proven you can have male and female leadership coexisting without destroying gender roles because not every male and female is the same despite trends.

 

[distortedreality]

Eh.

Stuff like this is great in theory, but it can have terribly unexpected consequences if implemented poorly. Equality seems to be a more appropriate goal to me as opposed to enforced androgyny. This sort of stuff can start a slippery slide if society isn't careful.

But, i'll reserve judgement until I see the effects and have a closer look at what's actually happening. It'll probably be a while before we see anything meaningful come out of this either way I suspect.

edit -

I'm wondering if the OP's request that everyone express the same opinion in this thread has something to do with the subject matter.....

I guess i'll have to open a thread to discuss that.

 

[Atrocious Joystick]

"Hurr durr oh no don't take my gender away" said the bumbling idiots while steadily clutching their private parts.

As if there was some leftwing-feminazi conspiracy out to neutralize everything they hold dear and identify with, oh my.


Seriously though, the word is only meant to be used for situations when a gender-specific pronoun isn't necessary or if you don't know the gender of the person in question. It's not a word that was just made-up either, it's been around since the '60s.

OT:

Feminism isn't about forcing people to ignore the biological differences between the sexes, it's about the fact that everyone is equal despite these differences. It's also about not forcing people into a stereotypical gender role just because they were born with a certain set of genitals.


Please disregard my subpar use of the english language. :3

Referring to people who disagree with you as being retarded is kind of insulting and sort of exactly what many criticizes feminists for seeing as it is nowadays part of the so called "establishment". I agree that it is stupid to think in terms of a leftwing feminazi conspiracy as you called it. But at the same time you people really need to cut down on the black and white thinking and the instant "dehumanization" of people who disagree with your flights of fancy. It does you no favors and alienates many people who fundamentally agree with you.

 

[generals3]

But when gas consumption is a more valuable trait than being able to drive on snow, one is superior to the other. And since the compact has the superior trait, it too is superior.

The story of gender right there in one sentence. Male values are, and always will be, more rewarded and viewed as more valuable.

If that's the story of gender rights than women obviously have never been oppressed. Why? Because what is most valuable depends on the situation. In certain situations certain traits are preferred than others. You won't convince some dude living in the middle of nowhere who has to take dirt roads to get anywhere that a compact car is superior. And that's the whole point, certain typically feminine traits will be preferred in certain instances. And let's also not forget the whole purpose of equality of rights and opportunity is to judge people on their actual traits and not genitalia which suggests they may have certain traits. To take the car analogy, you may have compact cars which drink gas like mad trucks while having jeeps that have a reasonable consumption. Choosing a compact car which has a consumption of 10L/100km over a jeep which has one of 9L/100km because you assume compact cars use less gas would be stupid. Just like it would be stupid not to hire a female scientist who is better than a male one because you assume males are better at science. And it is the latter which has to be fought.

 

[RedDeadFred]

I find it funny how many people in this thread are treating the word "hen" as if it has female connotations. In the English language, yes, it's a female chicken so obviously it's a female word. However, in the Swedish language, it's obviously a brand new neutral word. I don't see why anyone should have a problem with the word itself unless they actually speak the language and know more about it's root than I do.

As far as the stuff surrounding this (taking away toys), sorry to go against your wishes OP but that is simply ridiculous. Why are they depriving children of happiness in an attempt to make them all the same? They are taking away kid's self expression and that is just plain wrong.

Seriously though, what did you want to see? A thread full of "good job them" and "I agree with this." Seems kind of boring if everyone has the same opinion because there's no point in responding if every person is saying roughly the same thing.

 

[Mangod]

Off topic: The swedish name for "The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo" is "Män som hatar kvinnor" (trans: Men who hate women). If we were then to apply this gender neutral term it would become "Hen som hatar hen"... which just sounds silly.

What? No. That's not how it works. Basically, what the Swedes did was introduce a word that can work as a gender neutral alternative for "him/her", which in English is "it". The Swedish title of that story is "Men who hate women", just like you said; not "He who hate her", which in Swedish would be "Han som shater hon".

Your argument is essentially that since there's now a gender neutral pronoun, the Swedes would now replace all their nouns with this new pronoun. Isn't that essentially a Smurf language?

One: Are you a swede? Because I am.

Two: The swedish word for men is "män", and the word for women is "kvinnor". But the new gender neutral word hen does not have a plural form (yet), ergo, if the story "Män som hatar kvinnor" had been named wih the aforementioned term hen, it would indeed have become "Hen som hatar hen". Or "hennor".

Third: the above is a reference to a swedish comedy sketch show, Partaj (Party), which made fun of the overly PC nature of the term by having a sketch wherein a librarian was rewriting all the books in a library to remove any references to gender.

Fourth: No, a Smurf language would involve us randomly replacing random words with the word Smurf (or whatever we would end up using). See the Family Guy smurf sketch for examples: