SWTOR is so repetitive

el grandos tabetos

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Every quest in this game involves go to X to activate Y consoles while button mashing mobs, or steal X items from enemies by button mashing mobs, or just button mash XX amount of mobs. The voiced conversations with NPCs feel like pointless filler since every quest is doing the same thing.
Are all MMORPGs like this? I heard this game is a clone of WoW, in that case what's so appealing about WoW?
 

Skorm034

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All MMORPG's are like this. Some people find it appealing because well... There are also some people who like midget on giraffe porn, some people just have different tastes.
 

FabTails

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SWTOR is actually more bearable than most MMOs in terms of single player questing goes.
 

Zaydin

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FabTails said:
SWTOR is actually more bearable than most MMOs in terms of single player questing goes.
The biggest complaint I tend to see about SWTOR though is that there's no real end-game to keep players playing. A great leveling experience, but nothing to hold your attention once you finish. Well, that and it really doesn't F2P well. I can attest to that second part, at least; I played F2P for a bit and felt like too much of a second class citizen to keep playing. At least with Star Trek Online, I didn't feel like I was being overtly punished for playing Free to Play.
 

FabTails

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Zaydin said:
The biggest complaint I tend to see about SWTOR though is that there's no real end-game to keep players playing. Well, that and it really doesn't F2P well. I can attest to that second part, at least; I played F2P for a bit and felt like too much of a second class citizen to keep playing. At least with Star Trek Online, I didn't feel like I was being overtly punished for playing Free to Play.
Yeah end game SWTOR is a little strange. It feels kind of empty. Well, at least it did back when I played it. It's probably better now.

In regards to the free to play thing, I get what you're saying but it is just a different type of free to play. The free to play in SWTOR is designed to give you a taste of the game, but piss you off enough that you feel you need to subscribe in order to really experience it.
 

Zaydin

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FabTails said:
Yeah end game SWTOR is a little strange. It feels kind of empty. Well, at least it did back when I played it. It's probably better now.

In regards to the free to play thing, I get what you're saying but it is just a different type of free to play. The free to play in SWTOR is designed to give you a taste of the game, but piss you off enough that you feel you need to subscribe in order to really experience it.
Merh, I already pay 15 bucks a month for World of Warcraft, so the F2P experience for SWTOR didn't really motivate me to shell out extra money.

Main reason I tried SWTOR was to at least have an informed opinion of it. What I played was fairly fun; I will admit that SWTOR has a better leveling experience in terms of story than WoW, but the penalties I faced as a F2P player undermined that. If I don't feel valued by a company while playing F2P, I don't feel any pressing desire to pay them money just to get better treatment.

Star Trek Online at least didn't make me feel overly penalized for being F2P. After WoW, STO was the most time I had invested into an MMO (though my time played in STO still comes no where near the time I've sunk into WoW over the years)
 

Zaydin

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[quote="el grandos tabetos" post="9.832526.20341685"Still it's like developers never sat back and asked themselves "Is this fun?"[/quote]You have to remember, what is and isn't 'fun' is subjective. Some people enjoy PvP in MMOs, others hate it. Some people love questing, others hate it. Not everyone finds the same things 'fun' in video games.
 

Terminal Blue

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For the most part, yes. MMOs have a lot of grind. They kind of need to. An MMO with an 8 hour playtime is an MMO very few people are going to be playing at any given time.

I guess the thing to appreciate is that while grind in and of itself is not generally "fun", it's actually a big part of what makes MMOs compelling (and I mean that in the sense of "addictive"). If every action in the game was instantly rewarding, it would not have the same psychological effect as needing to stab 500 boars and then suddenly *ding*.

By making you tolerate long periods of relatively mundane action in order to get your reward, the reward itself becomes far more elusive and thus more significant. The game is essentially teaching you to want things, which is kind of sinister and probably responsible for the vast number of broken lives left behind by games like WoW.
 

AuronFtw

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el grandos tabetos said:
I heard this game is a clone of WoW, in that case what's so appealing about WoW?
Um... the raiding content. The nearly flawless, incredibly difficult group bosses that require a full 25 people with deep knowledge of their class and its abilities to be able to conquer. The cooperative group content unmatched in any other genre and any other game to date. The days/weeks of wiping to a really difficult monster as various members of your group struggle with specific mechanics, and to finally beat it, as a group, and rejoice as a group, with everyone shouting and cheering in vent as loot nobody even cares about gets passed out.

That's "what's so appealing" about WoW. You spend enough time raiding with the same guild, you start feeling like an extended family. You learn people's names, their hobbies, their habits, sometimes even interact with family members or significant others (who often have characters in the guild!). And with all that chemistry, 25 people throw themselves at difficult content to overcome it as a group. There's really no other feeling quite like it in any video game. Imagine the warm fuzzy feeling you get when you save the world in Dragon Age or whatever, except multiplied by 25; the funny idle chatter that goes on in vent, the camaraderie as guildies help each other learn fights, mechanics and sometimes even new classes. It's something completely missing from single player games, and something that smaller-group multiplayer games only get in small amounts.

Other games "have" raiding content, it's just bad. EQ2's combat is sluggish and the classes are poorly designed. Rift's raids are very one-dimensional, and while the classes were revamped significantly several times, the initial playerbase buggered out fairly early when the classes were bad. TOR's raids were piss easy on launch, and once everyone had cleared them, nobody had an interest in them. Easy raids = bosses dying with almost no effort = no real time spent learning a fight or working as a group, just going in, clubbing seals and collecting loot. Boring.

But no, nobody plays MMOs for the leveling content. It is awful across the board. No game to date has made "kill 10 wolves" enjoyable. That said, this is another thing WoW has over TOR: pretty much all of tor's quests, on any planet or zone, are some variation on kill 10 wolves. WoW has, over the years, included a variety of other quests to break up the monotony. Firing cannons at a hundred bloodthirsty werewolves? Check. Flying proto-drakes to rescue wounded soldiers from the battlefield? Check. Literally acting as a questgiver and handing out kill 10 wolves quests to several NPCs with hilarious dialog? Check. Punching a dragon in the face? Check. Flying a motorcycle (yes, a motorcycle) and picking up a hot male elf mistaken as a chick? Check. They're small, but the enjoyment factor skyrockets when you get these kind of side missions in a zone. That's not to say WoW doesn't have kill 10 wolves, because it certainly does, but it feels a LOT less grindy when it's broken up by enjoyable quest chains. The more enjoyable quest chains, more memorable zones, vastly better dungeon content, and nearly flawless raids are what sets WoW leagues ahead, and are (some of the) reasons why it's been the biggest MMO for almost a decade.

PvP is bad in every MMO, but that goes without saying. The PvE is easier for players to jump into and easier for devs to produce, so rarely do they "focus" on PvP content, they just add it in as an afterthought. Pretty much the only exception to this was Guild Wars 1, which was a PvP-focused MMO for years until the developers figured it'd make bigger bank catering to a PvE audience, so they shat out Guild Wars 2, a very shallow yet graphically pretty PvE MMO with token awful PvP elements.

Sigh.
 

AuronFtw

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Oh, actually meant to add this but forgot:

Because MMOs have really dry, boring leveling content, people often try to skip it any way possible. WoW has a feature called "recruit-a-friend" which gives two accounts triple exp up to level 80, as long as they're playing together (in the same dungeon, near each other while questing, etc). Triple exp + fast dungeon queues of a tank or healer class makes your level absolutely skyrocket, and because you level up so quickly from dungeons, you rarely have to do any of them more than once. All it takes is maybe an hour of questing to get to 15 (minimum dungeon level), then off you go. A pair of brand new players can hit 80 in easily under a month, and if you're paired up with an experienced player, you can be 80 in 2 weeks with no sweat. And that's with very little grindy kill 10 wolves content.

The last time I played TOR (...months ago, can't remember how many) it didn't have any kind of recruit-a-friend feature, but one might have come out since then. If you're really dying to see the endgame content, that might be an option to look into. If you've got no other option than doing the kill 10 wolves quests, you're going to hate the game before you hit max level, and end up quitting early... which is fine, since TOR is pretty bad anyway. But if you're looking to get past it, do anything you can to level up - dungeon content, PvP missions, whatever.

Remember, you're sinking both time and money into a single video game. Make sure you're having fun with it. If you aren't, it's probably a good idea to look around at other options. If, for whatever reason, you really want to play an MMO, WoW is definitely your best bet. I played it for years, and never felt my $12/month was going to waste. But I had friends to play with and lots of great raiding to keep me occupied - if your schedule is incompatible with raiding guilds on your server, and you've got nobody to group with for dungeons, the game will be very stale for you, even at max level. But if you're just trying to dabble in the waters and see what this whole MMO thing is all about, it's definitely a good idea to stick with the biggest and most polished one instead of one of the cheap knock-offs. If you decide you don't like what WoW offers, chances are pretty damn good you won't enjoy any other MMO either. But if you don't like what TOR offers, there's always a chance it's just because TOR did it poorly. Either way, good luck in your future MMO endeavors :p
 

Hawkeye21

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You should try Guild Wars 2. It has a lot of stuff for you to do at any given moment. You could be catapulting cows one minute, doing jumping puzzles the next, then pop up to play a round or two of pvp, then join world versus world server and run around capturing castles and raiding caravans, then come back to the map you were going to explore for your main quest, discover that world event has started, then you can get turn into a newt and go underwater killing jellyfishes and shit... This game is just mindbogglingly diverse for an MMORPG. I hated WoW, hated TOR (although i love star wars), never got into Rift, but this game just tickles me in all the right places. I am never bored when I play it.
 

Eclectic Dreck

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el grandos tabetos said:
FabTails said:
SWTOR is actually more bearable than most MMOs in terms of single player questing goes.
Still it's like developers never sat back and asked themselves "Is this fun?"
It's because "fun" is not nor has it ever been part of the design consideration of an MMO. They're skinner boxes plain and simple.
 

The Madman

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Tried playing it again recently. Oh god, I'd forgotten how bad it was. People in this topic keep saying the leveling isn't too bad, but for a game that tries to pride itself on being story-centric the dialogue and writing is just soooooo bad. Painfully bad. I'm convinced half the dialogue was written by interns, it's that bad. I can't even conceive of a world in which someone wrote down this crap, read it over, and said "Yep, that's good!". Hell it's been a couple years since I played, but I remember even WOW having better writing than this.

Admittedly there are much, much worse games out there as well but I just don't understand the thinking when people say SWTOR should have been singleplayer. No, it shouldn't have, because it's terrible at it. It should have been cancelled and a proper rpg game made in its place. SWTOR isn't the worst game I've ever played, not even close, but it's definitely not good either especially in terms of story and dialogue.

Mind you I have heard some classes are better than others, but that's two classes I've tried now and both were wretched. I find it hard to believe the others are much better.
 

Amarsir

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All MMOs are repetitive because they are trying to enable hundreds or thousands of hours of playtime. They just can't make unique stuff quickly and cheaply enough to satisfy that way. Certainly not on a free-to-play model, and really not even with $15 per month subscriptions. (And EA are hardly innovators anyway.) If non-repetitive content is what you want, you're better off buying the tier 1 box release stuff and moving on.

The main thing MMOs have going for them is the multiplayer coordination. Get some people in different roles and things start playing around a little differently: the techniques and certainly the personalities change from group to group. If you enjoy the people you're playing with, or you enjoy seeing how different abilities combine from different sources in different situations, it becomes a lot less repetitive. This is why a lot of people immediately loved Guild Wars 2 [https://www.guildwars2.com/en/] when it came out, because it was so easy to join up in group activities. (Though I understand a lot were disillusioned with the endgame.)

An alternative way, and this is what has spoiled me lately, is to find a game that uses the MMO shell but offers more action-based play. That way you get leveling and unlocks, and the chance for massive multiplayer coordination, but don't really mind repeating. (For example, fighting and FPS games endure a great deal of repetition before they get old.) The game I went to after SWTOR disappointed me, which I stayed with for a year, was DC Universe Online [https://recruit.soe.com/recruit/smlanding.action?iId=74IDQUJIRNSLLVMUU8MC&gamecode=DCUO]. As a free-to-play MMO, it's also quite repetitive. But the combat is very action-based, and especially after I got into PvP I found that it was fun to play things repeatedly just because executing the different combos can be so much fun.

(I've drifted away from that now and am currently playing Planetside 2 [https://recruit.soe.com/recruit/smlanding.action?iId=74IDQUJIRNSLLVMUU8MC&gamecode=DCUO] based on very similar reasoning. Only this action is Shooter-based rather than fighting-based.)

So that's what MMOs are. You can enjoy them because of the accomplishment you get from unlocking stuff, or the social aspect, or the action in-and-of itself. But don't expect tons of original content from them. It's not the model's strength.
 

EvilMaggot

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i play it for the lore. And i like.. no... I FUCKING LOVE KOTOR.. and to be able just to play a bit more in that Era of Star Wars ^^
 

Charli

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AuronFtw said:
el grandos tabetos said:
I heard this game is a clone of WoW, in that case what's so appealing about WoW?
Um... the raiding content. The nearly flawless, incredibly difficult group bosses that require a full 25 people with deep knowledge of their class and its abilities to be able to conquer. The cooperative group content unmatched in any other genre and any other game to date. The days/weeks of wiping to a really difficult monster as various members of your group struggle with specific mechanics, and to finally beat it, as a group, and rejoice as a group, with everyone shouting and cheering in vent as loot nobody even cares about gets passed out.

That's "what's so appealing" about WoW. You spend enough time raiding with the same guild, you start feeling like an extended family. You learn people's names, their hobbies, their habits, sometimes even interact with family members or significant others (who often have characters in the guild!). And with all that chemistry, 25 people throw themselves at difficult content to overcome it as a group. There's really no other feeling quite like it in any video game. Imagine the warm fuzzy feeling you get when you save the world in Dragon Age or whatever, except multiplied by 25; the funny idle chatter that goes on in vent, the camaraderie as guildies help each other learn fights, mechanics and sometimes even new classes. It's something completely missing from single player games, and something that smaller-group multiplayer games only get in small amounts.

Other games "have" raiding content, it's just bad. EQ2's combat is sluggish and the classes are poorly designed. Rift's raids are very one-dimensional, and while the classes were revamped significantly several times, the initial playerbase buggered out fairly early when the classes were bad. TOR's raids were piss easy on launch, and once everyone had cleared them, nobody had an interest in them. Easy raids = bosses dying with almost no effort = no real time spent learning a fight or working as a group, just going in, clubbing seals and collecting loot. Boring.

But no, nobody plays MMOs for the leveling content. It is awful across the board. No game to date has made "kill 10 wolves" enjoyable. That said, this is another thing WoW has over TOR: pretty much all of tor's quests, on any planet or zone, are some variation on kill 10 wolves. WoW has, over the years, included a variety of other quests to break up the monotony. Firing cannons at a hundred bloodthirsty werewolves? Check. Flying proto-drakes to rescue wounded soldiers from the battlefield? Check. Literally acting as a questgiver and handing out kill 10 wolves quests to several NPCs with hilarious dialog? Check. Punching a dragon in the face? Check. Flying a motorcycle (yes, a motorcycle) and picking up a hot male elf mistaken as a chick? Check. They're small, but the enjoyment factor skyrockets when you get these kind of side missions in a zone. That's not to say WoW doesn't have kill 10 wolves, because it certainly does, but it feels a LOT less grindy when it's broken up by enjoyable quest chains. The more enjoyable quest chains, more memorable zones, vastly better dungeon content, and nearly flawless raids are what sets WoW leagues ahead, and are (some of the) reasons why it's been the biggest MMO for almost a decade.

PvP is bad in every MMO, but that goes without saying. The PvE is easier for players to jump into and easier for devs to produce, so rarely do they "focus" on PvP content, they just add it in as an afterthought. Pretty much the only exception to this was Guild Wars 1, which was a PvP-focused MMO for years until the developers figured it'd make bigger bank catering to a PvE audience, so they shat out Guild Wars 2, a very shallow yet graphically pretty PvE MMO with token awful PvP elements.

Sigh.
Excellent I don't have to waste my breath in here. Good job fellow raider and MMO-ite. *tips glass*

MMO's require some parts 'make your fun' and some parts 'meet people'. If neither are your cup of tea then the greatest and most enjoyable parts of the game are going to be closed off to you. But even the most introverted have something in common with someone over a fantasy MMO or Sci-fi MMO I find. Hell several people in my guild have married over the game. And are now expecting kids or already have them.

But if single-player gaming, like Yahtzee, is as far as you want to take your hobby, then just fucking do it! I'm not judging, no one else should either. Sometimes I like a few hours to myself in RPG heaven, or with a little indie title. And I'm finding less and less free time to do anything on WoW except scheduled raiding with my friends (Who over 5 years with now I think I can formally address them as such). It's how you wanna spend your time, and some enjoy the vast depths to which WoW has dug it's PvE hole, it's QUITE a tunnel, one fresh MMO's have zero to little hope of reaching on their launch or even a couple of years straight of developing the content. The rabbit hole that WoW has dug could be classified an underground kingdom, while most others have...warrens... maybe one or two large dwellings and EvE is probably the closest to it with a giant open end, user created space, but luckily as the two occupy different genres and niches, their coexistence is harmonious.
 

el grandos tabetos

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AuronFtw said:
Um... the raiding content. The nearly flawless, incredibly difficult group bosses that require a full 25 people with deep knowledge of their class and its abilities to be able to conquer. The cooperative group content unmatched in any other genre and any other game to date. The days/weeks of wiping to a really difficult monster as various members of your group struggle with specific mechanics, and to finally beat it, as a group, and rejoice as a group, with everyone shouting and cheering in vent as loot nobody even cares about gets passed out.

That's "what's so appealing" about WoW. You spend enough time raiding with the same guild, you start feeling like an extended family. You learn people's names, their hobbies, their habits, sometimes even interact with family members or significant others (who often have characters in the guild!). And with all that chemistry, 25 people throw themselves at difficult content to overcome it as a group. There's really no other feeling quite like it in any video game. Imagine the warm fuzzy feeling you get when you save the world in Dragon Age or whatever, except multiplied by 25; the funny idle chatter that goes on in vent, the camaraderie as guildies help each other learn fights, mechanics and sometimes even new classes. It's something completely missing from single player games, and something that smaller-group multiplayer games only get in small amounts.
I've tried some flashpoints (dungeons) in SWTOR, I can summarize them like this:
Player 1: "Activate shield nub"
Player 1: "OMG"
Player 2: "LOL our tank is complete idiot"
Player 2: "Its a 5 year ol"
Player 1: "Pull nub"
Player 1: "OMG"
*You have been votekicked by the group. Reason: Stupid*

It happens to someone in every single flashpoint, if not me then definitely someone else. I'd be frightened by the idea of playing with these kinds of people non-stop for days/weeks. That's why I mostly stick to the single player part of the game.