Target Australia will no longer stock GTA5

[Ilovechocolatemilk]

Ahhh, so that's the difference now?

It's not the only difference, but it's the most important one. It's like claiming the Nazis and Allies are equal because both have murdered people in cold blood. The difference is one advocates genocide while the other does not.

If truth and fairness is not everyone's goal, then communication is pointless. This is especially true for a medium such as games journalism, whose entire business is commuication.

So it's only censorship if you misrepresent the thing being censored?

The definition thickens.

...

Tell me:
a) Do you think the inaccuracies in the petition come from a deliberate attempt to misrepresent the game out of general hostility or in a bid to increase the petitions chance of success, or do you think they are the result of a lack of knowledge about the game and games in general?

b) Do you think the petition would have been less successful if it had carried the same meaning and intent but not the inaccuracies?

I would not write off a) since I've seen worse happen for less. Special interest groups are just as Machiavellian as any other political body.

As for b), yes. Australia has laws prohibiting sexual violence in media and this misrepresentation of content in GTA V triggered those alarms.

 

[linwolf]

I got to say I am really weird out that games defend a game being pull, especially for reasons that anyone that know about the game know are not true.

 

[WhiteNachos]

One scenario is asking people to change what they made or not make it again which is just criticism, the other is preventing people from seeing it.

But if you get people to change what they've made or stop making that type of content, you are preventing other people from seeing it, (seeing the content the current way it is, I mean).

Once again, the mental gymnastics here are very impressive.

In a broad sense yes. But only in a broad sense, in the same broad sense that birth control is like abortion. Just like if someone chose to make something else with no outside influence then it prevents people from seeing what they could've made.

Man the mental gymnastics to pretend that distributors are the same as content creators is impressive.

 

[JohnFei]

Then:
Hitman encourages the player to kill female characters!

Now:
GTA V encourages the player to kill female characters!

Same bald-faced lie, same shaming tactic. Same hypocrites and useful idiots whose kneejerk response is to defend liars. IIRC that petition site even asks you to donate too. Probably didn't make it up to $160k though eh?

And if the previous comparison is not enough, there's of course everybody's favorite uncle Jack Thompson. How in hells name did our liberals end up agreeing with an authoritarian nutjob like that, and even drive past him to the point he's going WOAH slow the fuck down ladies. That is the fucking question.

 

[WhiteNachos]

If anything, the whole Gamergate fiasco is more retaliation more than anything. It wouldn't be happening in the first place if these people didn't fire the first shots.

Retaliation does not justify hypocrisy in my eyes. Nor does it make said hypocrisy any less funny to me.

In the interests of clarification, exactly what event or actions do you consider to constitute those "first shots"?

One scenario is asking people to change what they made or not make it again which is just criticism, the other is preventing people from seeing it. If we're being honest then we gotta admit they're trying to prevent as many people from playing it as possible.

Oh me, oh my. Once again, those hairs be splitting before the merciless precision of your razor sharp mind.

Tell me, if someone changes what they make or cease making it, does that not prevent people from seeing that which they otherwise would have made? Methinks this particular hair is getting mighty thin.

You remind me of this person I saw who tried to argue that abortion was just as bad as birth control or pulling out because they both prevent babies from being formed.

Look I shouldn't have said it's like asking them to change the game they already made, that is censorship, but asking them to not make another GTA game? That's not censorship by any stretch, and I REALLY hope I don't have to explain the difference between that and trying to censor existing content.

Also, as I've said several times, the petition does not prevent anyone who wishes to see the wondrous masterpiece that is GTA5 from doing so.

No it doesn't, but not because of a lack of trying. Do you really think they're going to be satisfied with JUST Target and K-mart? That they only care if those stores sell them and no one else?

Lastly, and this is something of a tangent, I find it funny that "asking people to change what they made or not make it again which is just criticism" is an accurate description of the work of one Ms Sarkeesian, someone else who is often accused of censorship by the delightful folks of Gamergate and their ilk.

And? Did you assume I would defend their position for some reason? That I can't admit that an alleged gamegater might be wrong about something? I'm not part of gamergate and I've never said that Anita is trying to censor video games.

Thing is, they really didn't need to. The material in the video they linked, material which is most definitely in game, would have been quite sufficient to convey their message to those receptive to it.

Because it's something taken out of context. They pretend like the game encourages players to commit violence against women and showed a clip of someone committing violence against women. If IIRC what it doesn't show is that violence against men is treated the same way and that there are sometimes consequences for mudering civilians.

It's a rather poorly worded petition if you ask me. Hell, for a nominal fee I would have happily written them a better one that made the game seem just as bad if not worse without dealing in falsehoods and sketchy understandings of game mechanics.

So you think the game actually does encourage violence against women and all that jazz?

I personally believe that whoever wrote that petition believed what they were writing, but that is baseless speculation, I could be wrong.

A news article actually pointed out that it's just as violent against men and they still wouldn't concede to being wrong using some of the weakest logic I've ever seen. They probably did get their info wrong and now refuse to back down because it'd mean a large amount of humble pie after the fuss they kicked up.

 

[Leoofmoon]

OMG, IT'S CENSORSH...

No, hang on, it's a business responding to customer feedback and choosing not to sell a specific product that is still freely available to anyone who wishes to buy it.

"We are your customers, listen to our feedback! Hear our voices! Obey our comm... whoa, whoa, don't listen to those customers, they're feminazi SJW marxists!"

Heh. I love you all. I really do.

If you read the petition which I see you didn't you will see its really full of a bunch of lies, saying the game shows violent sexual actions being commuted on women and that they game encourages the player to kill this women. In the game the player can never rape someone so bingo boingo the sexual part is very much a lie in the game you can do as much violent acts as you want but the naughty bits of the fucker meeting the end of Mr. shorty Mc bang bang is not really counted. Not to mention it keeps saying the people effected by this are boys little kids who play it yet the game already had a +18 rating and thus was a target for adults.

So in short I think all of this was both parties taking a bucket over there head and fingering there own assholes.

 

[Signa]

snip

Look Zach,

I know you LOVE to argue, every time you dissect someone's post line-by-line shows this. You're going to need better ammo on this one than "Your experience doesn't count, and since I don't need facts to be right, you lose."

You're not even trying to argue, I think you're trying to piss me off by calling me a liar or irrelevant.

 

[WhiteNachos]

Then:
Hitman encourages the player to kill female characters!

Now:
GTA V encourages the player to kill female characters!

Same bald-faced lie, same shaming tactic. Same hypocrites and useful idiots whose kneejerk response is to defend liars.

It seems strange how some people's first response is to nitpick over whether this is censorship. We all know what's happening, saying whether it fits the definition is just semantics. That or they'll defend the store's right to do this as if anyone suggested that the stores should be forced by law to carry the game.

As someone from a country with really broad definitions of free speech, I can safely say that just because it's legal to do something doesn't mean you can't be an asshole for doing it.

Beyond that I haven't seen anyone defend the petition makers, although their silence in condemning them is telling.
This is the same bullcrap that the mainstream media flung at GTA back in the Jack Thompson era. They'll act like the game is somehow anti-prostitute because they're not invulnerable and because you can have sex them, and then they'll theorize about the real life violence it'll cause.

 

[WhiteNachos]

Don't you know, they're completely misrepresenting the game. THE HUMANITY.

Oh crap, you're right. I forgot that it was totally different now that it was something I cared about being misrepresented.

See, for that the punishment is severe. Misrepresentation is the worst.

Because none of us have ever heard of having sex with prostitutes in GTA and killing them to save money. Nope. Gamers have never heard of that, never done that. And because the game definitely doesn't implicitly endorse it

So allowing you to do something in a game is implicitly endorsing it?

Under this logic Rollercoaster Tycoon encourages you to build unsafe theme park rides and drown people, and SimCity encourages genocide.

, considering it's been present in numerous installments, and because the game(Especially not GTA V) definitely doesn't encourage you to keep money and not lose it. Definitely not.

Have you ever played GTA? Because if you kill people enough the cops will come after you and dealing with them more than makes up for the petty cash a civilian might drop.

But everything that's said in the petition is a lie

No one said everything in the petition is a lie, I mean they are correct in that GTA V is a game.
But seriously their most sensationalist/relevant claims definitely are lies so why are you defending them?

so it's definitely not people being "Professional Victims" and pretending to be offended)

I'm sorry how is anyone making money or getting more publicity from being offended at this?

Do you even know why people call others professional victims, because it sounds like you just realize the term is a bad thing and are making up reasons to call other people it.

 

[WhiteNachos]

Grisly detailed torture of a man? Eh.

Funny how when that was brought up by people, it was shouted down.

Vast majority of cops and other enemies you kill are men? Eh.

Funny how when that was brought up, it was also shouted down.

Actually, that's been one of the longest running critiques against the series.

But acknowledging these things would probably make it a lot harder to reframe things in a convenient fashion.

They mentioned the games 'depictions of violence against women' now it's been a while since I've played it but I don't recall any violence against women in the game, unless they are talking about how you are capable of killing female NPCs IN THE SAME WAY YOU CAN KILL MALE NPCs!

You can kill men after hiring them for sex? Must have missed that part. Can you tell me how to hire male prostitutes?

Don't you know, they're completely misrepresenting the game. THE HUMANITY.

So if someone said that games you enjoy playing are all about being a misogynist and encouraging you to kill women and that those games make you more likely to kill women in real life you'd be totally OK with this?

 

[WhiteNachos]

People defending this is pretty amusing.
"They weren't forced into not selling it, they just responded to a petition"
"They listened to their customers, it's a good thing right?"
"It's not censorship, it's a business decision"
"We shouldn't promote violence against women"

Amazing.

I assume you want/believe the opposite of these quotes you posted here, which would imply you WANT to promote violence against women.

I'm pretty sure he means that those people are agreeing with the idea that GTA promotes violence against women which is just rubbish.

 

[WhiteNachos]

Ridiculous. Women can have abusive boyfriends and female prostitutes can have respectful clients. Where do you draw the line? The only difference is a financial transaction, which says nothing about the personal integrity of the person in question.

The fact that a man makes the choice to purchase sex from a female stranger says *everything* about his personal integrity.

How is it immoral to pay for. Please someone tell me how consensual sex is just fine until money changes hands?

What about them? They make up less than 15% of women in the sex industry in even the most liberal estimates. The fact that a privileged minority are able to survive without violence doesn't mean the system isn't inherently violent

Yes. Yes, it does. Boxing is inherently violent and as such there are 0 professional boxers who have not experienced violence done to them.

- it just means that white skin, good looks, and some cash are sometimes enough to keep that violence from reaching you.

Or legalization. Making it so that prostitutes can work in strip malls and call police if there's a problem without fear of being arrested themselves.

When prohibition was still going selling alcohol had a lot of risk of violence associated with it, but now there isn't any. That's what happens when you relegate something to the black market.

 

[WhiteNachos]

When you're right, you're right. The transcript is actually much, MUCH worse. I quote it for everyone to witness feminist lunacy that ignores both the big picture and common sense:

Players are meant to derive a perverse pleasure from desecrating the bodies of unsuspecting virtual female characters.

It?s a rush streaming from a carefully concocted mix of sexual arousal connected to the act of controlling and punishing representations of female sexuality.

It's only much worse if you're still unconcerned with honesty.

So you failed to back up one claim, and ignored the other two. Can't say I'm exactly surprised.

How does this not back up his claim? Seriously explain it.

 

[WhiteNachos]

Your quote doesn't address:

-whether or not she's a con artist
-calling gamers misogynists
-gamers actually deriving pleasure

0/3.

The quote specifically says players are meant to derive a "perverse pleasure" from desecrating the bodies of women.

 

[WhiteNachos]

So you're against free speech. The idea that one person's speech matters more than another's is antithetical to the idea of free speech. Either everyone has it, or it's not free. Some pigs are not more equal than others.

I support the free speech of women, racialized folks, and other oppressed groups. I don't give a shit about the free speech of spoiled white dudes.

Well that's too damn because you can't have one without the other.

If free speech wasn't a guaranteed right for everyone do you really think white people would have their speech censored and oppressed groups wouldn't? If free speech protection goes away the first group of people to get censored will probably be the minorities and the oppressed, and if they aren't the first then they will definitely follow shortly.

 

[Teoes]

large snip

Can you perhaps not clog up the page by posting seven times in a row?

 

[ThePuzzldPirate]

"Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication or other information which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by governments, media outlets, authorities or other groups or institutions."

Now since for some reason anything to do with feminism in gaming has to now relate to Gamergate, no, writing to advertisers is not the same as getting a game pulled off the shelf. For them to correlate, the makers of that protest would have to write to Rockstar in trying to stop making future iterations of GTA. For "Gamergate" to have committed censorship, they would of tried to block people from reading those articles(and they temporarily have by hacking themselves or by 3rd party.)

Now you could argue that stopping people from making future products is considered censorship and I could agree with that, that itself though is a different argument and not relative to this one.

This is censorship, even if the companies have every legal right to do so. As a consumer, you have the option to continue shopping at Target or not and letting Target know why you refuse to shop there. This is not a morality debate.

 

[Erttheking]

If there was every any doubt that modern feminism is anything more than a female supremacy movement, this thread is your proof. Violence against men in games is expected, it's the norm, but violence against women in games needs to be shut the fuck down.

Hell, replace a few "women" or "minorities" with "white" and "men", and it starts to read a lot like the KKK. We need to fight prejudice everywhere people, even when it's against straight white men.

Because some nutjobs got one game banned in one store i n a country that has gotten a bad reputation for being a nanny state, feminism is a female supremacy movement? If you're gonna be spreading blatant falsehoods, getting better ammo first.

When feminists start burning symbols of Venus on the lawns of men and organize lynchings, THEN you can compare them to the KKK. Until then, more blatant falsehoods.

I agree. I look forward to the day when you actually start doing that. Because if this is your concept of fighting against prejudice against men, I'm underwhelmed to say the least.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Here's TotalBiscuit taking a look at it:


Annnd he nails the issue, in my opinion, while going over the petition.

Rightly points out Target displaying GTA 5 in the "toys" section of their advertisements being ridiculously stupid too (the image of which was posted earlier), so, woo.

 

[JarinArenos]

Under this logic Rollercoaster Tycoon encourages you to build unsafe theme park rides and drown people, and SimCity encourages genocide.

Ah, but how much more tempting would it be if those actions didn't have any consequences? Not everyone sees the suffering of other people (especially people they don't know) as a drawback in their decision making, so it often comes down to "can I get away with this?" Which is the core difference between the whole sexism-in-games argument and Jack Thomson-esque crying about murders. Most people can't get away with the latter. See also: police not liking the fact that their total legal autonomy is being questioned these past couple years.

OT: I have little opinion on what an ass-backwards company that sells prominently-displayed religious "inspirational readings" has decided to do with a game. I'm shocked they carried R18 games at all, considering how recently Australia added that rating.