Tekken 7 Character Excluded From U.S. Release After Negative Feedback

Alex1508

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Ilovechocolatemilk said:
Alex1508 said:
So hypersensitive indeed. He should grow a thicker skin.
Honestly, he's exercising his right as a creator. If NeoGAFers are going to be dickparades and ruin it for everyone, then the blame falls solely on NeoGAF. It's not easy creating something. If I had to choose between Mr. Harada and the entirety of NeoGAF, I know which one I'd choose.

Again, if you don't like something, don't buy it. Vote with your dollars.
What rights as a creator? To punish all his fanbase in an effort to create a lynch mob and then sick them at some ppl who were voicing their disatisfaction of his character design, because he was personally offended by it? Isn't this the behaviour allegdely used by the hypersensitive, pro-censorship, political correctness gone mad brigade?

Oh but wait, it's okay this time cause it's those damn SJWs who are the end of the stick, amirite? You know how it is. It's ok only when it's done in my favour. GTA5 taken off the shelves thanks to peer pressure of the "overly sensitive"? CENSORSHIP!!! HOW DARE THEY!!!. A character designer trying to use peer pressure as revenge tool against those that offended him? Absolutely ok. ( i understand it's lower stakes as in barely reaches the level of an eye watering slapfight with this one but it's the same mondus operandi)
 

Batou667

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It wouldn't be the first time a character has been removed from a Western release - anybody here old enough to remember the character "Ash" who was cut from the non-JP versions of Streets of Rage 3 / Bare Knuckle 3?

As for the Neogaf complainers... on the one hand, we want developers to create games according to their vision, and to offer diverse experiences free from the meddling of committee-based design decisions, because we all know these safe, dreary, identikit CoD games are killing gaming - but we also reserve the right to moan, gripe, harass and lobby when a creator makes a decision that doesn't align exactly with our personal tastes! Riiiight.
 

Alex1508

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Wandering_Hero said:
Alex1508 said:
Ilovechocolatemilk said:
Alex1508 said:
So hypersensitive indeed. He should grow a thicker skin.
Honestly, he's exercising his right as a creator. If NeoGAFers are going to be dickparades and ruin it for everyone, then the blame falls solely on NeoGAF. It's not easy creating something. If I had to choose between Mr. Harada and the entirety of NeoGAF, I know which one I'd choose.

Again, if you don't like something, don't buy it. Vote with your dollars.
What rights as a creator? To punish all his fanbase in an effort to create a lynch mob and then sick them at some ppl who were voicing their disatisfaction of his character design, because he was personally offended by it? Isn't this the behaviour allegdely used by the hypersensitive, pro-censorship, political correctness gone mad brigade?

Oh but wait, it's okay this time cause it's those damn SJWs who are the end of the stick, amirite? You know how it is. It's ok only when it's done in my favour. GTA5 taken off the shelves thanks to peer pressure of the "overly sensitive"? CENSORSHIP!!! HOW DARE THEY!!!. A character designer trying to use peer pressure as revenge tool against those that offended him? Absolutely ok. ( i understand it's lower stakes as in barely reaches the level of an eye watering slapfight with this one but it's the same mondus operandi)
But the outrage lynch mob were hoping someone would listen to them and remove a characther like Chloe. Well they got their wish, now they can enjoy the internet's reaction.

Didn't Kotaku try to start a lynch mob against those dirty white male cis gamers? What goes around comes around
What outrage lynch mob went after Harada? A few threads on Neogaf? What's next? The mass effect 3 ending movment was also a bloody revolution now? In what way are they different or special to all the other threads whinning about this or that character? In what way were those threads different from any other whinning thread in existence. Answer: none. Except Harada was oh so offended by it and wanted to punish them.

Also can you please stop shoving your "political incorrectness" agenda down my throat? Kotaku has nothing to do with this.

Batou667 said:
It wouldn't be the first time a character has been removed from a Western release - anybody here old enough to remember the character "Ash" who was cut from the non-JP versions of Streets of Rage 3 / Bare Knuckle 3?

As for the Neogaf complainers... on the one hand, we want developers to create games according to their vision, and to offer diverse experiences free from the meddling of committee-based design decisions, because we all know these safe, dreary, identikit CoD games are killing gaming - but we also reserve the right to moan, gripe, harass and lobby when a creator makes a decision that doesn't align exactly with our personal tastes! Riiiight.
Well yes, they are free to have the artistic vision approved by the fans.
 

Batou667

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Alex1508 said:
Well yes, they are free to have the artistic vision approved by the fans.
I'm not exactly sure what that even means.

Sure, people should be able to have their say. We (collectively) keep saying we want games to aspire to be artforms, and that involves a process of critique. However, I think the average activist-minded gamer has confused critique with mob-rule.

Think about the job of an art critic, a movie critic or a restaurant critic. They all limit the scope of their critique and analysis to the finished product - they don't intervene in the creation process and attempt to steer the product closer to their own tastes, one element at a time. That would be disastrous. So why is gaming seen as a medium where the fans deserve a say in the design and development of products that are in the design stage?
 

Weaver

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NeoGaf you'd best watch yourself if you've manages to take away my catgirls.
 

Alex1508

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Batou667 said:
Alex1508 said:
Well yes, they are free to have the artistic vision approved by the fans.
I'm not exactly sure what that even means.

Sure, people should be able to have their say. We (collectively) keep saying we want games to aspire to be artforms, and that involves a process of critique. However, I think the average activist-minded gamer has confused critique with mob-rule.

Think about the job of an art critic, a movie critic or a restaurant critic. They all limit the scope of their critique and analysis to the finished product - they don't intervene in the creation process and attempt to steer the product closer to their own tastes, one element at a time. That would be disastrous. So why is gaming seen as a medium where the fans deserve a say in the design and development of products that are in the design stage?
You were actually quite close to what i was trying to say and also it's very nice that some producers try to take into account the needs of their consumers when it comes to the products but in the end we got to the point where only the perceived tastes of the majority/consumers are ever taken into account to the detriment of any artistic vision. And what we all got out of this is this deluge of samey, yearly rereleases that the majority seems to love so much.
 

Ilovechocolatemilk

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Alex1508 said:
What rights as a creator? To punish all his fanbase in an effort to create a lynch mob and then sick them at some ppl who were voicing their disatisfaction of his character design, because he was personally offended by it? Isn't this the behaviour allegdely used by the hypersensitive, pro-censorship, political correctness gone mad brigade?

Oh but wait, it's okay this time cause it's those damn SJWs who are the end of the stick, amirite? You know how it is. It's ok only when it's done in my favour. GTA5 taken off the shelves thanks to peer pressure of the "overly sensitive"? CENSORSHIP!!! HOW DARE THEY!!!. A character designer trying to use peer pressure as revenge tool against those that offended him? Absolutely ok. ( i understand it's lower stakes as in barely reaches the level of an eye watering slapfight with this one but it's the same mondus operandi)
That is NeoGAF's own fault. Actions can precipitate reactions. Maybe NeoGAF will think twice before meddling with the creative process next time.

And again, if you don't like something, vote with your dollars. Outrage culture needs to stop. Allow everything and pay for what you like. Stop ruining what others like just because it offends your delicate sensibilities.
 

Beretta

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Ok, so someone mentioned "videogames as art product" and "vote with your wallet."

Indeed.

1) Problem is Harada's not some solo act and this is kind of what makes Hideo Kojima step on his dick with the Metal Gear series.
Harada's the executive director (presumably) but he's one of a couple of hundred people, maybe a few dozen of which are core production personnel, and unlike Rembrandt Tekken needs to sell a couple of million copies to recoup it's costs.

If the public votes loudly enough anti-Chloe the outcome could very much be not just "No Chloe" but "No More Tekken" either.

I don't think that's likely, but it's possible and given how dev costs just keep going it mob opinion matters more and more. Doubly so as the size of the mob keeps growing. It'd be pretty fucking dumb for any dev to ignore the international market -especially given how Tekken has always had a pretty effective international flavor. I mean, it has 2 out of a total 4 (T. Hawk, Chief Thunder from Killer Instinct 1) Native American characters in fighting games. How cool is that?! And two Brazilians with a third coming, and a Murderous Russian Guy... it's all pretty anime cliche`, but it's kinda sweet to be inclusive all the same.

Witness Capcom's grudging willingness to finally make a Korean character _merely_ a decade or so after Fatal Fury 2 and quite a few years after Tekken 2. Unsurprisingly she's a sexual-ish sadist, but Hwoarang was a thug before Tekken unfucked him and gave Baek something to do besides be an OP accidental murderer.

By comparison Chloe's design is pretty retrograde. She's a heterochromatic cheerleader-type from America. How original.


2) http://dailycaller.com/2014/11/25/smokin-hot-mma-fighter-is-a-total-knockout-video/

Meet Paige VanZant. She's 20 years old, is 115lbs, fights as a straw weight, was on The Ultimate Fighter, and is 3-1 professionally with 3 TKO's.
She is also pretty damn cute and could probably be a body-double of Lucky Chloe. Or maybe DoA's Mila.
The difference is of course that's she's an actual fighter using MMA with a boxing core, not Magic Neko Doki-Doki Glorious Heart Spark Fist.
So it's not like, as of course Li Xiaoyu has been demonstrating for a while, objections to Chloe are a question of plausibility it's one of execution and intention.


3) Did I mention I hate Lily? There are a couple of reasons.

One is that she's not a fighter either. Her fighting style itself is a nod to Battle Angel Alita (or Gunmu, whatever you prefer) which though a series I love it's almost blasphemous to me to take independent, aloof-yet-compassionate and scrappy Alita and translate Panzer Kunst (created by war survivors turned terrorist mercenaries for killing in zero-G) into the "Graceful Miracle Prodigy Art" of a flawless, spoiled, sadistic rich girl who's interest is an almost note-for-note "homage" to Karin Kanzuki.

Another is though Asuka Kazama wasn't a great design from the start at least she had some kind of ambitious original concept: she's Jin's brawler distant cousin come to save him from himself. She didn't give a damn 'bout no 'Devil Gene,' she was here to smack some sense in to him because Jun wasn't.
...okay.

Not amazing, but still some place to start if somewhat transparently a decision to recycle Jun's fighting style back into circulation. Good enough.

(IMO one of Tekken's real strengths has been a willingness to make character actually about _tangible_ ambitions. You'll notice Paul, the closest thing to a Ryu analog, is a second-string character (at best) and generally is a bit of a butt-monkey for his knuckle-headed fixation on just proving he's the best without taking care of anything else. Hwaorang's much the same as until 5 he's pretty much just a street thug with a bruised ego. The series isn't holding him up as the noble embodiment of some arcane philosophical principle; he's a jerkbag who doesn't like to lose. Even Kuma wants to be in charge of everything to impress Panda; goofy, but tangible.

But then there's Lily and now they're Schoolgirl Rivals pretty much straight out of any Shonen High Schoolgirl Fighters manga because Lily's trolling her because she's actually only Lily's closest thing to a genuine friend because tragically lonely perfect girl blah blah blah yuri implications.

Charcter. Arc. Fail.

Remember the fan poll from earlier this year? Remember that two of the options were a really old guy who improbably kicked ass with Geezer-jitsu? And another was a salmon that couple flop around squirting eggs? And that the #2 fan pick was "Paul-chan"?

Here's what that says to me: "fuck, I'm running out of ideas!"

Those are _terrible_ ideas (ok I find some Cute Bruiser version of Paul kind of appealing; I am teh failz) because they're just _dumb_ -they're not about even faking fighting, they're just Random Japanese Wackiness! that's at best bemusing to the rest of the world and at worst a direct incentive to maybe see if Virtua Fighter's still a thing.

Or DoA. "Sure it's kind of embarrassingly sexist and face-palmingly melodramatic, but Bass is an American Veteran and Bayman's not a stock Murderous Russian Thug and Rig ...oh wait, another Korean Jerkass Villain. Well, at least they're all fighters..."


4) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_kangaroo.
Was actually a thing. Not a good thing -animal abuse and that, but still a thing.
Ditto Bear Bating -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear-baiting


So let's wrap this epic up.

Take any even a little questionable design in Tekken and you end up with "is a fighter/warrior/predator-thing" eventually, but Harada's imo running out of ideas so he's rooting around in the cultural dustbin and so he already dredged up Lily, he's implementing Chloe, and all this matters because Characters and Setting are Tekken's greatest strengths.

Want a mechanically superior 3d fighting game? Choose Virtua Fighter -"learn to buffer throw escape commands based on your knowledge of the opposing fighter's arsenal and the vagaries of moment-by-moment positioning!"

Want a sexier, flashier fan service title? Try Dead or Alive -"punch your rival into a helicopter then initiate your devastating victory jiggle!"

Tekken's rather nicely balanced between the two, between improbable but plausible (Kuma, Yoshimitsu, Heihachi, Jack, etc) and ground-truth face-smash badasses (Kazuya, Bruce, Steve, Craig, Nina, Brian, etc) with a few mildly fan-servicey/charming characters (Leo, Michelle/Julia, Xiaoyu, Lei, Lee, etc) set in a slightly-more-magical world that all the same is pretty recognizable.

It's also fairly non-Dragonball-escalation-ish which is nice. There are superhuman things and people, but they're generally very rare and almost always come with overwhelming negatives and there's a minimum of both VF's and DoA "Hidden World" silliness of impossibly powerful corporate conspiracies or global demonic invasions or other crap that would utterly re-order global politics if anyone got so much as a minute's worth of cameraphone footage.

Chloe doesn't threaten all that, but she does impugn it a little. Maybe she's okay as a non-plot DLC charater like Miharu. Remember her?
No? Terrific -all's well, and we can keep on the business of demonic bloodlines and alien invasions and immortal ninja cyborgs and bikini-commandos and....
 

omega 616

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Hey, another slutty designed female character ... throw another name onto that mountainous list!

Surprised some people actually said "oh come the fuck on, another skinny, large chested female dressed ul like a typical female Halloween costume!" ... I was starting to think I was the only person sick of seeing bare naked ladies.

I'm a straight guy with Internet, if I want to girls in bikinis, I can see girls in bikinis .... but I wanot to play a game. I want girls to be as badass as guys, not just gender swapped but badass in a female way!

It's all just fucking fan service and really patronising, like we are all insecure that a woman could beat up a man. So you have bad asses like Jin, Bryan Fury, Hihatchi, some Asian Nazi looking guy and a ninja ...then for the women, a cat girl, a cow girl and a latex wearing assassin.... can't think of any more females in tekken. It's just silly.
 

Sarusas

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why would anyone complain about tekken being weird? this is the game with the boxing dinosaur, the lovesick bear and the devil man right?
 

Baddamobs

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omega 616 said:
...then for the women, a cat girl, a cow girl and a latex wearing assassin.... can't think of any more females in tekken. It's just silly.
There's also Panda.


...What? You said other female characters.

To be fair, Tekken is much, MUCH better then most other fighting games for this kind of thing. Look up Emilie (skirt's a little short, but that's about it), Ling Xiaoyu (who's got an awesome outfit, btw), and then there's fricken Eleonor or "Leo" (though the gender thing is a little muddled, though you could argue that just makes it even more inclusive, if you catch my drift).

Not saying those three NEARLY justify the others, just that I think Tekken is a heck of a lot better for this kind of thing then a lot of other fighting games. It's still got a long way to go, but at least it's a few steps closer in the right direction.

OT: I'm already in Europe; I don't have much of a say in the matter.
 

Scarim Coral

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See this is why we don't have nice thing that is if I was in the state!

Geez, haven't those people ever seen Decapre Street Fighter 4 when it come to unoriginal and lazy character design?

I liked the authority like power he just throw there, reminding everyone he can alter the game dramatically if he wanted to and beside, if you don't like that character that much, just don't played as her!

Still I kind of find it strange that he is doing this just because of just one site (well ok a couple other places have been rude toward the character) but in saying so I can be very spiteful at times so I can relate.
 

omega 616

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Baddamobs said:
I knew about panda but what gender is panda? There is also female mukojin (spelling?) But she's butt naked.

Oh, I know tekken is pretty good ... which is kind of sad. Tekken has serious female clothing issues and it's a good example of female clothing!

I don't want every female character to wear a turtle neck and baggy pants ... I just want appropriate clothing. Its half about respecting women, that they are worth more than just how they look but the other half of it is, I don't to be thought of as only being interested in games 'cos the females are almost naked.

Take Moxxi from borderlands, I think that is appropriate.... she's a bar maid and a bit flirty, so sure ... get them over sized boobs in a corset. Now think about Jack from mass effect 2 ... bad ass female criminal, who is wearing straps to cover nothing more than her nipples!

Take Flemeth from dragon age ... in origins she looks like a witch who lives in the wilds, a haggard old lady, but then at the start of 2 (which is set at the exact same time as origins) she is very attractive and her boobs are out!

My penis doesn't play games, my mind does! Stop trying to get him involved and get my mind to appreciate her character.
 

masticina

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She is weird

Then again Tekken boxing kangaroos, just another odd character on the row for me. I don't mind her being around not sure where to place her though. It is really just an oddly placed odd character that makes you scratch your head.

We shall see I hope everybody gets her. And at least tries her out she might be good or maybe not.
 

Beretta

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infohippie said:
Why does he even think NeoGAF is at all relevant? To ANYTHING?
I don't know, nor do I have any inclination to find out what NeoGAF is, but it could be because he's taking NeoGAF's community as representative of Tekken's Western audience.
The presumed furor about Chloe there was mirrored at the Tekken GameFAQS threads, the GFaqs DoA threads, 4chan, and at least two RPG communities I lurk at.

Whatever he thinks of NeoGAF, Harada's not wrong in also thinking the rest of Tekken's fanbase had a tangibly negative reaction as well.
 

josemlopes

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Good for him, everyone is being childish about content they dont like (not just this case with Tekken) so he can be aswell for everyone to see how retarded it is.