Teller Sues Over "Stolen" Magic Trick

Andy Chalk

One Flag, One Fleet, One Cat
Nov 12, 2002
45,698
1
0
Teller Sues Over "Stolen" Magic Trick


Silent magician Teller wants a rival to stop using "Shadows."

Performed by Teller, the smaller, quieter half of the magical duo Penn and Teller [http://www.pennandteller.com/], the "Shadows" illusion [which is playing below for the benefit of those of you who haven't seen it] is pretty impressive stuff. Teller uses a knife to cut stems and petals off the shadow of a rose projected onto a screen; as he does, pieces of the "real" flower fall to the floor.

In the clip, his partner Penn declares that nobody knows how the trick is done and nobody will ever figure it out, but as it turns out, someone did. Dutch magician Gerard Bakardy saw Teller perform the trick in Vegas and developed his own version, and then, in what I believe is a pretty clear violation of the Magicians' Code, began selling an instructional kit, complete with fake rose and performance DVD, for $3000. That's right, three grand to spoil the magic of an illusion.

Teller, predictably, was none too happy, and after using a DMCA takedown notice to force the removal of a promotional video, he contacted Bakarady and demanded that he stop using the trick. Teller even offered to buy Bakardy out, but they couldn't settle on a price. So now they're going to court.


The big, obvious question is whether or not it's possible to copyright a magic trick. The most obvious answer is no; magicians have been performing each other's tricks for years, after all, and I've never heard of anyone needing a license to stuff a woman into a box and then saw her in half. But if Teller's description of "Shadows" as a "dramatic work" holds water with the courts, the situation changes somewhat.

New York Law School Professor James Grimmelmann told Ars Technica [http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2012/04/silent-magician-teller-files-copyright-suit-over-stolen-shadow-trick.ars?comments=1#comments-bar] that copyright law protects pantomimes and "choreographed works," so Teller's case could very well come down to how closely Bakardy's performance matches his own. Even so, Grimmelmann said, "Teller has an uphill fight on his hands."


Permalink
 

Dastardly

Imaginary Friend
Apr 19, 2010
2,420
0
0
You can copyright a performance, but tricks could (only perhaps) be patented. More specifically, some of the gadgets and processes could be patented.

Copyright is a lot easier to enforce, because you actually have "copyright" the moment you create a work. All that's left, then, is to prove that you were the first to have that right over the creation (which is all that registration does). If it's obvious you're the one in the video, there's less need to register.

Patents, however, have to be registered to have any real teeth. If Teller didn't think to patent this stuff beforehand... or if the trick uses a different process or gadget to approximate the same effect... well, he's up a creek.
 

gigastar

Insert one-liner here.
Sep 13, 2010
4,419
0
0
Well with a trick like that under his belt you could see why he wants to keep it under wraps.

Plus if its his signiture performance that just adds another reason to keep people from copying.
 

Gabanuka

New member
Oct 1, 2009
2,372
0
0
I dont see why you'd want to steal another magicians trick, kinda ruins the whole point of being a magicians as well as making you a douche.
 

Wintermoot

New member
Aug 20, 2009
6,563
0
0
companies being forbidden to sell stuff in certain countries
92 year old war vets pirating movies
Piratebay down in the UK
magician suing other magicians.
this is going to be a interesting year in the copyright news.
 

Krion_Vark

New member
Mar 25, 2010
1,700
0
0
Gabanuka said:
I don't see why you'd want to steal another magicians trick, kinda ruins the whole point of being a magicians as well as making you a douche.
The way magicians used to work was figure out other magicians tricks then make them better to one up them. It would create rivalry and good shows but if you're going to figure out the trick then sell it you need to just GTFO.
 

Evilsanta

New member
Apr 12, 2010
1,933
0
0
Woah, That is one hell of a illusion/trick.

I can understand why he wantts to keep it a secret.

Also copying someone elses trick sound like douchebag behavior.
 

freakydan

New member
Jan 28, 2010
331
0
0
Anyone else reminded of The Prestige? One guy comes up with an impressive trick that he believes no one can figure out, then a rival magician goes about trying to figure it out, coming up with his own methods. The only thing left is for Teller and this other guy to keep one upping each other.
 

therandombear

Elite Member
Sep 28, 2009
1,649
0
41
I wouldn't mind him copying and perhaps "improving" the trick, but selling it? That's just low and very douchy.
 

ShockValue

Addicted to coffee
May 8, 2008
25,612
0
0
Evilsanta said:
Woah, That is one hell of a trick.

I can understand why he wantts to keep it a secret.

Also copying someone elses trick sound like douchebag behavior.
Illusion, Michael. A trick is something a whore does for money.
 

Evilsanta

New member
Apr 12, 2010
1,933
0
0
ShockValue said:
Evilsanta said:
Woah, That is one hell of a trick.

I can understand why he wantts to keep it a secret.

Also copying someone elses trick sound like douchebag behavior.
Illusion, Michael. A trick is something a whore does for money.
Well, Sorry... Why do you have to point it out in the first place?! So that you can laugh at me in the open? Is that it?! *Runs away crying*

Erhm...

Anyways I have corrected it. Though I still think "trick" applies.
 

OneBrokePony

New member
Jul 20, 2011
61
0
0
I wonder what the outcome of this will be. I assume you can't copyright or patent the concept of cutting a flower; he'd have to patent the method and have to detail how it's done. Unless I'm completely wrong on how that process works, there probably isn't a good outcome for Teller on this case. Either Bakarady sells a method of doing this, or Teller has to explain why Bakarady's version is or isn't the real one.
but I could be wrong.

I don't know why anyone else would add this trick to their repertoire though. It'd just be the trick that they ripped off from Teller and people would know that.
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 16, 2010
18,684
3,592
118
Ok, yeah, if someone else is doing the same trick as you, it'd be annoying, but copyrighting it? C'mon.

Also, yeah, you aren't supposed to tell people how to do them, but that's hardly set in stone. Hell, he went and demonstrated how some things are done himself.
 

midij19

New member
Apr 20, 2010
11
0
0
i don't see a problem with another magician reverse-engineering a trick and using it in a performance, but he fact that he actually is selling the mystery just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. what an asshole.
BTW what does this have to do with gaming?
 

Greg Tito

PR for Dungeons & Dragons
Sep 29, 2005
12,070
0
0
ShockValue said:
Illusion, Michael. A trick is something a whore does for money.
You beat me to the punch. That's why you always leave a note.

Greg
 

VonKlaw

New member
Jan 30, 2012
386
0
0
I'm curious about this - I get that a magician could patent the illusion/trick to stop people copying it, but wouldn't that involve documenting how the illusion/trick is done in the patent? And aren't patents publically viewable by anyone so that you can work out whether your idea is already patented?

Sounds like a rock-hard place situation - you either don't patent it and have people blab or patent it and everyone can work out how its done.
 

Yan007

New member
Jan 31, 2011
262
0
0
Newsflash: Magicians sell tricks all the time. I picked up magic when I was younger and what you buy in magic shops are not props really, but the knowledge of how to do certain tricks. Go to any magic forum worth its name and you will see people selling tricks to one-another. Also, while 3 grands is a lot of money for a trick, it is not unheard of.

Kudos to the guy for figuring it.