Texas wants to secede from the Union?

[ElephantGuts]

Your objection rests on the idea that the right of Texans (or anyone) to decide their own government is subject to the discretion of foreign men. I call this tyranny and reject it. It is for no one but Texans to decide what treatment they will endure. Once again, your arguments could be used to deny freedom to the United States of America in 1776, and were.

In practice, Texas should try to resolve its differences through diplomacy and solidarity. Because doing so is good policy. But liberty has no proper channels. If, in our hypothetical, Texans seceded, they would indeed not be asking anything. Nor should they. A free man does not ask permission to be so. He does not stand before a king or parliament to prove he needs liberty, he simply exercises it at will. Otherwise you cannot call it so. A point was reached when Jefferson could not be so humiliated to ask his King another time, and abandoning proper channels, he took his freedom.

What mortal can claim the right to decide which of us deserves to be master of his own fate? The right of a people to decide their own government is inalienable, and there is no higher authority but God. I did think we were assuming popular support in this case, as my entire premise is the will of the people.

If that is the attitude of the United States government, then it has become contrary to its original purpose. It should be reformed, changed, or abolished. While true that Texas cannot stand alone against the imperialist might of the federal government, God bless men who die fighting for their freedom. May I always find myself in their ranks.

For a free man, there is only liberty or death.

Well first off let me say that I'm not a hypocrite in saying that Texas has no right to secede but the colonies in 1776 did; if the American colonists hadn't already tried for a long time to gain more freedom through peaceful means I would say that they were wrong to secede. As it is I'm not saying they were completely in the right; let's just say if I was a British military officer I would have no problem crushing the rebellion and killing as many traitors as I could. But as I said the differences between the two situations are clear: the Thirteen Colonies were not represented in British government but were heavily taxed, and the British government refused to work with them after many peaceful attempts. Not to mention that a good portion of all the colonists wanted to rebel.

Texas, on the other hand, is treated as fairly as every other state, yet out of all 50 only they find issue. The majority wins in a democracy, and it's hardly the "will of the people" if only 1/50th of the country wish to rebel. And the only issue they are having seems to be that they think taxes are too high and that they could get along without the rest of the USA, which I hardly consider to be complaints worthy of an actual secession. And, Texas hasn't yet made formal attempts to solve the problem through negotiations with the US government; all they've done is whine and complain and threaten to secede.

And frankly I don't see why you're talking so much about freedom, liberty, and fate, because this isn't at all about that. They have full rights, are as free as anyone else in the United States, and aren't complaining about that. All they want is to pay less money. I'll agree with you that a man has the right to fight for freedom or liberty, but to make such a fuss about not wanting to pay taxes is just crazy.

I also want to address these lines of yours (your first): "Your objection rests on the idea that the right of Texans (or anyone) to decide their own government is subject to the discretion of foreign men. I call this tyranny and reject it. It is for no one but Texans to decide what treatment they will endure."

You call the United States government "foreign men" who should not be making decisions over Texans. But they're not foreign; are you forgetting that Texas is part of the United States of America? We are the same country! They are the government, so obviously they rule over the country they are the government of, which clearly includes Texas. That's their job. It is this sort of state-centric view that caused the mass secession of the south and the Civil War. Texas (and you by the sound of it) needs to accept that it is part of a larger country, they are Americans, and they are subject to the American government. If they can't do this then they're bad Americans, bad patriots, and I don't want to share a country with them. And no that isn't justification for them to leave. The United States rules over that land no matter who lives there, that is as long as they treat the occupants fairly.

Yes I realize that I am sounding somewhat like an emperialist or perhaps even a tyrant, especially in that last paragraph. But there is the one major difference that seperates the unjust rebellion from the unjust rule: how the government in question treats the people in question. The US government treats Texans completely fairly, and they have no valid argument against the government worthy of a secession from the United States. If the government did indeed start to treat Texans unfairly and take away their rights, and refused to stop doing so, then I will gladly support Texas in the establishment of their own nation. But for now, Texans will need to find a more appropriate solution for their tax issue.

 

[bad rider]

This totally gives the republic of dave a chance to exsist, come on everyone who's with me!

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

Your entire argument is that Texas as a whole seeks secession. If you'd actually read what Texans and other people who know Texans are saying, they are not seeking secession from the Union. Most of them joke about it. While most of them know they could survive without the rest of the US, they also know that a large portion of their state funding is created out of Federal pork barrel budget inclusions. They also feel a very strong allegiance to the US military since a large portion of their economy revolves around companies like Raytheon, Boeing, and other Federally contracted corporations. Texas does not feel oppressed - they feel liberated by taking advantage of their connections to the Federal government. Chances are if one group tried to force a Texas succession, a majority of Texans would allow the US government to come in and remove these people.

The Texan Secessionist Party wants Texas to suceded purely based on an issue that does not necessarily include Federal government issues. One of their primary goals is to abolish all forms of government, including the Texas legislature, that all men have their own land are a country unto themselves.

Perry recently signed a bill to allow oil companies in Texas to legally declare domain on other people's property if there is oil present. The Texas Secession Party flared up angrily, since it steps on one of their fundamental beliefs. So Perry is now pandering to them in the hopes of buying off a few more votes during the upcoming election and staving off political opponents who want to bury him before that.

Now, had you read anything said by anyone else in the thread and paid attention to history lessons, and not stuck to trolling a few people, there wouldn't be a large argument going on. You could have ignored the "we'll just steamroll them" comments, but you yourself claimed you'd also fight on the side of secession, which isn't going to happen anytime soon.

No no, my argument is one of principle, not application. I am not arguing that Texas should secede at this moment. I only say all states have the right to secede, in principle if not in practice. All that trivia about Texas politics does not come into the principle of it. Below is the post I was responding to, which seems to me to deny Texans this right. Our entire conversation following has been about the principle behind secession, not the finer points of Texas politics.

Secessionists, huh? Idiots. Let them try to secede. We'll go down here, kill some of 'em off, and change their minds. I don't mean to sound offensive to Texans, I mean to sound offensive to idiots who think their state is going to secede from the USA.

 

[McClaud]

Then ignore the comment. When I read Gut's comment, I saw that he corrected himself in the end to say, "Just the secessionists that cause trouble, and not the Texans who love their country."

Which I agree isn't the right policy, but then he corrects himself later, and you still went, "OMG HYPOTHETICALLY THEY ARE IN THE RIGHT TO FORCE TEXAS TO SECEDE FROM THE UNION ILLEGALLY." But the reality is that it IS the point of Texas politics. They gave up their right to secede from the Union after the Civil War in return for money and the ability to form a state militia.

Just let it drop.

 

[ElephantGuts]

No no, my argument is one of principle, not application. I am not arguing that Texas should secede at this moment. I only say all states have the right to secede, in principle if not in practice. All that trivia about Texas politics does not come into the principle of it. Below is the post I was responding to, which seems to me to deny Texans this right. Our entire conversation following has been about the principle behind secession, not the finer points of Texas politics.

Secessionists, huh? Idiots. Let them try to secede. We'll go down here, kill some of 'em off, and change their minds. I don't mean to sound offensive to Texans, I mean to sound offensive to idiots who think their state is going to secede from the USA.

I was not aware of this. As I said in my last post I would support a secession if it was justified, but all I was saying was that Texas's tax issue does not justify a secession. If we're talking about what does justify a secession then I'll agree with you that a government's repression of a people's rights and refusal to correct this does justify a recession, but as I was saying this does not apply to Texas. Nor did it apply to the Southern states when they seceeded from the Union in the 1860s, I might add.

 

[Jerious1154]

I don't understand people who say that Texas could survive on its own. Seceding from the United States would violate the Constitution. The US would take military action. The Texas National Guard would not beat the US army.

 

[Typecast]

This thread made my day. I hope they do, it would be interesting to see if Texas really had the guts. Then they'd probably be classified as a rogue state XD

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

Well first off let me say that I'm not a hypocrite in saying that Texas has no right to secede but the colonies in 1776 did; if the American colonists hadn't already tried for a long time to gain more freedom through peaceful means I would say that they were wrong to secede. As it is I'm not saying they were completely in the right; let's just say if I was a British military officer I would have no problem crushing the rebellion and killing as many traitors as I could. But as I said the differences between the two situations are clear: the Thirteen Colonies were not represented in British government but were heavily taxed, and the British government refused to work with them after many peaceful attempts. Not to mention that a good portion of all the colonists wanted to rebel.

Texas, on the other hand, is treated as fairly as every other state, yet out of all 50 only they find issue. The majority wins in a democracy, and it's hardly the "will of the people" if only 1/50th of the country wish to rebel. And the only issue they are having seems to be that they think taxes are too high and that they could get along without the rest of the USA, which I hardly consider to be complaints worthy of an actual secession. And, Texas hasn't yet made formal attempts to solve the problem through negotiations with the US government; all they've done is whine and complain and threaten to secede.

And frankly I don't see why you're talking so much about freedom, liberty, and fate, because this isn't at all about that. They have full rights, are as free as anyone else in the United States, and aren't complaining about that. All they want is to pay less money. I'll agree with you that a man has the right to fight for freedom or liberty, but to make such a fuss about not wanting to pay taxes is just crazy.

I also want to address these lines of yours (your first): "Your objection rests on the idea that the right of Texans (or anyone) to decide their own government is subject to the discretion of foreign men. I call this tyranny and reject it. It is for no one but Texans to decide what treatment they will endure."

You call the United States government "foreign men" who should not be making decisions over Texans. But they're not foreign; are you forgetting that Texas is part of the United States of America? We are the same country! They are the government, so obviously they rule over the country they are the government of, which clearly includes Texas. That's their job. It is this sort of state-centric view that caused the mass secession of the south and the Civil War. Texas (and you by the sound of it) needs to accept that it is part of a larger country, they are Americans, and they are subject to the American government. If they can't do this then they're bad Americans, bad patriots, and I don't want to share a country with them. And no that isn't justification for them to leave. The United States rules over that land no matter who lives there, that is as long as they treat the occupants fairly.

Yes I realize that I am sounding somewhat like an emperialist or perhaps even a tyrant, especially in that last paragraph. But there is the one major difference that seperates the unjust rebellion from the unjust rule: how the government in question treats the people in question. The US government treats Texans completely fairly, and they have no valid argument against the government worthy of a secession from the United States. If the government did indeed start to treat Texans unfairly and take away their rights, and refused to stop doing so, then I will gladly support Texas in the establishment of their own nation. But for now, Texans will need to find a more appropriate solution for their tax issue.

Before I get into it, are we not assuming our hypothetical seceding state has popular support of its people? You've brought that up twice now- I had assumed that was the situation we were discussing, and without it my point is moot.

 

[Seekster]

This thread made my day. I hope they do, it would be interesting to see if Texas really had the guts. Then they'd probably be classified as a rogue state XD

Oh Texas has the guts, we just have no reason to succeed at this time.

 

[ElephantGuts]

Well first off let me say that I'm not a hypocrite in saying that Texas has no right to secede but the colonies in 1776 did; if the American colonists hadn't already tried for a long time to gain more freedom through peaceful means I would say that they were wrong to secede. As it is I'm not saying they were completely in the right; let's just say if I was a British military officer I would have no problem crushing the rebellion and killing as many traitors as I could. But as I said the differences between the two situations are clear: the Thirteen Colonies were not represented in British government but were heavily taxed, and the British government refused to work with them after many peaceful attempts. Not to mention that a good portion of all the colonists wanted to rebel.

Texas, on the other hand, is treated as fairly as every other state, yet out of all 50 only they find issue. The majority wins in a democracy, and it's hardly the "will of the people" if only 1/50th of the country wish to rebel. And the only issue they are having seems to be that they think taxes are too high and that they could get along without the rest of the USA, which I hardly consider to be complaints worthy of an actual secession. And, Texas hasn't yet made formal attempts to solve the problem through negotiations with the US government; all they've done is whine and complain and threaten to secede.

And frankly I don't see why you're talking so much about freedom, liberty, and fate, because this isn't at all about that. They have full rights, are as free as anyone else in the United States, and aren't complaining about that. All they want is to pay less money. I'll agree with you that a man has the right to fight for freedom or liberty, but to make such a fuss about not wanting to pay taxes is just crazy.

I also want to address these lines of yours (your first): "Your objection rests on the idea that the right of Texans (or anyone) to decide their own government is subject to the discretion of foreign men. I call this tyranny and reject it. It is for no one but Texans to decide what treatment they will endure."

You call the United States government "foreign men" who should not be making decisions over Texans. But they're not foreign; are you forgetting that Texas is part of the United States of America? We are the same country! They are the government, so obviously they rule over the country they are the government of, which clearly includes Texas. That's their job. It is this sort of state-centric view that caused the mass secession of the south and the Civil War. Texas (and you by the sound of it) needs to accept that it is part of a larger country, they are Americans, and they are subject to the American government. If they can't do this then they're bad Americans, bad patriots, and I don't want to share a country with them. And no that isn't justification for them to leave. The United States rules over that land no matter who lives there, that is as long as they treat the occupants fairly.

Yes I realize that I am sounding somewhat like an emperialist or perhaps even a tyrant, especially in that last paragraph. But there is the one major difference that seperates the unjust rebellion from the unjust rule: how the government in question treats the people in question. The US government treats Texans completely fairly, and they have no valid argument against the government worthy of a secession from the United States. If the government did indeed start to treat Texans unfairly and take away their rights, and refused to stop doing so, then I will gladly support Texas in the establishment of their own nation. But for now, Texans will need to find a more appropriate solution for their tax issue.

Before I get into it, are we not assuming our hypothetical seceding state has popular support of its people? You've brought that up twice now- I had assumed that was the situation we were discussing, and without it my point is moot.

Alright now I'm confused: are we still talking about Texas or some hypothetical state? Because considering Texas's situation yes the majority of Texans may support a sucession but they are the minority out of all the people in the country, as opposed to 1776 when the majority of people throughout all the Colonies were against the British.

But yes, whether we're talking about a hypothetical state or Texas, the majority of the people actually rebelling do support it.

 

[Jeronus]

The first sentence says and i am pulling this from the link above,"Texas Gov. Rick Perry fired up an anti-tax "tea party" Wednesday with his stance against the federal government and for states' rights as some in his U.S. flag-waving audience shouted, "Secede!""

Anyone see anything wrong with that? No. Let me explain. If you are seriously talking about secession, you shouldn't be waving flags of the country you are planning to secede from! Texas is the only state in the Union with the power to secede but it is highly unlikely. Governor Rick needs to shut his damn mouth. I doubt he could get a quarter of the state support to secede much less enough to secede.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

Alright now I'm confused: are we still talking about Texas or some hypothetical state? Because considering Texas's situation yes the majority of Texans may support a sucession but they are the minority out of all the people in the country, as opposed to 1776 when the majority of people throughout all the Colonies were against the British.

But yes, whether we're talking about a hypothetical state or Texas, the majority of the people actually rebelling do support it.

You and I can't even agree on what we don't agree on. hehe.

 

[Agertor]

When a pawn decides to go to a third party, that is one less protecting the king, soon enough despite what you think, there will then be a fourth and fifth and sixth and so forth. Once the king is left without its defense, whomever you think the enemy is.... shall take that king. Basically what I am saying It could be a domino effect, not just for the U.S. It would be nice to see a little anarchy here and there, get some things going. Whether you agree or disagree with me is fine, but personally I'd enjoy the people to start thinking on their own and to separate themselves. Because if they don't like this government, they will not like the next, and after so many separations and protests and sort, anarchy comes from it. I'm no specialist, but it seems to me with such mixed views, if it were to happen that it would be something whether you believe in it or not to come about.

 

[Sapper V]

This is ridiculous. Makes me ashamed to live in Texas...

 

[matsugawa]

I feel I can say this because most Texans I know actually live in New Mexico, and live in New Mexico because they couldn't wait to get the hell out of Texas, so to Texas I say on the subject of secession:

"AND STAY OUT!" Then, before I slam the door, "Oh, and take Arizona with you."

I'm all for a limited government, and if threats of secession are what it will take to make that happen, then it might as well be Texas to draw the line in the sand. I'm not sure about Texas being broken up into four smaller states; Frankly, I've always felt the state of California should be broken up into North and South (if anything, it might be entertaining to watch them fight over Fresno).

In all seriousness, this is just a lot of big-talk coming from one of the most outspoken states in the union (rivaled only by California and Arizona). If it happens, then fine, if not, then it's no surprise.

 

[ElephantGuts]

Alright now I'm confused: are we still talking about Texas or some hypothetical state? Because considering Texas's situation yes the majority of Texans may support a sucession but they are the minority out of all the people in the country, as opposed to 1776 when the majority of people throughout all the Colonies were against the British.

But yes, whether we're talking about a hypothetical state or Texas, the majority of the people actually rebelling do support it.

You and I can't even agree on what we don't agree on. hehe.

Indeed. I'm not even sure that we disgree on anything. Let's recap. I agreed that a state would have the right to seceed if the rights of its citizens were being infringed upon by the government, but Texas's tax problem does not meet these criteria and is not serious enough to warrant a secession. You were saying roughly the same thing about what would necessitate a secession. So I don't see any real conflict. Though it seems I think that a state has a bit more of a duty towards its country and government, and has no reason to take offense at anything unless it is treated unfairly.

 

[Seekster]

I feel I can say this because most Texans I know actually live in New Mexico, and live in New Mexico because they couldn't wait to get the hell out of Texas, so to Texas I say on the subject of secession:

"AND STAY OUT!" Then, before I slam the door, "Oh, and take Arizona with you."

I'm all for a limited government, and if threats of secession are what it will take to make that happen, then it might as well be Texas to draw the line in the sand. I'm not sure about Texas being broken up into four smaller states; Frankly, I've always felt the state of California should be broken up into North and South (if anything, it might be entertaining to watch them fight over Fresno).

In all seriousness, this is just a lot of big-talk coming from one of the most outspoken states in the union (rivaled only by California and Arizona). If it happens, then fine, if not, then it's no surprise.

Im giving you the finger right now.