The Actual Threat to Democracy

davidmc1158

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None, because you phrased that highly aggressively at the end. The book you're asking me to find is one that will teach children that others are trying to force them to be something, and now you've included fearmongering.
And yet, you entered into this conversation with the position that members of the LBGTQ+ community were "perverted" and "corrupt" which is inherently hostile in its nature. By the very nature of the position you have taken, you are claiming that people who are LBGTQ+ are inherently evil and then claim that anyone who pushes back against that position are "hostile."

You, and the specific community you have been supporting, create an external/societal pressure on people for simply being who they are. A pressure that is detrimental to their mental health and one of the prime reasons why the suicide rate is so high in that community.

People do not choose who they are attracted to. They are what God created them to be. You oppose that, and in doing so go directly against the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Or, perhaps to use the words of someone who is far more articulate than myself:

 

tstorm823

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Like, do you think liking flowers and rainbows is inherently feminine, committing the same error as the author did as a literal child?
Not inherently, though there are connections culturally between the concepts.
And yet, you entered into this conversation with the position that members of the LBGTQ+ community were "perverted" and "corrupt" which is inherently hostile in its nature. By the very nature of the position you have taken, you are claiming that people who are LBGTQ+ are inherently evil and then claim that anyone who pushes back against that position are "hostile."
And yet no, I've never said any of that. None of that is my position. Frankly, I think it is relatively rare that it's actually the members of a group causing public problems like this. Most of the controversial books were written explicitly for adult audience and were never meant for children, it's probably not actually gay people putting them in schools, but rather the ultra politicized people (independent of identity) who treat their political persuasion as gospel.

You are being hostile. Making up words to put in my mouth is hostile. I didn't call anyone corrupt or perverted.
You, and the specific community you have been supporting, create an external/societal pressure on people for simply being who they are. A pressure that is detrimental to their mental health and one of the prime reasons why the suicide rate is so high in that community.
People are committing suicide because they are living joyless lives. The greatest joys in life all come in service to others in some way shape or form, and while being exiled from a community certainly doesn't help, people are choosing exile now. People are abandoning everyone around them. Like, I'm a Catholic, I know lots of Catholics, I know a fair number of gay Catholics who don't have any particular problems because they're not making a fuss about it. They've got loving relationships rather than many partners, they're not flying the pride flag everywhere they go, you don't even know anything about their sexuality unless they introduce you to their partners. Not cause they're hiding anything, just because if you go about your life not worried about it, you don't spontaneously combust into rainbows. We can argue about whether people are born gay, or trans, or if trans is even real, but you can't tell me people are born to dress a specific way, that's not a thing.

And now we see young people increasingly doing the opposite of living a normal, happy life while gay, they're not gay and choosing all the extraneous stuff entirely on purpose. There are situations like young women, who are content with femininity, who are attracted to men, and then say "I'm not a cis-woman, I'm trans-femme queer". And then they lecture their parents and fly the rainbow flags and yell about cis people on the internet. But that's just a straight woman who decided to be "persecuted". Because we've made a culture that idolizes marginalized groups, people are marginalizing themselves. Including and respecting people does not require putting them on a podium. Judging or avoiding people based on their hostile behavior is not hating them for any inherent qualities.

There's an irony in the testimonial about HIV in This Book Is Gay. While it is horrible in downplaying the seriousness of STDs, particularly that one, and while "HIV made me a better person and gave me purpose" is a terrible perspective, it is understandable how the man's life played out. The person writing was irresponsible and promiscuous and hedonistic, and as a result was predictably depressed. After contracting HIV, he was careful and conscientious and found a long-term partner, he got involved in a community combatting the spread of HIV, and was unsurprisingly in a much better place. Once his life was about other people and not just himself, he got happier. Unfortunately, that's not spelled out by the testimonial or the rest of the book, which actually addresses gay promiscuity with basically "gay people do have more partners, that's just who they are, use condoms" as though AIDs is the only downside of hedonism. Joy comes in service to others. Self-loathing comes from self-obsession. There are plenty of happy gay people who have figured this out.
Unlike Legal Eagle, this guy is not an idiot. He's just a pure grifter, performing for an audience.
 

Trunkage

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And yet no, I've never said any of that. None of that is my position. Frankly, I think it is relatively rare that it's actually the members of a group causing public problems like this. Most of the controversial books were written explicitly for adult audience and were never meant for children, it's probably not actually gay people putting them in schools, but rather the ultra politicized people (independent of identity) who treat their political persuasion as gospel.
Ah, yes. ultra-politicized librarians strike again
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Not inherently, though there are connections culturally between the concepts.
Then why bring that up as an example?

People are committing suicide because they are living joyless lives. The greatest joys in life all come in service to others in some way shape or form, and while being exiled from a community certainly doesn't help, people are choosing exile now. People are abandoning everyone around them. Like, I'm a Catholic, I know lots of Catholics, I know a fair number of gay Catholics who don't have any particular problems because they're not making a fuss about it. They've got loving relationships rather than many partners, they're not flying the pride flag everywhere they go, you don't even know anything about their sexuality unless they introduce you to their partners. Not cause they're hiding anything, just because if you go about your life not worried about it, you don't spontaneously combust into rainbows. We can argue about whether people are born gay, or trans, or if trans is even real, but you can't tell me people are born to dress a specific way, that's not a thing.
Meanwhile, my catholic gay uncle tried to commit suicide because he was very Catholic and was/is constantly told, by his religion that he is very fond of, that he couldn't work as a choir director doing the religious music he loves so much because of his being gay, that his love and marriage were an abomination, and that if he acted on his feelings he would deservedly go to hell.

That you personally know some people who ignore the church's teachings and have the cognitive dissonance required to put up with that doesn't change the church's teachings.
 
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Silvanus

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No I didn't. I ascribed to you the thought process that you'd rather the situation were better. The books being reasonable and appropriate is the better possibility. That the option is aligned with your political preference doesn't somehow make it wanting a worse outcome.
There are more aspects of this situation than the content of the book. You and I are seeing negatives in different areas. You're seeing it in the content of the book; I'm seeing it in the reaction of right-wingers.

You said I "need" right-wingers to be hateful. That's the equivalent of someone telling you that you want the books to be awful-- a preference for the situation to be worse if it reinforces a bias.
 
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Hawki

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Which it isn't. Even the examples you brought up relate to interaction with others, and others' gender expectations alongside the person's own understanding. I mean, you yourself brought up conformity vs nonconformity, both of which only exist in relation to outside norms.

The issue here is that you've read the book, but you clearly did so with an approach of, "let's see what this foolish confused sinner is wrong about". Reading it with a bolt-shut mind and a pre-determined dismissiveness of the author is going to affect how you interpret the content.
...oh don't mind me, I'm just noticing that there's more discussion about books here than the "what are you reading?" thread. :(

People do not choose who they are attracted to. They are what God created them to be. You oppose that, and in doing so go directly against the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Or, perhaps to use the words of someone who is far more articulate than myself:
Ah yes, "God" created gay people, who, by His law, are destined to end up in Hell.

...have fun with that I guess. :(
 

09philj

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The US has a party system that's not set up to deal with political pluralism stacked on top of a system of government that's not prepared for partisan politics, within a culture that has deeply embedded the idea that the US political system is great and does not need to be changed. Simultaneously the US is undergoing a significant political shift as long suppressed labour movement politics are finally moving to the fore and latent fascist theocratic tendencies are becoming more aggressive in response to finding that their secure positions and core assumptions can be challenged but still appeal to a large portion of the population, particularly those who are looking for someone to blame now that the American Dream has well and truly run out of gas. A lot of this is very bad and I have absolutely no confidence it can be fixed because that would first require acknowledgment from the general population, the media, and the political establishment that it is broken.
 
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tstorm823

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Then why bring that up as an example?
Because it's in the book. Near the end the author is dressing boyishly to avoid being perceived as a girl, and thinks:
"How did I end up with the wardrobe of a bland teenage boy? I want to define myself by what I am rather than what I am not."
Meanwhile, my catholic gay uncle tried to commit suicide because he was very Catholic and was/is constantly told, by his religion that he is very fond of, that he couldn't work as a choir director doing the religious music he loves so much because of his being gay, that his love and marriage were an abomination, and that if he acted on his feelings he would deservedly go to hell.
Your uncle doesn't have a Catholic marriage, and calling your personal decisions equivalent to a Church sacrament is sacrilegious. If he can't understand that, he shouldn't be trying to lead anything in the Church. If he can understand that and insists he is married anyway, then he really shouldn't be trying to lead anything in the Church.
You said I "need" right-wingers to be hateful. That's the equivalent of someone telling you that you want the books to be awful-- a preference for the situation to be worse if it reinforces a bias.
Yes, that is both what you're accusing me of and a factor in my perspective I have admitted to. Of course I'd prefer to imagine that I and everyone else can overcome bias and look for truth, but I know that is not the case, and in considering my potential biases, one is absolutely a preference for people I usually agree with to be telling the truth, which would lead to hope that the books are as terrible as they said.
 

Silvanus

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Yes, that is both what you're accusing me of and a factor in my perspective I have admitted to. Of course I'd prefer to imagine that I and everyone else can overcome bias and look for truth, but I know that is not the case, and in considering my potential biases, one is absolutely a preference for people I usually agree with to be telling the truth, which would lead to hope that the books are as terrible as they said.
Right. So when you said you'd prefer the books were innocuous, you weren't telling the truth?
 

tstorm823

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Right. So when you said you'd prefer the books were innocuous, you weren't telling the truth?
Let me put it this way: I enjoy the taste of milkshakes, but I am lactose intolerant, and really don't like how my stomach feels after a milkshake. Those are two separate motivations, one which is stronger than the other. If I tell you I don't want a milkshake, it's not a lie because I said that I like how they taste.

If I looked into these books and found them to be innocuous, I would be happy about it, as my desire for kids to be cared for properly is greater than my desire for conservatives to win an argument. I am unhappy to have found them problematic, even though it means "my side" is right.

For you, the metaphorical milkshake tastes good, and makes you feel good after. That combines to a stronger motivation that when the factors are in conflict. It's clearer if I do it the other way: if someone hates milkshakes and gets sick from drinking them, they are much more heavily motivated to avoid them than someone who finds them delicious.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Because it's in the book. Near the end the author is dressing boyishly to avoid being perceived as a girl, and thinks:
"How did I end up with the wardrobe of a bland teenage boy? I want to define myself by what I am rather than what I am not."
And that's still not "girl", so what's your point?
Your uncle doesn't have a Catholic marriage, and calling your personal decisions equivalent to a Church sacrament is sacrilegious. If he can't understand that, he shouldn't be trying to lead anything in the Church. If he can understand that and insists he is married anyway, then he really shouldn't be trying to lead anything in the Church.
Brilliant, thank you for proving my argument
 

tstorm823

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And that's still not "girl", so what's your point?
It is "girl". The epiphany is that the author had a wardrobe and public image defined around not being identified as a girl. A person liking flowers does not make them a girl, but a person trying to avoid being associated with girls avoided flowers because of how those concepts are connected socially.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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It is "girl". The epiphany is that the author had a wardrobe and public image defined around not being identified as a girl. A person liking flowers does not make them a girl, but a person trying to avoid being associated with girls avoided flowers because of how those concepts are connected socially.
Amazing completely incoherent
 

Silvanus

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If I looked into these books and found them to be innocuous, I would be happy about it, as my desire for kids to be cared for properly is greater than my desire for conservatives to win an argument.
Cool. So this is the courtesy you're unwilling to extend to others, while simultaneously complaining that they refuse to see your perspective.

By saying your opponents only believe what they do because they need conservatives to be awful, you've argued that that motivation is greater than all others for then. Meanwhile, for yourself, you're saying you'd be able to look past the personal political preference.

It is "girl". The epiphany is that the author had a wardrobe and public image defined around not being identified as a girl. A person liking flowers does not make them a girl, but a person trying to avoid being associated with girls avoided flowers because of how those concepts are connected socially.
Author: "I realised I should define myself positively rather than negatively"

Tstorm: "You see? It's better to CONFORM".
 
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tstorm823

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Amazing completely incoherent
Your inability to comprehend is not a counterpoint.
Cool. So this is the courtesy you're unwilling to extend to others, while simultaneously complaining that they refuse to see your perspective.

By saying your opponents only believe what they do because they need conservatives to be awful, you've argued that that motivation is greater than all others for then. Meanwhile, for yourself, you're saying you'd be able to look past the personal political preference.
At no point in this conversation did I say you only need conservatives to be awful. I've explained in several different ways that desire happens to align with what you would already want the outcome to be.

" You agree with the worldview of the authors, so you go in wanting the content to be good for its own sake, and you have the political interest in defending it"

I have been telling you that you have multiple motivations this entire argument, just that those motivations are aligned.
Author: "I realised I should define myself positively rather than negatively"

Tstorm: "You see? It's better to CONFORM".
"Defined negatively" in the book was acting to specifically avoid conformity. How did the author end up with the wardrobe of a bland teenage boy? By avoiding wearing anything people would associate with girls. The issue was not in acting different than others, the issue was in acting against ones own interests just to be different than others.

You see the word "conform" and immediately imagine people that don't want to do that same as everyone else but are being forced to. But most social norms are that way because people like them, and in most situations, you end up doing what everyone else is doing, not because you're forcing yourself to conform, but because it's the option you desire anyway. Someone who actively avoids conformity is still forcing themselves to behave in ways they don't actually want to.
 

Silvanus

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At no point in this conversation did I say you only need conservatives to be awful.
I've explained in several different ways that desire happens to align with what you would already want the outcome to be.
You didn't say I only need it... but you did attribute my position to that wish, which clearly means you think it is an overriding factor for me. Which is a refusal to see things from my point of view.

" You agree with the worldview of the authors, so you go in wanting the content to be good for its own sake, and you have the political interest in defending it"

I have been telling you that you have multiple motivations this entire argument, just that those motivations are aligned.
All of these motivations being personal desires for what I want to be true, rather than any intellectually honest assessment.

You're tying yourself in knots to justify this, but the fact remains that you attributed the positions of others to their own personal wishes, while saying that you yourself have looked beyond that. And simultaneously said that we're the ones refusing to see the other side.

"Defined negatively" in the book was acting to specifically avoid conformity. How did the author end up with the wardrobe of a bland teenage boy? By avoiding wearing anything people would associate with girls. The issue was not in acting different than others, the issue was in acting against ones own interests just to be different than others.
:rolleyes:

No, avoiding typically female fashion does not automatically lead to the wardrobe of a "bland teenage boy". One can define oneself positively and still identify differently from one's birth sex.

You see the word "conform" and immediately imagine people that don't want to do that same as everyone else but are being forced to. But most social norms are that way because people like them, and in most situations, you end up doing what everyone else is doing, not because you're forcing yourself to conform, but because it's the option you desire anyway. Someone who actively avoids conformity is still forcing themselves to behave in ways they don't actually want to.
No, I don't necessarily see conformity as a result of force or pressure. Lots of people are perfectly comfortable with sex-typical gender expression.

But some are not. And your mistake is to see any example of nonconformity as confusion and self-defeat. You are the one applying blanket judgement here; seeing the word "nonconformity" and immediately imagining people doing it just to spite the norm. You seemingly believe nonconformity cannot come from any positive place, cannot merely come from an appreciation and identification for something outside the mainstream.

It's not sticking to sex-typical gender expression that results in social pressure. It's your attitude towards anyone that doesn't.
 
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09philj

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An actual threat to our US democracy

Back in the early 20th century the Liberal government in the United Kingdom was having a lot of difficulty getting a large package of welfare policies past the Conservative dominated unelected House of Lords, which at that time held a more significant amount of power. The Prime Minister, Herbert Henry Asquith, proposed that the power of the Lords should be significantly curtailed, and called an early election to get a clear mandate for this, which they duly won. In order to get the Lords to agree to curtail their own powers, Asquith managed to persuade the King that if the Lords refused they should just pack the House of Lords with enough Liberals to get the measures passed. The Lords realised they were beaten and agreed that their power should be reduced to a mostly advisory level. This is not necessarily the exact approach the Democrats should take with what is ostensibly supposed to be an independent judicial body, but without adopting a similarly aggressive attitude towards government reform their agenda will keep being undermined.
 

tstorm823

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You didn't say I only need it... but you did attribute my position to that wish, which clearly means you think it is an overriding factor for me. Which is a refusal to see things from my point of view.

All of these motivations being personal desires for what I want to be true, rather than any intellectually honest assessment.

You're tying yourself in knots to justify this, but the fact remains that you attributed the positions of others to their own personal wishes, while saying that you yourself have looked beyond that. And simultaneously said that we're the ones refusing to see the other side.
I'm not tying myself in nots, I'm repeating the same position over and over. This started as a response to you accusing me of bias, to which I said you weren't wrong, I do have biases, some which match your description. I then performed a similar analysis on you, with the allowances I afforded myself, to show your biases. You've managed to interpret that as the exact opposite of what I said, as though I am pretending I have no bias and you have no good will, but you imagined all of that.

No, avoiding typically female fashion does not automatically lead to the wardrobe of a "bland teenage boy".
Now you're not ever strawmanning me, you're strawmanning the book itself