The Alien Franchise Needs to End

[the December King]

I quite enjoyed Prometheus. And I get a special joy out of watching people freak out about how it shouldn't exist because they don't like it. Because god forbid a movie got made tangentially related to something you enjoy that you don't personally enjoy.

I totally agree with you. I liked Prometheus.

I mean, if the sciencey people all did exactly what they should in these situations, and didn't do silly things like poke alien vagina-cobras, or toss around WMDs, or take their helmets off in alien biospheres, these movies would be boring as shit, and Prometheus is anything but boring in my opinion.

 

[R0guy]

I mean, if the sciencey people all did exactly what they should in these situations, and didn't do silly things like poke alien vagina-cobras, or toss around WMDs, or take their helmets off in alien biospheres, these movies would be boring as shit

I don't know if you've actually watched the original Alien or Aliens, but somehow they managed to get the ball rolling without doing ridiculous things.

Just compare to Alien 1:

1)Falling close to some weird egg by mistake isn't shoving your face intentionally into a creepy "WTF-snake".
2)Wanting to let a close friend back into the spaceship without quarantine isn't the same as infecting someone with a Biological WMD, while you're on that same ship. (I mean friggin' seriously?).
3) They never took their helmets off in an alien biosphere, as opposed to... Herp-a-Derp...

See what people mean?

 

[Exley97_v1legacy]

I quite enjoyed Prometheus. And I get a special joy out of watching people freak out about how it shouldn't exist because they don't like it. Because god forbid a movie got made tangentially related to something you enjoy that you don't personally enjoy.

I totally agree with you. I liked Prometheus.

I mean, if the sciencey people all did exactly what they should in these situations, and didn't do silly things like poke alien vagina-cobras, or toss around WMDs, or take their helmets off in alien biospheres, these movies would be boring as shit, and Prometheus is anything but boring in my opinion.

I LOVED Prometheus. Loved it, loved it, loved it. I've heard all the complaints, and I get it. Alls I can say is, the faulty logic and plot holes never bothered me in the moment and don't bother me any more than the similar flaws in Alien (why isn't Ashe, the goddamn science officer, on the away team to alien ship? How the hell did they not know something was INSIDE Kane? How does Ripley know that the beacon is a warning?) or Aliens (how in the holy f--k does Weyland-Yutani go back to LV-426 to set up Hadley's Hope and NOT hear the alien ship beacon? How are the colonists JUST discovering the ship years later? Why did the Marines leave NO ONE on that Sulaco? Are they colassally stupid or just supremely, Red Viper-ish overconfident?)

 

[Zen Bard]

But I was so looking forward to the Aliens musical. :/

"Aliens Take Manhattan", coming soon. It's inevitable.

I hear Bono and The Edge are already working on the lyrics and music with some help from Andrew Lloyd Webber.

 

[the December King]

I mean, if the sciencey people all did exactly what they should in these situations, and didn't do silly things like poke alien vagina-cobras, or toss around WMDs, or take their helmets off in alien biospheres, these movies would be boring as shit

I don't know if you've actually watched the original Alien or Aliens, but somehow they managed to get the ball rolling without doing ridiculous things.

Just compare to Alien 1:

1)Falling close to some weird egg by mistake isn't shoving your face intentionally into a creepy "WTF-snake".
2)Wanting to let a close friend back into the spaceship without quarantine isn't the same as infecting someone with a Biological WMD, while you're on that same ship. (I mean friggin' seriously?).
3) They never took their helmets off in an alien biosphere, as opposed to... Herp-a-Derp...

See what people mean?

Sigh... yes, I have seen the movies.

But, are you sure you're not just splitting hairs there with your definitions of ridiculous things?

I should probably state that I liked Alien better than Prometheus up front, before I continue. It's just a better story. Nonetheless...

1)in Alien, the fact that they were wandering around like that in the first place was careless anyways, especially seeing as how they struggled to move about in those suits. Not a good getup for spelunking, at any rate. Besides, he did in fact walk over to the pulsing egg thing after he fell, and, well, actually shoved his face into a creepy WTF thing, right? And 2), while the quarantine / emotional debacle was way better than a robot infecting someone with a WMD, it still doesn't change the fact that a rather obvious and critical mistake was made. However 3), in Alien, yes, they never removed their helmets in a silly place... I guess there is no real parallel with Alien to Prometheus on this count, because the bulk of Alien takes place in the Nostromo, not the Engineer craft. So... point conceded.

I just think that people are wearing blinders if they think that stupid mistakes don't happen in the 'classics'- stupid decisions are a staple of horror. Was this one harder to believe than most? Maybe. But I still enjoyed it.

 

[the December King]

I quite enjoyed Prometheus. And I get a special joy out of watching people freak out about how it shouldn't exist because they don't like it. Because god forbid a movie got made tangentially related to something you enjoy that you don't personally enjoy.

I totally agree with you. I liked Prometheus.

I mean, if the sciencey people all did exactly what they should in these situations, and didn't do silly things like poke alien vagina-cobras, or toss around WMDs, or take their helmets off in alien biospheres, these movies would be boring as shit, and Prometheus is anything but boring in my opinion.

I always thought that it would strain credibility to take the first team of researchers to the first-ever extra-terrestrial archaeological site and put them in the first-ever contact with extra-terrestrial life in a setting that has paradigm-shifting implications for the whole of Earthly biological history not to mention human civilization and then expect them to contain their excitement and do things by the book.

But that doesn't matter, because it has dialogue in Proto-Indo-European. All movies with dialogue in Proto-Indo-European are automatically redeemed. It doesn't matter if there are any other problems with them in terms of plot, pacing, acting, or special effects. Once the PIE comes out, the movie is automatically "good enough."

Aaaah... I see. Well, we all have triggers, I guess. You, for example, are what I believe is scientifically classified as a "language-o-phile".

Or something.

I dig vagina-cobras.

 

[the December King]

I quite enjoyed Prometheus. And I get a special joy out of watching people freak out about how it shouldn't exist because they don't like it. Because god forbid a movie got made tangentially related to something you enjoy that you don't personally enjoy.

I totally agree with you. I liked Prometheus.

I mean, if the sciencey people all did exactly what they should in these situations, and didn't do silly things like poke alien vagina-cobras, or toss around WMDs, or take their helmets off in alien biospheres, these movies would be boring as shit, and Prometheus is anything but boring in my opinion.

I LOVED Prometheus. Loved it, loved it, loved it. I've heard all the complaints, and I get it. Alls I can say is, the faulty logic and plot holes never bothered me in the moment and don't bother me any more than the similar flaws in Alien (why isn't Ashe, the goddamn science officer, on the away team to alien ship? How the hell did they not know something was INSIDE Kane? How does Ripley know that the beacon is a warning?) or Aliens (how in the holy f--k does Weyland-Yutani go back to LV-426 to set up Hadley's Hope and NOT hear the alien ship beacon? How are the colonists JUST discovering the ship years later? Why did the Marines leave NO ONE on that Sulaco? Are they colassally stupid or just supremely, Red Viper-ish overconfident?)

Exactly- you get it.

Now, I can totally understand how, for some, it does strain their suspension of disbelief when stupid things happen or are perpetrated. I DO see that. And Prometheus is totally guilty of that for alot of people. But as you pointed out, there are elements to alot of stories that make one scratch their heads, if one thinks about them.

 

[R0guy]

I should probably state that I liked Alien better than Prometheus up front, before I continue. It's just a better story. Nonetheless...

Come now, there's no need to say that, I'm not trying to "Fix" a "wrong" opinion on the internet here. Just giving another perspective. My opinion was that Prometheus was confusing at every level and disappointing.

Although fair warning, don't get me started on AVP, especially the sequel.

THEN, you'll be in trouble!

 

[Exley97_v1legacy]

I quite enjoyed Prometheus. And I get a special joy out of watching people freak out about how it shouldn't exist because they don't like it. Because god forbid a movie got made tangentially related to something you enjoy that you don't personally enjoy.

I totally agree with you. I liked Prometheus.

I mean, if the sciencey people all did exactly what they should in these situations, and didn't do silly things like poke alien vagina-cobras, or toss around WMDs, or take their helmets off in alien biospheres, these movies would be boring as shit, and Prometheus is anything but boring in my opinion.

I LOVED Prometheus. Loved it, loved it, loved it. I've heard all the complaints, and I get it. Alls I can say is, the faulty logic and plot holes never bothered me in the moment and don't bother me any more than the similar flaws in Alien (why isn't Ashe, the goddamn science officer, on the away team to alien ship? How the hell did they not know something was INSIDE Kane? How does Ripley know that the beacon is a warning?) or Aliens (how in the holy f--k does Weyland-Yutani go back to LV-426 to set up Hadley's Hope and NOT hear the alien ship beacon? How are the colonists JUST discovering the ship years later? Why did the Marines leave NO ONE on that Sulaco? Are they colassally stupid or just supremely, Red Viper-ish overconfident?)

Exactly- you get it.

Now, I can totally understand how, for some, it does strain their suspension of disbelief when stupid things happen or are perpetrated. I DO see that. And Prometheus is totally guilty of that for alot of people. But as you pointed out, there are elements to alot of stories that make one scratch their heads, if one thinks about them.

Interesting note about Alien: in the first draft of Walter Hill & David Giler's script (not Dan O'Bannon & Ronald Shusett's original Star Beast script) there is a scene where Dallas confronts Ash about concealing the fact that Kane had a chestburster inside of him. Not sure why that scene was ommitted from the final product, though that scene is problematic fron a plot hole standpoint as well because....well, why would Dallas wait until after Kane's death to confront Ash, unless of course he didn't know about until after he checked in with Mother. But again, since it's established that Dallas has access to Mother, why would he not review the medical data about Ash at some point before his death? It strains logic.

Here's the link to the script. Also of note: immediately after the Dallas-Ash confrontation, there's another ommitted scene where Dallas and Ripley get together in the shuttle and....well, see for yourselves....

http://www.dailyscript.com/scripts/alien_shooting.html

 

[the December King]

I should probably state that I liked Alien better than Prometheus up front, before I continue. It's just a better story. Nonetheless...

Come now, there's no need to say that, I'm not trying to "Fix" a "wrong" opinion on the internet here. Just giving another perspective. My opinion was that Prometheus was confusing at every level and disappointing.

Although fair warning, don't get me started on AVP, especially the sequel.

THEN, you'll be in trouble!

No, it's cool, I didn't really feel pressured or forced to change my stance. Alien, at least to me, WAS the better movie of the two. I totally get that these are opinions, we good. I also enjoyed Prometheus, is all.

And I wasn't about to touch AVP at all- best leave sleeping dogs lie!

 

[ForumSafari]

Prometheus managed to get so fucked up in production that it became a quasi prequel to Alien, and all it did was confuse people and annoy them with bad acting and a weird ass script.

Prometheus is where you can take Alien, though admittedly Prometheus wasn't the best film in the end. The Aliens as the tool of unknowable beings with incomprehensible and horrifying end goals, the story and practice of creating a tool like that and the kind of creature that would view it as a good idea.

For the record I love Prometheus for what it tried to do, it ticks enough of my favourite boxes that I still enjoyed it despite its' flaws. It's one of the few films I can remember that I can describe as genuinely Lovecraftian.

 

[rdaleric]

it is becoming tired at this point...... did enjoy Judge Dredd vs. Aliens though

 

[Exley97_v1legacy]

I should probably state that I liked Alien better than Prometheus up front, before I continue. It's just a better story. Nonetheless...

Come now, there's no need to say that, I'm not trying to "Fix" a "wrong" opinion on the internet here. Just giving another perspective. My opinion was that Prometheus was confusing at every level and disappointing.

Although fair warning, don't get me started on AVP, especially the sequel.

THEN, you'll be in trouble!

I've consistently said that AVP Requiem is without a doubt the absolute worst major studio picture I've seen in the last 15 years, and maybe ever. It's irredeemable in every sense of the word. It's the science fiction/action version of "The Day The Clown Cried" (okay I've never seen it, but still...). I'd watch Highlander 2 and Battlefield Earth back to back with a Catwoman chaser before I even thought about letting that movie near my blu-ray player.

 

[R0guy]

Interesting note about Alien: in the first draft of Walter Hill & David Giler's script (not Dan O'Bannon & Ronald Shusett's original Star Beast script) there is a scene where Dallas confronts Ash about concealing the fact that Kane had a chestburster inside of him. Not sure why that scene was ommitted from the final product, though that scene is problematic fron a plot hole standpoint as well because....well, why would Dallas wait until after Kane's death to confront Ash, unless of course he didn't know about until after he checked in with Mother. But again, since it's established that Dallas has access to Mother, why would he not review the medical data about Ash at some point before his death? It strains logic.

It's a weird thing and not uncommon with Ridley Scott movies. He tends to sacrifice plot-filling scenes in order to improve the pacing or shorten the length of the movie.

Have you seen Kingdom of Heaven? Specifically the scene where the Queen goes completely crazy with grief, and seems overwhelmed with guilt because she got married to the evil Templar guy? To the point where she cuts her hair and exiles herself among the "peasants".

That striked me as weirdly excessive.

Until I saw the director's cut version and it turned out she had a son, who had leprosy and she euthanised him because she didn't want him to suffer like her brother did.

 

[Exley97_v1legacy]

Interesting note about Alien: in the first draft of Walter Hill & David Giler's script (not Dan O'Bannon & Ronald Shusett's original Star Beast script) there is a scene where Dallas confronts Ash about concealing the fact that Kane had a chestburster inside of him. Not sure why that scene was ommitted from the final product, though that scene is problematic fron a plot hole standpoint as well because....well, why would Dallas wait until after Kane's death to confront Ash, unless of course he didn't know about until after he checked in with Mother. But again, since it's established that Dallas has access to Mother, why would he not review the medical data about Ash at some point before his death? It strains logic.

It's a weird thing and not uncommon with Ridley Scott movies. He tends to sacrifice plot-filling scenes in order to improve the pacing or shorten the length of the movie.

Have you seen Kingdom of Heaven? Specifically the scene where the Queen goes completely crazy with grief, and seems overwhelmed with guilt because she got married to the evil Templar guy? To the point where she cuts her hair and exiles herself among the "peasants".

That striked me as weirdly excessive.

Until I saw the director's cut version and it turned out she had a son, who had leprosy and she euthanised him because she didn't want him to suffer like her brother did.

It's funny, I was just thinking of Kingdom of Heaven -- which I actually liked -- and how the theatrical version completely eliminated the son. I saw the Director's Cut first so maybe that's why I liked it.

As for Prometheus, that's one thing about the movie that I wished was a little different. Some of the cut/adjacent material was pretty great. I loved the viral videos Scott and his son did before the movie was released, particularly Weyland's Ted Talk, and I thought they added a lot to the overall movie. But they're not really part of the movie. Same with Janek's talk with Vickers about pressing the button. I thought it was pretty good character dev but alas, it didn't make the final cut.

 

[Diddy_Mao]

My personal opinion has always been that the ultimate failure of the franchise has been an attempt to recreate or out do Aliens with little concern about what made Alien such a great movie.

That's not to say that every subsequent film should have tried to recapture the "unknown terror" bit, just that they didn't have to try to constantly one up the Colonial Marines action movie bit.

One of the recurring themes in the Alien series is the danger or agenda based science and politics. The intent of using the Xenomorphs (or the engineers) to achieve the goals of a corporation or politician regardless of the cost of human lives is such a broad spectrum concept that it can be applied to virtually any setting.

Instead we keep getting the Alien set up as the primary villain mostly an excuse for the prisoners/Space Pirates/Predators to shoot up the set and blow shit up.

 

[Exley97_v1legacy]

I always thought that it would strain credibility to take the first team of researchers to the first-ever extra-terrestrial archaeological site and put them in the first-ever contact with extra-terrestrial life in a setting that has paradigm-shifting implications for the whole of Earthly biological history not to mention human civilization and then expect them to contain their excitement and do things by the book.

I think a major problem with that was the lack of consistency among characters.While that biologist wasn't creeped out at all by a living, potentially dangerous alien, he was freaked out by... a skeleton. I'm sure you've seen a lot of science-nerds cream their pants over just the potential of water existing on Mars, which is itself just an idea that life may have been possible. A skeleton is would be absolute confirmation that alien life is not only possible, but happened. If an organization like NASA found a genuine fossil of plant life or a skeleton of a animal tomorrow on Mars, you wouldn't hear the end of it. Its not alive, sure, but its still an alien.

I don't despise Prometheus' existence like some people do, but I couldn't enjoy it because even while there was intriguing stuff under the hood, most of the people acted like idiots that its just, to me, inexcusable. I personally gave up when they started running away from the ship by running along the path it was moving. Not ripping on you for liking it, I just thought that the general stupidty of the characters outpaced its redeeming qualities.

How the hell did they not know something was INSIDE Kane?

There's actually a deleted scene that explains this.


Jump to 1:40.

Edit: Escapist doesn't want to display it, so here's the direct link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw2BhcXn9ac

Aliens (how in the holy f--k does Weyland-Yutani go back to LV-426 to set up Hadley's Hope and NOT hear the alien ship beacon? How are the colonists JUST discovering the ship years later?

Its implied that Wey-Yu set up shop there intentionally because of that beeacon, and that the reason for the colony there is to serve as a de facto base of operations for researching the alien vessel. After all, Wey-Yu wanted the alien captured alive in Alien, and they sent orders to the colonists to explore the ship, knowing full well about the Nostromo incident.

I've seen it. But the "stain on his lungs"....I mean, he's the worst flippin' science officer in the world if he can't figure out something is alive in there, and if it's true that Ash does know about it and is hiding it from the rest of the crew, then it goes back to the medical data within Mother, which Dallas has access to and either didn't read or read a flasified version of the data. Either way, the entire thing in retrospect is problematic.

As for Hadley's Hope, I know that has been implied, and it would certainly help explain a lot, but there's little canonical evidence to show that's actually true. First, recall that in the extended version, Newt's parents are the first members of the colony to find the ship, and there's no site of any WY personnel or research stations nearby. Second, Burke admits, when confronted by Ripley, that he ordered them to check out the ship -- well after the colony and atmosphere processor has already been built and populated. Why did Burke and the company wait until that point? And why stock Hadley's Hope with colonists and surveyers and salvage teams instead of, say, scienists and researchers? There's really nothing that would indicate that the company found the beacon first and THEN decided to build the colony and atmosphere processor, which if you recall has "a substantial dollar value attached to it."