The Angels Take Manhattan

[Tornix]

There is only so many times you can create a paradox. A minor paradox at that. So I didn't really have any problems with the notion of a second paradox might have dire consequences.

 

[ritchards]

Yeah complete mess of a plot. Why couldn't the Doctor go to 1940 or Boston or something and catch the Ponds that way?

And how are the Angels opening and closing all the doors? And is the image of the Statue of Liberty in the lift an Angel? [And I hope we aren't supposed to believe that it's the Baby Angel on screen that blows out the match, because that would be moving!]

Eh, I don't buy that he used up a whole regen just to heal her wrist. But even if he did, they're his to use.

If you recall Rise of the Cybermen, the Doctor gives some of this life to put into the TARDIS crystal to regenerate it, which is basically what is happening here. River doesn't want him to give up a part of his life for her.

To be picky (and why not?) the first time Amy met River was in The Time of Angels, but the first time River met Amy was in The Impossible Astronaut. Or maybe Let's Kill Hitler if you want Alex playing the role. Or maybe during Wedding of River Song if you want her more River-like. Time of Angels for River happens much later.

 

[tmande2nd]

Yeah...I just never really got into 11 and his companions.

See I LOVED Tennant because he could be charming and silly but dark and terrifying at the same time.

I mean Smith is good, but I cant ever take his anger seriously since he comes off like a child being mad. Where as Tennant can really show rage and anger and act like the master.

"The Waters of Mars" did what they are trying to show here much better. That the doctor loses focus without humans around him. That he starts seeing things as BENEATH him much like the Master does.

I dont hate 11, but I do prefer 10 a bit more.

 

[Susan Arendt]

I mean Smith is good, but I cant ever take his anger seriously since he comes off like a child being mad. Where as Tennant can really show rage and anger and act like the master.

"The Waters of Mars" did what they are trying to show here much better. That the doctor loses focus without humans around him. That he starts seeing things as BENEATH him much like the Master does.

Hmmm...as much as I love Smith, I have to agree with you on this point. Tennant does angry far better than Smith, but then Tennant gets too emo at the other end of the spectrum. Take Smith's happy and Tennant's mad, and I think you have the perfect characterization.

 

[gigastar]

Hey Susan whoever can be bothered to answer, what's your opinion on the mid season break?

Strictly Come Dancing is starting this week on the BBC and i guess the Director General (or whoever) doesnt want the two to clash.

Besides, its a convienient excuse to drop the mandatory christmas special in as a part of the series.

 

[gigastar]

Dr who and deus ex machina are best friends.

Going by that logic, then the Doctor's archnemesis is Diabolus Ex Machina [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DiabolusExMachina].

...Yeah, that works the more i think about it.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

I appear to have enjoyed it much more than you did Susan. Mind you, I'm in the mentality where I don't even question the logic of Doctor Who any more. It's not Star Trek. It's not supposed to even sound theoretically possible. It's just supposed to be having fun with these far off, nigh unknowable concepts such as time travel, and sometimes that's all that's necessary. After the most deep and touching episode of series 5 centered on the idea of all the UK being on a spaceship that rests on the back of an enormous, vacuum-breathing whale, all impetus to take the actual 'science' part of the science-fiction seriously left the show with a jovial tip of the hat, and I honestly think it made it better. I loved Russel T. Davies' writing on the whole, but it was always at its most cringe-worthy when it was trying too hard to make things sound even half plausible (the end of series 3 where the Doctor is 'un-aged' by everyone in the world just thinking his name... somehow, and it being played completely straight, springs to mind).

 

[Lectori Salutem]

snip

That's true, though the dead soldier talking over the radio for the angels was quite neat.
I just feel this episode didn't take the time to be scary (like I said, too much going on), instead focussing on the drama of Amy and Rory. The same goes pretty much for the mystery surrounding the book at the beginning of the episode. I thought it was really intriguing and made for a great setup, but they just sort of rushed through it.

 

[Crimson_Dragoon]

I personally love Amy and Rory, but I feel like their departure would have been a lot more meaningful if BBC wasn't shoving it in our faces every 5 minutes that they were leaving the show. Did we really need a commercial telling us that in the middle of damn episode where it happens?

 

[Guestyman]

The issue wasn't that he couldn't land in New York; the issue was that he'd read their tombstone. That means if he were to rescue them it would create a paradox in which he's seen that they die in the past and yet they don't die in the past. The paradox earlier in the episode to kill off the rest of the angels already weakened the fabric of reality in that spot and there's a line of dialogue there that "One more paradox would blow the city apart" or something like that.

The way I saw it was that he could go to 1930s New York if he wanted, but the fact that the Ponds live out the rest of their lives in the past is a fixed point that the Doctor can't change without either summoning those reaper things from Eccleston's season, or ending time like in the last season finale.

 

[wildpeaks]

The shift in the role of the companions could be explained in-universe by each incarnation having his own personality, and maybe this one just happens to need more caretaking than the others, either simply from age (btw when did he jump from 900 to 1200 years ? I must have forgotten about that) or simply centuries of fucking with the Universe and always losing everyone he cares about finally starts taking its toll.

Out-universe, that gives a good reason for him to return to Earth so often despite the rest of the Universe seems way more interesting and it gives more weight to the companions instead of being dead weights he carries around.

 

[wildpeaks]

I disliked most of it as the only thing I hate more than Amy and Rory is River Song but here is my biggest problem with it. The Doctor cannot go back to 193 whatever New York or he will blow up Now York right? Ok. Go to any other place in the USA. Then get on a train to NYC, find Amy and Rory, get on another train back to where you parked the Tardis and off you go. Problem solved.

You'll save yourself frustration if you accept some parts will just be illogical/they needed plot devices: the currents seasons are not one of those shows where you can build on the premises to guess the range of what might happen next or what options are available.

 

[KefkaCultist]

I'm pretty much a total Newvian. The only episodes I have seen are these last five and the two previous weeping angel episodes, so I definitely do not know as much about the series as many others.

I will say thought that I thought the statue of liberty being an angel was ridiculously stupid, but I forced my suspension of disbelief to allow it because I thought the rest of the episode was great.

And the end. Oh god, the end. I honestly don't think I've cried as hard since my brother left for the military when I was like 8... People may find Amy and Rory annoying I guess, but I love them from what I've seen so far.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I also wish it wasn't so damn televised that the ponds were leaving this episode. Like, if it had just been a total surprise, then it would've been even better. My heartstrings would've been more than just tugged on, but as it stands, I knew they were leaving this episode, so it wasnt as shocking.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

That was retconed out. Time Lords can regenerate an infinite number of times now.

Edit: Actually I think they made the limit 502 or something silly like that

From the Extended stuff I read, at the beginning of the Time War each Timelord had their number of regenerations reset. So Eccelston was 1, 12 to go. Though I think Tennant used up two in his run.

I wonder if we will still be stuck with River. Most likely.

Lady liberty is copper, but the Angels are stone.

 

[Shadowstar38]

btw when did he jump from 900 to 1200 years

In "The Impossible Astronaunt" the future version of the Doctor says he's 1100 or so, and Amy questions this since last time see saw him he was 980 something.

At the end of "God Complex" The Doctor leaves the 2 and goes to do stuff on his on. He must have been faffing about for a total of 100 years between the times he wasnt with the Ponds. I doubt the show will ever address it again though.

 

[TimeLord]

That was retconed out. Time Lords can regenerate an infinite number of times now.

Edit: Actually I think they made the limit 502 or something silly like that

From the Extended stuff I read, at the beginning of the Time War each Timelord had their number of regenerations reset. So Eccelston was 1, 12 to go. Though I think Tennant used up two in his run.

I wonder if we will still be stuck with River. Most likely.

Lady liberty is copper, but the Angels are stone.

No the limit was completely taken out of canon. Smith's Doctor was straight up asked how many times he can regenerate in a Sarah Jane Adventures episode and he responded by saying there was no limit. Sarah Jane Adventures series is considered canon and it was written by RTD.

 

[Chrono212]

Hey Susan whoever can be bothered to answer, what's your opinion on the mid season break?

Strictly Come Dancing is starting this week on the BBC and i guess the Director General (or whoever) doesnt want the two to clash.

Besides, its a convienient excuse to drop the mandatory christmas special in as a part of the series.

Oh, the season break was announced a couple of years ago.
Mainly because they wanted to shift DW into the autumn line up, not the summer dead zone.

No one watched the tv in June, July and August as no one is indoors or in the country.

There's a press release somewhere where Moffet talks about it.

 

[Vegan_Doodler]

I personally loved the episode, I am incredibly sad to see Amy and Rory go but they had a good run and a good send off.

As NinjaDeathSlap said, it's not a show your meant to analyse and apply anything as boring as logic to but the thing that bugs me about the episode is just further evidence of my big problem with Moffat writing, he seems to be incredibly possessive of the show and is unwilling to show any continuity with Russel T. Davies' run, I like the redesigns of the Tardis and screwdriver but was it necessary to redesign everything and put on blinkers to continuity?

My problem with the episode is that the doctor cant land in 1930 New York because of the time interference from the Angels right? So how did he get to 1930 New York in 'Daleks in Manhattan'? And if it is the Angels that are causing the time interference how did he land next to the statue of liberty?

Additionally I just might be a better Doctor than the Doctor because I have been thinking of better solutions to problems recently and this was the easiest. As we know from 'Fathers day' when there is a paradox those Reaper things fly out of know where and feed on time energy, kind of like that given off by the Angels.
1. Fly back in this save Amy and Rory.
2. Cause paradox thus releasing the Reapers.
3. Let the Reapers eat all the Angels, them being the biggest 'infection' for them to focus on.
4. With the angels gone 1930 New York will become stable again and the Reapers will become week enough to vanish or just have River shoot them in the face.
5. Ice-cream.
6. Profit!

See, it's not that hard being Timelord.

Despite the fact I managed to get three paragraphs out of that it was honestly a minor annoyance for me, I still love the episode and was constantly choked up over the last half. I know a lot of people hated them (for whatever reason) but I'm really guna miss the girl who waited and the last centurion.

[Edit]: I was just thinking about this a bit more and I realised, you can't rewrite time if you see the future happen, ok I can get behind that rule...

Oh...
This is the most slapdash approach to the rules of time travel ever, Moffat set the rules and then stick to them.

 

[Gizmo1990]

I disliked most of it as the only thing I hate more than Amy and Rory is River Song but here is my biggest problem with it. The Doctor cannot go back to 193 whatever New York or he will blow up Now York right? Ok. Go to any other place in the USA. Then get on a train to NYC, find Amy and Rory, get on another train back to where you parked the Tardis and off you go. Problem solved.

You'll save yourself frustration if you accept some parts will just be illogical/they needed plot devices: the currents seasons are not one of those shows where you can build on the premises to guess the range of what might happen next or what options are available.

I understand that and I have ignored many plot holes over the years, I started watching with the first Eccelston episode, its just that this one is such a BIG plot hole with such an easy solution.