The Angels Take Manhattan
- Thread starter Susan Arendt
- Start date
Personally; didn't rate the episode at all. I didn't think Amy and Rory's send off was "heartbreaking" at all, and this is coming from a guy who loved Amy and Rory, and who thought The Doctor saying goodbye to Idris (a.k.a The human form of the TARDIS) was insanely sad.
My biggest issue was the tone of the show, it couldn't decide whether it was going for full on Angel creep out, (which could of worked because the idea of an Angel Death Camp is terrifying)or whether it was focusing on Amy and Rory leaving. Because it had to split it's attention between 2 great ideas, both ideas came across as half arsed.
Incidentally the few bits of the episode I really enjoyed were the River and Doctor married life moments. The cutesy banter when he arrives, the loving moment on the stair and the little tiff when she chastises him for regenerating her hand. Those were perfect.
Still, looking forward to the Christmas episode and how The Doctor will be rescuing soufflé girl from being trapped inside a Dalek body.
My biggest issue was the tone of the show, it couldn't decide whether it was going for full on Angel creep out, (which could of worked because the idea of an Angel Death Camp is terrifying)or whether it was focusing on Amy and Rory leaving. Because it had to split it's attention between 2 great ideas, both ideas came across as half arsed.
Incidentally the few bits of the episode I really enjoyed were the River and Doctor married life moments. The cutesy banter when he arrives, the loving moment on the stair and the little tiff when she chastises him for regenerating her hand. Those were perfect.
Still, looking forward to the Christmas episode and how The Doctor will be rescuing soufflé girl from being trapped inside a Dalek body.
This summer there was the European cup, the Olympics and Paraolympics. Any series is going to try dodge that lot. Who (ok its a bad pun)in there right mind wants to go up against Jess Ennis, Sir Chris Hoy or David Weir going for gold.Chrono212 said:
Old!Amy was only actually about a day older than Young!Amy, remember the Two Streams was set up for the person to experience a lifetime of life in 24 hours, due to that plague.Vegan_Doodler said:[Edit]: I was just thinking about this a bit more and I realised, you can't rewrite time if you see the future happen, ok I can get behind that rule...
Oh...
This is the most slapdash approach to the rules of time travel ever, Moffat set the rules and then stick to them.
I imagine if you're over a millennia old and seen so much death and destruction and experience heart ache, you'd go a little insane. The Doctor does need some sort of moral compass. Incidentally a human companion which the audience can relate to.
I hope the next companion isn't interested in the Doctor what so ever.
I did find that the Doctor did nothing that episode. It was all the Ponds...
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One more obvious plot hole. River is able to get Amy to publish a book in the past. Yet wibbly wobbly.
Amy dies 5 years later than Rory which means Amy has 5 years of grief hell.
If Amy and Rory get sent back in time, they will appear to be similarly aged in that era.
What do the angels do to the bodies after they expired? Chuck them out into the street. Would the only way people would know who they were by their possessions? ID cards and advanced technology such as Mobile Phones...
I hope the next companion isn't interested in the Doctor what so ever.
I did find that the Doctor did nothing that episode. It was all the Ponds...
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One more obvious plot hole. River is able to get Amy to publish a book in the past. Yet wibbly wobbly.
Amy dies 5 years later than Rory which means Amy has 5 years of grief hell.
If Amy and Rory get sent back in time, they will appear to be similarly aged in that era.
What do the angels do to the bodies after they expired? Chuck them out into the street. Would the only way people would know who they were by their possessions? ID cards and advanced technology such as Mobile Phones...
True but she wasn't only a day older she was in fact thirty-six years older because her stream was moving quicker then the one the Doctor and Rory started in. Also it was in fact Amy's future because it was the same time stream, the Doctor and Rory had just arrived too late.Olrod said:Old!Amy was only actually about a day older than Young!Amy, remember the Two Streams was set up for the person to experience a lifetime of life in 24 hours, due to that plague.Vegan_Doodler said:[Edit]: I was just thinking about this a bit more and I realised, you can't rewrite time if you see the future happen, ok I can get behind that rule...
Oh...
This is the most slapdash approach to the rules of time travel ever, Moffat set the rules and then stick to them.
If anything else this new rule negates any and all threat the Doctor has ever and will ever face because he already knows the Daleks didn't take over the earth in WW2 so there's no chance n them winning anyway.
[Edit]:
I wasn't aware that he had unlimited regenerations now, I thought he was joking in SJA. That's kind off disappointing I was looking forward to the 13th Doctor trying to find a way of staying alive or giving himself more regenerations.TimeLord said:
I've said this before but the Weeping Angels should have remained a one off. Each time they are trotted out they have previously established lore messed with and they lose impact.
Blink was brilliant, each subsequent angel episode has been increasingly worse (hopefully) culminating in this episode's monstrosity.
Internal consistency has pretty much been obliterated since Moffat took over. I know things got changed in the past but you can't even rely on something said in the same series being true a couple of episodes later now.
Blink was brilliant, each subsequent angel episode has been increasingly worse (hopefully) culminating in this episode's monstrosity.
Internal consistency has pretty much been obliterated since Moffat took over. I know things got changed in the past but you can't even rely on something said in the same series being true a couple of episodes later now.
Doctor Who's always been a bit lose with the rules for time travel (timey-wimey anyone?) but I think the idea was that you can't change your own future if you see it happen, so the Doctor can't go and interfere with Rory and Amy's deaths as he knows when it happens, though anyone other time traveller could interfere with it who didn't know about it. At the very least, trying to interfere with such things puts a big strain on the timeline, which is something best avoided, as can been seen what happens when you try and change a fixed point in time, and New York's local timeline already taken a pounding with the Angels dropping people across their own timeline repeatedly.Vegan_Doodler said:
The above example I think uses the excuse that Amy's concurrently existing in two different timelines, so it's not part of the same one and therefore an avoidable fate.
Of course, timey-wimey, it is what it is to suit things, though the "reading one's own future fixes it" does explain the whole "spoilers" thing between the Doctor and River, especially the first time he meets her and has her entire diary afterwards, and simply leaves it on a balcony because: "spoilers".
Although the effect of Amy and Rory's departure was softened by knowing it beforehand, I never quite expected them to leave quite so definitely as they did. I was more prepared for them just saying they've had enough and want to be left alone or something, so they're still "around", but instead they're completely gone.
Who will we kill endlessly now?
I wonder how that is supposed to mesh with River transferring her remaining regenerations in to Smith. Since it's unlimited would it have killed her outright, or only being a partial, she had a set number?TimeLord said:
I'm more and more considering to just ignore Moffat episodes canon-wise.
There are often very many plot and loreholes ... Retconning stuff that was good to create something mediocre ... And very often events that block certain events from happening (i.e. Doctor regeneration limit, no going back to thirtysomething NY, all this shizzle) ... Then the whole River Song plotstring, which just makes no sense whatsoever ...
It's not the existence of these holes that annoys me ... It's how massive, obvious and constantly appearing they are.
There are often very many plot and loreholes ... Retconning stuff that was good to create something mediocre ... And very often events that block certain events from happening (i.e. Doctor regeneration limit, no going back to thirtysomething NY, all this shizzle) ... Then the whole River Song plotstring, which just makes no sense whatsoever ...
It's not the existence of these holes that annoys me ... It's how massive, obvious and constantly appearing they are.
Susan, your (new?) avatar is amazing. Even just remembering this episode was making me a bit angry, then I saw that corgi and my heart lifted. So... thanks. Also, "hwa?" pleased me immensely. I can't look at that without hearing Professor Farnsworth.
If only Moffat could be forced to read TvTropes (the second-best website on the internet, after escapistmagazine.com) and the entry for conservation of ninjutsu. Or just if he could understand the general concept explained in the first line of that entry: "In any martial arts fight, there is only a finite amount of ninjutsu available to each side in a given encounter. As a result, one Ninja is a deadly threat, but an army of them are cannon fodder."
4 angels were SCARY AS HELL. Blink was the first Doctor Who episode I'd ever seen as an adult and it is why I ever watched any more episodes. When you make hundreds, thousands, or millions of angels, they just become the embodiment of tedium (why is it that four angels will intelligently/efficiently hunt someone, but 100+ don't have the common sense to secure a single building that is necessary for their existence? Or 1000+ will just allow fresh, young meat to roam freely among them for hours before making a single move?).
This may be kind of dark, but why couldn't Rory had just been wrong? He and Amy jumping was actually a sad moment, to me (maybe just because it's cheap manipulation of anyone who loves his/her spouse), but any sadness was immediately undercut by "Nah, just kidding--they're both fine." Let them jump, but make them have to actually pay a price for their choice and creating a paradox; hit the ground and stay dead. The Doctor could have even gotten a chance to be in an episode, again, and maybe have some kind of (at least minor) character development after something like that. Oh well.
If only Moffat could be forced to read TvTropes (the second-best website on the internet, after escapistmagazine.com
) and the entry for conservation of ninjutsu. Or just if he could understand the general concept explained in the first line of that entry: "In any martial arts fight, there is only a finite amount of ninjutsu available to each side in a given encounter. As a result, one Ninja is a deadly threat, but an army of them are cannon fodder."4 angels were SCARY AS HELL. Blink was the first Doctor Who episode I'd ever seen as an adult and it is why I ever watched any more episodes. When you make hundreds, thousands, or millions of angels, they just become the embodiment of tedium (why is it that four angels will intelligently/efficiently hunt someone, but 100+ don't have the common sense to secure a single building that is necessary for their existence? Or 1000+ will just allow fresh, young meat to roam freely among them for hours before making a single move?).
This may be kind of dark, but why couldn't Rory had just been wrong? He and Amy jumping was actually a sad moment, to me (maybe just because it's cheap manipulation of anyone who loves his/her spouse), but any sadness was immediately undercut by "Nah, just kidding--they're both fine." Let them jump, but make them have to actually pay a price for their choice and creating a paradox; hit the ground and stay dead. The Doctor could have even gotten a chance to be in an episode, again, and maybe have some kind of (at least minor) character development after something like that. Oh well.
I feel like worrying about if/how other canon fits with River is kind of like worrying about your toe after you stub it on a huge brick of solid gold you just found--River can die (and stay dead, thank God), let's just all be happy for that.008Zulu said:
This episode was in 1938 (iirc) so he got there before everything got messed up so that's one way of explaining it.Vegan_Doodler said:
Or you can say it never happened because of the 'universe reset' (which I hate because it's just lazy)
Remember, she's still alive inside the library computer. So while we won't have her come back to life fully the doctor can always go and see her in cyberspace, or we get a riverbot to tag along so we'll likely not be shot of her until Alex gets bored.bravetoaster said:
Two words stick the forefront of my mind when I think of this episode: Inconsistent and Unnecessary.
First, I know, the laws of time and space in Doctor Who tend to fluctuate frequently but they should at least make sense within their own episode. Most of these have already been mentioned, the Statue of Liberty Angel, the Never Can Get Back to New York 1938 plot hole, etc. There's a point where suspension of disbelief just doesn't cover it any more and this episode passed it.
And all that being said, this episode just wasn't necessary. You want to have Amy and Rory leave? Fine, then just have them leave! I don't understand why every departure has to be some sort of tragedy and frankly it's getting a little tiring. In the classic series plenty of companions simply to chose to stay behind. Besides they were already building it throughout with Amy and Rory making lives for themselves. Give them one last hurrah and then then let them depart to settle down; no angst, no drama, just a fond farewell.
First, I know, the laws of time and space in Doctor Who tend to fluctuate frequently but they should at least make sense within their own episode. Most of these have already been mentioned, the Statue of Liberty Angel, the Never Can Get Back to New York 1938 plot hole, etc. There's a point where suspension of disbelief just doesn't cover it any more and this episode passed it.
And all that being said, this episode just wasn't necessary. You want to have Amy and Rory leave? Fine, then just have them leave! I don't understand why every departure has to be some sort of tragedy and frankly it's getting a little tiring. In the classic series plenty of companions simply to chose to stay behind. Besides they were already building it throughout with Amy and Rory making lives for themselves. Give them one last hurrah and then then let them depart to settle down; no angst, no drama, just a fond farewell.
I feel I may have the answer to some of Susan's questions.
For starters, I'm prettty sure Rory got sent to 1938 by the baby angel that followed him when he went for coffee.
Why 1938?
It was probably aiming to send him to the apartment building.
As for Rory and River being hauled off to the crime boss guy? That was probably part of River's plan, along with posing as a private eye.
What plan?
She probably sniffed out something timey wimey going on near the crime boss and she was hoping to get in touch that way. After all, his last private eye vanished.
So why did the crime boss guy kidnap River instead of just giving her a call?
Because crime bosses don't make appointments, they send goons!
So why kidnap Rory as well?
Because he was with River and they couldn't leave a witness. Hence why they locked him up with the babies as soon as they got to the bosses' mansion.
But why did the crime boss want a private eye in the first place?
Because he found out about the angels and wanted to know more, a quirk that comes with the job.
So than how did River find out about the crime boss and his angel-related activity?
She's River, finding out about these things and getting involved is simply what she does all day. Much like the doctor.
So how did she get to 1938?
Vortex manipulator.
Where'd she get that?
She's River, she's resourceful.
But why was she exactly where Rory would pop up?
Could be a coincidence, could be she knew where he was going to pop (again: she's River, she's good at these things), and it could even be because she acted as some kind of timey wimey beacon because she herself is a time traveller. That last option would also explain why Rory wasn't sent straight to the apartment building.
So yeah, the reasons are all there (or at least it's possible to come up with some that make sense) but they sure could have done a better job explaining them. And that's coming from a guy who actually likes it when they don't waste time explaining little things.
For starters, I'm prettty sure Rory got sent to 1938 by the baby angel that followed him when he went for coffee.
Why 1938?
It was probably aiming to send him to the apartment building.
As for Rory and River being hauled off to the crime boss guy? That was probably part of River's plan, along with posing as a private eye.
What plan?
She probably sniffed out something timey wimey going on near the crime boss and she was hoping to get in touch that way. After all, his last private eye vanished.
So why did the crime boss guy kidnap River instead of just giving her a call?
Because crime bosses don't make appointments, they send goons!
So why kidnap Rory as well?
Because he was with River and they couldn't leave a witness. Hence why they locked him up with the babies as soon as they got to the bosses' mansion.
But why did the crime boss want a private eye in the first place?
Because he found out about the angels and wanted to know more, a quirk that comes with the job.
So than how did River find out about the crime boss and his angel-related activity?
She's River, finding out about these things and getting involved is simply what she does all day. Much like the doctor.
So how did she get to 1938?
Vortex manipulator.
Where'd she get that?
She's River, she's resourceful.
But why was she exactly where Rory would pop up?
Could be a coincidence, could be she knew where he was going to pop (again: she's River, she's good at these things), and it could even be because she acted as some kind of timey wimey beacon because she herself is a time traveller. That last option would also explain why Rory wasn't sent straight to the apartment building.
So yeah, the reasons are all there (or at least it's possible to come up with some that make sense) but they sure could have done a better job explaining them. And that's coming from a guy who actually likes it when they don't waste time explaining little things.
Perzactly, I was thinking that too.Gizmo1990 said:
Though, what really bugged me was that the random 30's gangster who was locking up Weeping Angels for no reason was able to do so, and then had found a way to hurt them.
In all the previous stories, they were invincible, even to the technology of the far future, but this guy could do it somehow...and then nobody wondered how he'd done it. I would have thought that information would have been sorta important.
(TBH, though, being made of stone never seemed that great defense to me anyway, look up youtube penetration tests of various bullets against various materials and you'll see what I mean, and if that doesn't work, close your eyes when you pull the trigger, or glue the monsters to the floor or wear clothes made out of mirrors or...)
I think that should be more props to Smith for his acting skills really, as his Doctor /is/ very childlike, he's very whimsical and sort of..."yipee", so I think the way he displays his emotions and anger fit his character extremely well. Of course that's a bit juxtaposed with his growing underlying bitterness, but then that's an extension of part of of his character as all 11 incarnations, rather than just Smith for me.tmande2nd said:
I mean Tennants anger was truly of the Great and Terrible wrath of God variety, shown like you say, very nicely in Waters of Mars, but also when Donna joins the Tardis and they fight the Racknos, as well as in "Turn Left", how he still needs someone with him to keep him in check.
I mean Tennants my favourite too, but I still think Smiths a great Doctor, and is perhaps let down more by sloppy writing, which can't be helped by him. Plus Tennant was a classically trained Shakespearian actor, so even with sloppy writing, his mere presence was enough to carry the episodes.
I would've also loved to have seen more Ecclestone episodes actually, I re watched the whole of Nu Who recently, and he has a really unique spin on the Doctor. Granted we'd have to put up with the bloody Tylers again, and I'm not sure I'm ready for that.