Did you even read that list?NameIsRobertPaulson said:3 in 4 decks in the Top 8 of Legacy tournaments this year have been combo. That's a higher percentage than the Caw-Blade decks when Jace the Skull Fucker dominated standard, and that card got banned as a result. The only non-combo deck to place regularly has been Canadian Threshold.SL33TBL1ND said:And it isn't, unless you're playing Eternal formats. Also, this may be kinda rude, jumping in like this, but with regards to your discussion about Legacy with the other guy, Legacy is really diverse.NameIsRobertPaulson said:The point was that mana-fixing shouldn't be expensive. Rosewater has said as such, because of how necessary it is to gameplay.SL33TBL1ND said:Yeah, and by extension, Shocklands aren't expensive.NameIsRobertPaulson said:Wasteland was printed way back in the day. Of course its price is high, because of the rarity of the card.SL33TBL1ND said:That's actually pretty cheap as far as staple lands go. Try and get your hands on some Wastelands or Duals for that much.NameIsRobertPaulson said:Except when something is that important, a single re-print barely changes the price.deth2munkies said:The reason why they're $20 is because they've been out of print for so long. Print them again, the price goes down. That's a VERY GOOD THING for people that want to get into Modern especially. Not to mention that you get more of them as you draft/buy packs.NameIsRobertPaulson said:I really hope the shocks don't come back, and they make an alternative like "Land - Plains Swamp Taps for W or B, comes into play tapped."deth2munkies said:As far as top constructed cards in the set, I'd generally hold off evaluation until R2R comes out because a lot of stuff (Liliana, Mutilate, the dual color common creatures) gets insanely better with shocklands.
By bringing back $20 lands, they widen the standard gap between players with money and players without. Mana fixing should never be expensive, because of how essential it is to the game. You don't need a Planeswalker or Titan to win, you need mana of the appropriate colors.
If they bring back the current Ravnica shock lands, I'm not playing standard till Ravnica 2 rotates. Sorry, I'd rather not spend $80 on lands.
Look at the M10 lands (Dragonskull Summit, Glacial Fortress, etc.) they're $2 a piece (or so) now and they were $20 when they came out.
Supply and demand, thought it'd be obvious.
Example 1: Primeval Titan. First print stabilized at $30, second at $25, currently at $15 after a THIRD printing.
Example 2: Solemn. First print was $20, second one stayed at $15 until recently.
I expect the prices to go down by $5 at most. That's still $15 per land.
Have a look at all of this year's winners for SCG comps. [http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?t%5BT2%5D=3&deck_name%5B%5D=&event_ID=&feedin=&start_date=2012-01-01&end_date=2012-07-15&city=&state=&country=&start=1&finish=1&exp=&p_first=&p_last=&simple_card_name%5B1%5D=&simple_card_name%5B2%5D=&simple_card_name%5B3%5D=&simple_card_name%5B4%5D=&simple_card_name%5B5%5D=&w_perc=0&g_perc=0&r_perc=0&b_perc=0&u_perc=0&a_perc=0&comparison%5B1%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B1%5D=1&card_name%5B1%5D=&comparison%5B2%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B2%5D=1&card_name%5B2%5D=&comparison%5B3%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B3%5D=1&card_name%5B3%5D=&comparison%5B4%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B4%5D=1&card_name%5B4%5D=&comparison%5B5%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B5%5D=1&card_name%5B5%5D=&sb_comparison%5B1%5D=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty%5B1%5D=1&sb_card_name%5B1%5D=&sb_comparison%5B2%5D=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty%5B2%5D=1&sb_card_name%5B2%5D=&card_not%5B1%5D=&card_not%5B2%5D=&card_not%5B3%5D=&card_not%5B4%5D=&card_not%5B5%5D=&order_1=finish&order_2=&limit=25&action=Show+Decks]
They're definitely not dominated by combo decks because of the checks and balances of the formats. There's Force of Will, all of the best removal cards ever printed and tonnes of great hate cards like Tormod's Crypt and Gaddock Teeg. Dredge may win almost every pre-sideboard game it plays, but from there its win ratio goes way down.
If memory serves, Scars will be legal until October/November, when RtR comes out, just like the set before Scars was legal until Innistrad. Wizards tneds to keeps 2 "themed" blocks in Standard at all times, otherwise the card pool after the Magic 20XX release would be ridiculously shallow.Souplex said:@Encaen: Your criminal hatred of artifacts has been cemented by this article.
The worst of 2013 was that it brought few worthwhile artifacts to the table while taking the Scars block out of standard.
Ok, I set the search to look at the top eight. Out of the first 100 decks I read, about 55 or so were not combo decks, these were all placed 1st-3rd. There's another 195 decks to go through, but I think that's a pretty good indication.NameIsRobertPaulson said:Those are just the #1 finishers. Check the rest of the Top 8. Delver became such a huge hit because it's easy aggression while keeping counters up, something badly needed because of the combo decks. It was extreme compensation.SL33TBL1ND said:Did you even read that list?NameIsRobertPaulson said:3 in 4 decks in the Top 8 of Legacy tournaments this year have been combo. That's a higher percentage than the Caw-Blade decks when Jace the Skull Fucker dominated standard, and that card got banned as a result. The only non-combo deck to place regularly has been Canadian Threshold.SL33TBL1ND said:And it isn't, unless you're playing Eternal formats. Also, this may be kinda rude, jumping in like this, but with regards to your discussion about Legacy with the other guy, Legacy is really diverse.NameIsRobertPaulson said:The point was that mana-fixing shouldn't be expensive. Rosewater has said as such, because of how necessary it is to gameplay.SL33TBL1ND said:Yeah, and by extension, Shocklands aren't expensive.NameIsRobertPaulson said:Wasteland was printed way back in the day. Of course its price is high, because of the rarity of the card.SL33TBL1ND said:That's actually pretty cheap as far as staple lands go. Try and get your hands on some Wastelands or Duals for that much.NameIsRobertPaulson said:Except when something is that important, a single re-print barely changes the price.deth2munkies said:The reason why they're $20 is because they've been out of print for so long. Print them again, the price goes down. That's a VERY GOOD THING for people that want to get into Modern especially. Not to mention that you get more of them as you draft/buy packs.NameIsRobertPaulson said:I really hope the shocks don't come back, and they make an alternative like "Land - Plains Swamp Taps for W or B, comes into play tapped."deth2munkies said:As far as top constructed cards in the set, I'd generally hold off evaluation until R2R comes out because a lot of stuff (Liliana, Mutilate, the dual color common creatures) gets insanely better with shocklands.
By bringing back $20 lands, they widen the standard gap between players with money and players without. Mana fixing should never be expensive, because of how essential it is to the game. You don't need a Planeswalker or Titan to win, you need mana of the appropriate colors.
If they bring back the current Ravnica shock lands, I'm not playing standard till Ravnica 2 rotates. Sorry, I'd rather not spend $80 on lands.
Look at the M10 lands (Dragonskull Summit, Glacial Fortress, etc.) they're $2 a piece (or so) now and they were $20 when they came out.
Supply and demand, thought it'd be obvious.
Example 1: Primeval Titan. First print stabilized at $30, second at $25, currently at $15 after a THIRD printing.
Example 2: Solemn. First print was $20, second one stayed at $15 until recently.
I expect the prices to go down by $5 at most. That's still $15 per land.
Have a look at all of this year's winners for SCG comps. [http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?t%5BT2%5D=3&deck_name%5B%5D=&event_ID=&feedin=&start_date=2012-01-01&end_date=2012-07-15&city=&state=&country=&start=1&finish=1&exp=&p_first=&p_last=&simple_card_name%5B1%5D=&simple_card_name%5B2%5D=&simple_card_name%5B3%5D=&simple_card_name%5B4%5D=&simple_card_name%5B5%5D=&w_perc=0&g_perc=0&r_perc=0&b_perc=0&u_perc=0&a_perc=0&comparison%5B1%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B1%5D=1&card_name%5B1%5D=&comparison%5B2%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B2%5D=1&card_name%5B2%5D=&comparison%5B3%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B3%5D=1&card_name%5B3%5D=&comparison%5B4%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B4%5D=1&card_name%5B4%5D=&comparison%5B5%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B5%5D=1&card_name%5B5%5D=&sb_comparison%5B1%5D=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty%5B1%5D=1&sb_card_name%5B1%5D=&sb_comparison%5B2%5D=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty%5B2%5D=1&sb_card_name%5B2%5D=&card_not%5B1%5D=&card_not%5B2%5D=&card_not%5B3%5D=&card_not%5B4%5D=&card_not%5B5%5D=&order_1=finish&order_2=&limit=25&action=Show+Decks]
They're definitely not dominated by combo decks because of the checks and balances of the formats. There's Force of Will, all of the best removal cards ever printed and tonnes of great hate cards like Tormod's Crypt and Gaddock Teeg. Dredge may win almost every pre-sideboard game it plays, but from there its win ratio goes way down.
Stoneblade
Rock
Aggro Loam
Junk
Maverick
Dredge
RUG Delver
Elves
Sneak and Show
RUG Delver
Sneak and Show
Reanimator
RUG Delver
Goblins
Stoneblade
Lands
Merfolk
RUG Delver
RUG Delver
UR Delver
Punishing Maverick
Burn
Burn
Dredge
UR Delver
Welder MUD
Punishing Maverick
UR Delver
Aggro Loam
Stoneblade
Blouses
Storm
Punishing Maverick
RUG Delver
RUG Delver
NO Bant
UW Control
That's all 38 comp winning decks from this year's SCG tournaments, only 12 of which are combo decks (Storm, Stoneblade, Welder, Dredge, Reanimator, Sneak and Show, Lands and Elves). What the hell are you talking about? Legacy has been really diverse lately. Legacy pro-players have been talking about how good the format is for a while now. Just yesterday Drew Levin put up this [http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/24462-M13-Overview-And-The-State-Of-Legacy.html] article. If you don't have a sub to SCG, that's fine, his evaluation of the format is in the free section of the article.
You do raise several good points with that, but if you're playing the Specter, you're probably playing a control based deck. Between[mtg_card=Tragic Slip], [mtg_card=Murder], [mtg_card=crippling blight], and [mtg_card=Death Wind] most of those creatures shouldn't be a problem.deth2munkies said:If you do that, you're forced into Black/Green, which isn't a good combination by itself, it needs a 3rd color (conventionally, Red) to stick together. Then you run into mana base problems.vxicepickxv said:I can see why you're not a fan, but black did get a very good card against most of those. You're already playing heavy black, so except for the Aristocrat, you have murder. For him, tragic slip. If you also run green, Rancor will help you kill them without card loss.deth2munkies said:Shimian Specter is a 2/2 flier for 4 that comes out after/same time as and doesn't get past the following:
Flipped Delver
Lingering Souls tokens
Midnight Haunting tokens
Fettergeist
Talrand's Invocation tokens
Dungeon Geists
Falkenrath Aristocrat
Olivia Voldaren
And the HUGE one: Restoration Angel
And that's just stuff that's actually played in Standard. There's a ton of other, looser cards (though I'm stretching it with Fettergeist, I really want him to be good) that block him too. Not to mention he does nothing for 4 mana when he comes into play AND you have to be playing decently heavy black.
He also dies to all the flying hate that people side against Delver (Corrosive Gale, Crushing Vines, Plummet, etc).
Not a fan.
At my prerelease, the combination of Courtly Provocateur and Liliana's Shade made a functional Death Wind every turn, which I was very happy to exploit. Opened 3 mediocre white rares and no playable commons/uncommons so ended up running a no rare deck that had no chance against bombs like Sublime Archangel and planeswalkers unless I drew really well (and I didn't).
As far as top constructed cards in the set, I'd generally hold off evaluation until R2R comes out because a lot of stuff (Liliana, Mutilate, the dual color common creatures) gets insanely better with shocklands.
Plus, the upside of cramming 4 Specters and 4 Rancors into a deck vs cards that are good on their own (read: not Specter) just isn't good enough. Sure, you get to see their hand and MAYBE get a decent card out of it, but here's the deal: an aggressive deck is beating you down hard enough on board that playing a 2/2 you aren't blocking with on T4 means you're going dangerously low on top of the fact that they've already played out enough threats that maybe getting rid of one in the hand does nothing, and a control deck has 50 different ways to kill or block your specter. So if you get the nut draw Specter into Rancor + Murder against a control deck that didn't draw removal and doesn't draw removal off of its draw spells in response, didn't counter the specter or the murder, doesn't flash in Restoration Angel, and now has less than 4 toughness worth of flying in play...sure, I guess it's pretty sweet.
You're better off just playing Memoricide, it's the same mana and does the same damn thing without requiring you to actually get in with an overcosted, tiny flier.
GP Atlanta Was won by a RUG list, Aggro/Control, and only had 2 combo decks in the top 8.NameIsRobertPaulson said:Looked up the results for legacy tournaments this year.
Winners:
GP Atlanta: Elf Combo
StarCity 6/24: Land Combo
StarCity 6/10: Reanimator
StarCity 6/3: ForgeMaster OTK
StarCity 5/27: Sneak and Tell
Legacy Bronze Tournament: Sneak and Tell
I would love to see a link showing that actual percentages here because I for the life of me cannot find any percents on tcgplayer. And according to MTGTop8 a website that is nothing but top lists and standings combo has only made up 27% of the meta in the last year and 24% of the meta game since the format was created.NameIsRobertPaulson said:tcgplayer.com, same people who help run the Star City Games Opens, the largest non-GP and non-Qualifier level tournaments.fanklok said:GP Atlanta Was won by a RUG list, Aggro/Control, and only had 2 combo decks in the top 8.NameIsRobertPaulson said:Looked up the results for legacy tournaments this year.
Winners:
GP Atlanta: Elf Combo
StarCity 6/24: Land Combo
StarCity 6/10: Reanimator
StarCity 6/3: ForgeMaster OTK
StarCity 5/27: Sneak and Tell
Legacy Bronze Tournament: Sneak and Tell
That Land "Combo" deck is actually a control deck, you lock the board down with Ensnaring Bridge by dumping your hand with Manabond and use Life from the Loam so your Creeping Tarpits can attack.
Reanimator was one of 3 combo decks in that top eight.
MUD took second place, first place again going to RUG with the top eight being an even split between combo and not combo.
And again top 8 is split 50/50.
I have no clue what a Legacy Bronze Tournament is and google thinks I should be buying bronze statues.
I'd really like to know where you got this info and why you think that only the deck that finished in first defines the entire meta game.
And it wasn't just the Top Decks. As someone above was kind enough to find for me, Of the most recent Top 8's in the last 200 tournaments in Legacy, almost 46% of them were combo. According to tcgplayer, 72% of the overall Top 8 finishes of the last calender year were combo. When almost half of your Top 8 is combo, it's fair to say it's a LARGE section of the meta.