The best leaders of your country

[Amaror]

As to the whole Hitler debate, the dude bastard was utterly incompetent but he had the luck of the devil. Best leader I can think of for Germany would probably be Bismarck, THE Magnificent Bastard.

I wanted to say Bismarck too, but he wasn't de facto a leader.

 

[MasterOfHisOwnDomain]

I don't think that you should defend somebody's actions just because they were justifiable by the standards of the people living then, it's like defending witch purges because people were sure they were sent by Satan, or slavery because black people were considered less than whites. He committed atrocities on innocent people because of racism, pure and simple.

Exactly who from history wouldn't be condemned if we held them to modern day standards? Almost every single person, to a man and woman, could be considered a racist, sexist, child abuser, animal abuser.

 

[Chairman Miaow]

I don't think that you should defend somebody's actions just because they were justifiable by the standards of the people living then, it's like defending witch purges because people were sure they were sent by Satan, or slavery because black people were considered less than whites. He committed atrocities on innocent people because of racism, pure and simple.

Exactly who from history wouldn't be condemned if we held them to modern day standards? Almost every single person, to a man and woman, could be considered a racist, sexist, child abuser, animal abuser.

That's not even an argument, it's a complete strawman. The zeitgeist of pre-WW2 Germany was that Germany should re-claim lost territory and that jews were to blame for there losses. Should we treat Hitler the way you are treating Cromwell? and who are these people from history we should be condemning that we don't? I certainly know that I condemn anybody who commits certain acts for the acts they commit, regardless of whether or not they were accepted then, based on my own morality. Caligula was a mad mass murderer, Henry VIII was a syphilitic despot, William the Conqueror was a warmongering bastard.

 

[Heinrich843]

Andrew "Old Hickory" Jackson

Yeah, he messed up a few times.(Indian removal and the destroying the Federal Reserve) But he almost beat to death the man that attempted to assassinate him and was an expert duelist and that's fucking awesome.

...his face was the last thing you saw before a brutal beating with a hickory cane...

Lol'd. Yeah, he was a trip.

OT:

Teddy Roosevelt

With the cooperation of a reform minded congress, he a very strong and capable leader.

He also had hilarious antics as the aforementioned Jackson, such as making his own party to run against that Taft for not following his directions.

 

[MasterOfHisOwnDomain]

Should we treat Hitler the way you are treating Cromwell?

No, because Hitler expanded far beyond the pre-existing trends the idea that, not only were Jews to blame for the German "defeat" in World War I, but that they should be exterminated in mass concentration camps - this notion was not swimming around German political circles before him.

Cromwell, as terrible as the consequences of his actions in Ireland were, has far, far less responsibility for those deaths. The policy that he enacted was not seen as anything other than essential to keep the Irish in check - everyone was complicit in the treatment of the Irish. Painting him as the "Big Bad", while it's an easy matter, masks the actions of a complex individual in a troubling time.

who are these people from history we should be condemning that we don't?

Plato and Pythagoras were sexists. Gandhi was racist in his early writings. Florence Nightingale was a chauvinist. et cetera.

 

[Chairman Miaow]

Should we treat Hitler the way you are treating Cromwell?

No, because Hitler expanded far beyond the pre-existing trends the idea that, not only were Jews to blame for the German "defeat" in World War I, but that they should be exterminated in mass concentration camps - this notion was not swimming around German political circles before him.

Cromwell, as terrible as the consequences of his actions in Ireland were, has far, far less responsibility for those deaths. The policy that he enacted was not seen as anything other than essential to keep the Irish in check - everyone was complicit in the treatment of the Irish. Painting him as the "Big Bad", while it's an easy matter, masks the actions of a complex individual in a troubling time.

who are these people from history we should be condemning that we don't?

Plato and Pythagoras were sexists. Gandhi was racist in his early writings. Florence Nightingale was a chauvinist. et cetera.

You're seriously comparing genocide to sexist or racist leanings? Fine, I think that they were idiots for believing what they did, but they also did amazing things. They are remembered for what they did, not for what they thought. I have no idea why you are willing to defend Cromwell and genocide, but I can't talk to you anymore.

 

[MasterOfHisOwnDomain]

Fine, I think that they were idiots for believing what they did, but they also did amazing things.

And there we have it. This is how I think of Cromwell. He did some terrible things, and sanctioned other terrible things - but, he also did amazing things.

[...] but I can't talk to you anymore.

Why? Thought we were having an impersonal debate about a historical figure. Didn't realise my defense of Cromwell was actually irritating you ...

 

[Chairman Miaow]

Fine, I think that they were idiots for believing what they did, but they also did amazing things.

And there we have it. This is how I think of Cromwell. He did some terrible things, and sanctioned other terrible things - but, he also did amazing things.

[...] but I can't talk to you anymore.

Why? Thought we were having an impersonal debate about a historical figure. Didn't realise my defense of Cromwell was actually irritating you ...

You're comparing Gandhi who led India to independence and inspired non-violent protest for civil rights and freedom movements across the world having racism in his early writings to Cromwell committing genocide! There is a big difference between THINKING all Irish people are horrible people and killing about a third of them and sending their children into slavery.

Don't get me wrong, this is very interesting and I am enjoying it, but I just find it frustratingly incomprehensible that you can defend him.