"The best" vs. "Having fun"

[Tohuvabohu]

This is something I see coming up time and time again across many different videogames.

There seems to be a very vocal, very critical, very condescending group of gamers out there who pride themselves in finding "the best" ways to play a game. That's fine, some people like doing that, I understand. But why do many (Not ALL) of these people have to be such pricks about it?

Spoiler: I'm not talking about a competitive multiplayer setting either.

This kind of behavior (Those who play to win vs. those who just want to have fun) Is commonplace in multiplayer and understandable in some ways. 2 different mindsets within the same game clash with each other (But then again, it's always the "winners" who rage at those who don't care about winning and want to have fun. I don't hear people saying "wtf team stop being so awesome and lets lose!!")

No no, I'm talking about single player games. and most commonly, RPG's. If you dare discuss any sort of difficulty or tactics for these games, you can bet there's going to be at least one asshole that barges into the conversation to toot his own horn.

Here are some examples:

Spoiler: Back when playing DA:O

I played with a very standard group setup. Tank, Healer, damage classes with myself as a rogue. I went into a thread to talk about DA:O encounters and I said something along the lines of:
"Gee guys, I'm sure having a lot of trouble with this boss fight. I tried several times last night before I gave up. It's a really hard fight."
Fuckwit: "LOL THAT FIGHT WAS EZ!!!! ur using shitty characters and ur level sucks!!! I did that fight on Nightmare on my first try LOL!! Restart the game as a mage and use all mage/arcane warriors, no need to use anything else. game is so EZ OMG WTF IS UR PROBLEM."

I didn't look up any kind of abusive tactics within DA:O so I didn't realize mages were so apparently overpowered, although it didn't necessarily surprise me. What did I do now that I came upon this realization? Nothing. I don't want to use all mages, and I don't want to cheese through the entire game.

More examples:

Spoiler: I was watching LP's of Legend Of Dragoon

not too long ago out of nostalgia, and then I decided to watch someone take on the final encounter of the game. For those of you who haven't played the game, the final boss is an increeeedibly long fight that goes on for more than half an hour under typical circumstances. This guy I was watching was using characters I didn't use, nor was he max leveled, but still managed to beat him. These are some comments I saw:

"wtf ur using kongol? LOL what a noob!"
"kongol sucks!!"
"i beat him in 3 minutes!!!"
"u don't have derp armor or herp sword? u suck!"
"best party to use is Dart, Albert, and Meru. ur party sucks."
"^meru and albert suck. best party to use is Dart, Haschel, and Miranda."
"^^Haschel sucks. best party to use is Dart, Albert, and Rose."
etc...

Yet while everyone was criticizing and berating this guy for not having the ultimate gear in the game, and not being max leveled, and not using "the best" party... He still killed final boss.

^You can take those same exact comments and apply it to a person playing X RPG, while using X Characters, with X Gear, and X level.

Personally, I enjoy a challenge in my games. I don't care for abusing game mechanics all that much, as they mostly tend to cheapen the experience and take away from the satisfaction of overcoming a challenge. Not only that, but sometimes I just want to advance the damned story.

I myself am guilty of attempting playthroughs with OP characters. Usually in RPG games such as Final Fantasy, especially. Where it's generally easy to overpower the hell out of yourself and abuse unbalanced mechanics to cheese through a lot of fights, mostly for self amusement or for the sake of completionism. But rarely do I actively seek this kind of playthrough, especially on my first attempts.

Is it not understandable that some people just don't want to grind their way to godly status? That some people just want to advance the narrative and not farm XP or ultimate equipment? This kind of thing transcends more than just RPG games too!

So escapists. How do you feel about playing a game "the best" way, versus playing a game to have fun? Can you think of other examples of this? Am I alone in my psychotic hatred of fuckwits who rub their best playthroughs in your face?

 

[Shymer]

I think it's just a base and ignoble form of normal human behaviour.

We all need to be right, to win, and be recognised for our worth - but different people demonstrate these behaviours at different intensities. I, for example, need to win and need to be right, but care less for recognition. This manifests in the way I play computer games. I care about optimising in games like Football Manager and Gratuitous Space Battles - but I'm not bothered about making sure everyone else knows how successful (or not) I've been. I am also interested in hearing about other people's methods.

I'm also fairly sure that these intensities change with age too. I'm older than most Escapists. Our skills at dealing and communicating with others, and curbing our own worst excesses improve with age.

The examples you mentioned speak to me of immature (not necessarily young) people looking for recognition for their correctness, desperately attempting to be identified as someone with l33t sk1lz by denegrating your lack of knowledge. It probably indicates low self-esteem and attention seeking behaviour.

When I read things like this - I can't help but think "Awww. Bless.", but that's my passive-aggressive side coming out - which just goes to show I'm not immune from being human.

 

[CrunchyRay]

I can empathize. The way many RPGs are built, they often provide the illusion of a wide range of options, but actually choosing anything but a particular build type makes the game vastly more difficult, if not impossible to beat. I think many of the people you identify believe that the "one true way" to beat an RPG must always be the easiest way.

Take Fallout 3 for example. If you want to build a fast-talking gunslinger who specializes in revolvers, you're going to have a lot of trouble. Nearly every time I've played the game I've wound up with one of two characters: a power-armored plasma rifle wielding kill machine, or a super-stealthy silent kill machine. And it's not for lack of trying; it's just that the game doesn't offer much of an advantage to characters with other specialties.

Oblivion is another game that seems designed for people to "game the game" as it were. Everybody knows about the leveling problem, so players quickly learned to deliberately make their character as low-level as possible while possessing high numbers in the skills they use. This strikes me as very problematic, almost as if it were designed to be counter to casual play. When you have to have your laptop open to the game's wiki site in order to play effectively, something is wrong.

The fundamental problem I think stems from the design of the games. When your only way to win is to kill, and if the most efficient way to kill is to play a particular build, then people will gravitate towards that build. And of those people who do so, there will be people who scream about how their way of playing is "the best". In the context of certain games, yes, mathematically there is often a "best" build, if you define "best" as "most efficiently able to negotiate the game's obstacles".

 

[Stall]

They're one in the same really. "The best way" is the most fun way to play for many people out there: some people can only have fun playing RPGs and such if they are meticulously min/maxing and constantly consulting a wiki to make the perfect character build. This is "having fun" for them. It just so happens that some people in this camp frown upon people who dare to play otherwise. It's not so much that they frown upon "fun," but they frown upon a lack of optimization, if you will.

Fun is a very ambiguous word. It can mean a lot of different things for a lot of different people. Turning your RPG into a "spreadsheet" might not be your idea of fun, but there are people out there who do get a sense of accomplishment from such micromanagement.

 

[Tohuvabohu]

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I won't argue against the people who choose to do that. (Like I said, not all of the people who choose to play through a game "the best" way are pricks to you if you dare to play differently.)

Some people speak of certain group compositions and character builds that allow you to play through an RPG game on it's highest difficulty/toughest boss fights while being virtually asleep.

I'm wondering how many people actively try to play a game in this manner, reading up on wikis and character builds, rather than just progressing the game based on their own knowledge?

Spoiler: The examples you mentioned speak to me of immature (not necessarily young) people looking for recognition for their correctness, desperately attempting to be identified as someone with l33t sk1lz by denegrating your lack of knowledge. It probably indicates low self-esteem and attention seeking behaviour.

I guess you're right. I probably won't be able to understand any kind of fundamental reason behind this type of showoffy behavior, other than the fact that some people need to be recognized for it.[/spoiler]

Oblivion is another good example of this. Once I became aware of it's... strange take on leveling and scaling. I still went along with it, questing and leveling as I normally would. I know I'm not the only person who does it this way. But it's pretty much the most ideal way for me, personally, to have fun. Rather than having to work against the game's own screwed up design, you know?

 

[Fishyash]

Although there is an objectively 'best way' to play an RPG usually (one that completely defies roleplaying anyways), it would be rather stupid to criticize other people for not wanting to play that way in a single player game. Multiplayer games? Makes perfect sense, if you are playing uncompetetively in a competetive environment the competetive players won't like it. Obviously if it bothers you then play with non-competetive people, but that does not apply in the slightest in single player games. How you play a single player game should in no way impede other people's experiences. Min/Maxing is totally fine, and in a multiplayer game it is recommended, especially in the more serious environments, and it's great for people to share their min/max info to others online to help people struggling with the game. However it's very unnecessary to chastise people who don't do so in a single player game (and to be honest, I think it's unnecessary to do the same vice versa as well.)

So... all in all, let people metagame, let people roleplay. It's only fair. There definately isn't a reason to insult someone's playstyle if it doesn't directly affect you.

Idiots are idiots though, and I am sure they belong in both categories.

Personally? In a single player environment, I do both. Multiplayer, I will be metagaming all day.

 

[Avaholic03]

I think the responsbility is on the developer of the game to make flexible ways to play. Inevitably there will always be a "best" way to play, but other ways should at least be possible even if they are less effective. It's sort of at the heart of the DE:HR boss fight controversy. The rest of the game did a great job allowing flexibility, but when players are forced to play a certain way just to get past a certain section of the game, then it's a failure on the part of the devleopers.

And as always, it's the internet, so there will always be an abundance of people who will tell you what you're doing wrong. You've got to take that with a grain of salt.

 

[Mouse_Crouse]

I myself am not a "Min/Max" player. But I know plenty of friends who are. I don't have a problem with that line of thought per se. But I can't imagine playing that way. I would much rather play the underused style just for kicks then the uber style that everyone and their grandmother uses because it's really powerful. This is just a personality thing IMO, I've seen this is everything I have done. Magic: The Gathering, World of Warcraft, any game can be min/maxxed and there will always be people who play that way.

 

[RandallJohn]

I personally try to find a balance. I just recently got into Team Fortress 2 (since it's now F2P) with the mindset of just wanting to have fun with it. However, knowing that the vocal minority would give me a hard time if I just walked in and started messing with the controls, I decided to drill bots first. That way, I'm having fun, and now when I do actually go online I'm decent enough to hold my own.

These kind of people really do ruin games for me, though. That's one of the reasons I quit WoW: I had too many people telling me I needed X rotation or Y sword or Z strategy. I appreciate a good rotation, set and strategy as much as the next guy, but where's the fun if you're just going to copy everything from someone else?

 

[Wintio]

I used to run into this a lot. I always played rpgs with a strategy guide next to me because I couldn't stand the thought that I wasn't doing it the "best" way, or that I might have just chosen the wrong dialogue option and now the uber mega sword was beyond my reach forever.

I recently realised this was a silly way to play (at least the first time, I can see the appeal of going back afterwards and critically analysing how everything went to optimise subsequent playthroughs, that's how we learn) and now my approach to rpgs is to just play it the way it feels right.

The only problem is I finally get why people are so angry about "moral choice" systems which only reward you if you go all one way or all the other. You should be able to make the choice that feels right (or wrong depending on how you're playing) without worrying about what future unrealistic limitations there will be.

TLDR: Play it the way you want the first time, ignore everyone else. Go back afterwards and learn from how others did it... you never know what may help.

 

[Weaver]

Character/party optimization existed in Dungeons and Dragons and it's going to exist in anything you can optimize.

We just have the internet now so everyone can culminate knowledge faster and be huge dick about not knowing optimal ways.

 

[bakan]

You can play RPG's like you want to play them, and as long as you don't do some sort of solorun or restrict yourself with other things, you can play through anything in any way.

But as soon as you start with 'self-made' challenges, like my solorun in Drakensang: River of Time (and actually doing the demon on highest difficulty alone ), you have to use specific builds and know more or less everything about the game.

I have fun with with both - playing normal and min/maxing.
And if someone asks for help and I can provide it I don't mind to help them out, as I also know people who aren't that good in games.

 

[Soviet Steve]

Some people's thrill in video games comes from the competitive aspect. I don't understand them and while they're welcome to fight amongst themselves over who can perform a meaningless task the quickest amongst themselves, I've got no patience for those types when they're imposing their views on the rest of us.

 

[Rawne1980]

In single player games I do whatever the hell I want. Other peoples opinions are meaningless to my enjoyment of a game.

Someone once told me the best weapons and armour to use in Fallout 3 so I showed him a clip of my character with a modded out Chinese Stealth suit and Devils Mistress "i'll blow off the head of a deathclaw with 1 shot" massive silver hand cannon.

He then shut up.

People play differently and while I have no doubt that there is a "best" way for one person to play that "best" way will be different for someone else.

As someone said above, in multiplayer games like MMO's there are the min/maxers, the roleplayers and those that don't give a crap and just want to do their own thing.

In MMO's I do read up a lot on my classes (well not so much anymore, i've been a healer for something like 10 years and there hasn't been many changes to the healing way of life) but I do read up what gear I should be going for and what tactics a boss has and what enchants/gems I should be using because it's my job to keep other people alive in that game and if my character isn't correctly equipped then I won't be able to do my job at my best.

But, as I said, for single player games I couldn't really give a shit about what anyone has to say about my play style. I get the job done and I have fun doing it.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Well, one of the big reasons I'm loving New Vegas right now is because it actually lets me say "Fuck it, I'm off to kill some bitches!" and I do just that. I couldn't care less about the main plot after Benny, but the sheer amount of stuff you can do and the number of approaches you can take was staggering for me, considering I've been mostly a Bioware RPG guy before now.

 

[SilverUchiha]

I think this need to be "the best" is a tad silly. In my circle of friends, we play Smash Bros, and there is one guy who uses whatever tactics and cheap tricks he looks up to win. He'll even play alone just to get better at using said tactics and tricks. Thing is, none of the rest of us do that because we're just there to have fun playing the game. But when he plays, most of us (not myself or his brother because we manage to hold our own from time to time) get our asses kicked because they don't own the game or play it enough or look up all the stupid stuff to get good at it. And what's worse is we'll endure playing a game with him to try and have fun. But when we do a game he doesn't like, he walks out of the room and become some kind of anti-social... um... person... I guess. No compromising with him.

Furthermore, he looks up walkthroughs for every game to get everything perfect or right the first time through. It's not a big deal to me if you are legitimately stuck at a part of a game and can't figure out how to get around it, or if you've already beaten it and want to see what stuff you missed. But at least let the game be a challenge the first time around instead of trying to have the best run possible through the damn thing.

 

[vrbtny]

If you play through any FPS using only "The best gun" then you're sorely missing something. I always, when playing a campaign, routinely change weapon otherwise I get really bored with a game. Seriously, Half an hour of listening to the clattering of AK-47 can get really annoying.

 

[Evill_Bob]

Kinda why I never really like Warcraft or many RTS games for that matter. I started in Empire Earth so I came to enjoy long drawn out games. Sure you could rush but I one of the better turtle players. I'd like to say this conservative nature follows over to FPS games.. but... well... [link]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81inDxqyzc0[/link]

 

[The Funslinger]

They're one in the same really. "The best way" is the most fun way to play for many people out there: some people can only have fun playing RPGs and such if they are meticulously min/maxing and constantly consulting a wiki to make the perfect character build. This is "having fun" for them. It just so happens that some people in this camp frown upon people who dare to play otherwise. It's not so much that they frown upon "fun," but they frown upon a lack of optimization, if you will.

Fun is a very ambiguous word. It can mean a lot of different things for a lot of different people. Turning your RPG into a "spreadsheet" might not be your idea of fun, but there are people out there who do get a sense of accomplishment from such micromanagement.

Well, to be fair, the point he's making is that those people look down on his way of having fun. With the example with the LP where the guy thrashed the boss, there were two examples of being "good" at the game. An example of this is with a friend of mine. (We didn't argue, it's just an example) we were both doing playthroughs of Mega-man X: Command Mission. He had a more developed party than mine, but we were both stuck on the same boss. By using his save, I was able to just about defeat the boss, because while he's better at character development, I'm better at the actual "playing" and using the combat system.