Honestly, I think I might get tired of it if it goes on that long. I like my stories to end eventually. Know that everything is wrapped up. It gets a little too tiring for me when things just keep going and going and you have to keep all this stuff straight.
The Big Picture: Age of Heroes
- Thread starter MovieBob
- Start date
Didn't Edge of Tomorrow kind of bomb? I really liked it, but my understanding is that the numbers were a disappointment.LazyAza said:
I'm literally in the middle of watching a big bubble burst. It's kind of exciting.
"...It's possible that they might not."
That's how fads work, Bob. Superheros are big now, until... they're not anymore. Objects in motion tend to stay in motion? You assume that these franchises will remain popular. But, that's the thing, these markets change suddenly, and drastically. Suddenly the next genre defining Star Wars syle film will come out, and Hollywood will have a glut of superheroes that no one cares about anymore. These companies stand to lose a lot of money when this DOES happen, if they can't adapt. Other companies will adapt, and chase after the new fad, while mistakenly believing that Superheroes aren't profitable anymore. No one who found themselves in a bubble fad ever thought the gravy train would end. Then it did. Go look up Tulipomania.
This genre isn't self perpetuating, and it isn't permanent. It will probably last at least another decade, since we're in the middle of a golden age, but in the end it's a fad. Traditional narratives haven't died either. People will always want more then never ending genre installments with no nutritional value.
Your vision has been clouded by your bias, bob, but I will feel sympathetic when your Marvel films are replaced by football movies, or films about clowns fighting dinosaurs or something.
"...It's possible that they might not."
That's how fads work, Bob. Superheros are big now, until... they're not anymore. Objects in motion tend to stay in motion? You assume that these franchises will remain popular. But, that's the thing, these markets change suddenly, and drastically. Suddenly the next genre defining Star Wars syle film will come out, and Hollywood will have a glut of superheroes that no one cares about anymore. These companies stand to lose a lot of money when this DOES happen, if they can't adapt. Other companies will adapt, and chase after the new fad, while mistakenly believing that Superheroes aren't profitable anymore. No one who found themselves in a bubble fad ever thought the gravy train would end. Then it did. Go look up Tulipomania.
This genre isn't self perpetuating, and it isn't permanent. It will probably last at least another decade, since we're in the middle of a golden age, but in the end it's a fad. Traditional narratives haven't died either. People will always want more then never ending genre installments with no nutritional value.
Your vision has been clouded by your bias, bob, but I will feel sympathetic when your Marvel films are replaced by football movies, or films about clowns fighting dinosaurs or something.
In my opinion even Michael Bay vehicles like Transformers and TMNT share enough traits to be benefiting from and empowering the same tsunami. If Transformers 4 can rake in a billion, there is no way even a sure winner like Batman completely failing will stop the genre.Paul10238 said:
This video was like a nightmare, I can't have superhero movies perpetuating forever. I mean seriously, if you've seen one film, you've seen them all, and the idea that we'll keep getting the same bland story with okay acting and dialogue is just too much. We need more popular films that don't just feel like disposable product, and to me all these films just seem like Hollywood is trying to sell me something rather than actually make art.
I'm not asking that we get Jean Luc-Godard to have billion dollar budgets so he can make films for a wide audience (Though I would love to see what he can do with it). Just give me films like Snowpiercer, that's an action film that actually feels like it's not just trying to make money. Even if it's a little blatant in it's social commentary, the details of that film really lets it shine above the types of films typically coming out of the studio system these days and it's a film that I think can appeal to everyone. Or hell, give us more films like Obvious Child, a movie that at least I think has wide appeal, but definitely has the personal touches that can make it stand out.
I'm not asking that we get Jean Luc-Godard to have billion dollar budgets so he can make films for a wide audience (Though I would love to see what he can do with it). Just give me films like Snowpiercer, that's an action film that actually feels like it's not just trying to make money. Even if it's a little blatant in it's social commentary, the details of that film really lets it shine above the types of films typically coming out of the studio system these days and it's a film that I think can appeal to everyone. Or hell, give us more films like Obvious Child, a movie that at least I think has wide appeal, but definitely has the personal touches that can make it stand out.
You forgot the most important part of Newton's law Bob.
Entropy.
Any object in motion is in danger of entropic forces. No market can expand indefinitely. The bubble will burst like it has for any and every pop cultural phenomenon in history. Nothing remains mainstream forever and one day these movies will lose their lustre and something else will take over as the zeitgeist. Cape movies are not the future of movies. They are a blip, at best a new genre.
I still have a desktop PC by the way...
Entropy.
Any object in motion is in danger of entropic forces. No market can expand indefinitely. The bubble will burst like it has for any and every pop cultural phenomenon in history. Nothing remains mainstream forever and one day these movies will lose their lustre and something else will take over as the zeitgeist. Cape movies are not the future of movies. They are a blip, at best a new genre.
I still have a desktop PC by the way...
I think something we have to remember is that unlike Spaghetti Westerns, Horror, or any other genre which came and passed as the in things, super hero movies aren't a genre onto themselves. Going in order for the MCU, we have:
A techno-thriller/drama
A fugitive movie
Another techno-thriller/drama
A fantasy movie
A war movie
A team up movie
An action drama about terrorism
A fantasy movie
A political-thriller
A space action/comedy
And that's just the MCU, is Warner can actually get its act together we may have a similar pattern of 'same universe, different genre' done. Something else to remember is that trends don't form or collapse overnight, and with how gradual it actually is it's well within the realm of possibility that a change can be done to not-yet in production movies to reflect these changes (Marvel has already done so twice at the least so far). When Bob said it might not go away any time soon (or at all) I have to agree with him. We know that at the very least Marvel will be doing these until Infinity Wars part 2 no matter what (and probably long after that), and by that time a very large part of the market (everyone in elementary, middle and high school) will have grown up with this always having been the norm.
Personally, I think serialized storytelling his here to stay, and that those who manage to make it work long term will be those who can balance self perpetuating storytelling with accessibility to new or previously uninterested viewers
A techno-thriller/drama
A fugitive movie
Another techno-thriller/drama
A fantasy movie
A war movie
A team up movie
An action drama about terrorism
A fantasy movie
A political-thriller
A space action/comedy
And that's just the MCU, is Warner can actually get its act together we may have a similar pattern of 'same universe, different genre' done. Something else to remember is that trends don't form or collapse overnight, and with how gradual it actually is it's well within the realm of possibility that a change can be done to not-yet in production movies to reflect these changes (Marvel has already done so twice at the least so far). When Bob said it might not go away any time soon (or at all) I have to agree with him. We know that at the very least Marvel will be doing these until Infinity Wars part 2 no matter what (and probably long after that), and by that time a very large part of the market (everyone in elementary, middle and high school) will have grown up with this always having been the norm.
Personally, I think serialized storytelling his here to stay, and that those who manage to make it work long term will be those who can balance self perpetuating storytelling with accessibility to new or previously uninterested viewers
Darth_Payn said:
Remember if Bob doesn't like it, it's a bomb regardless of it making $1 billion and if he likes it and it bombs then it's because everyone who didn't see it is a douchebag.
Also Bob's a former employee of a Disney subsidiary and it's likely he still has some sources there so attacking their rivals is normal. Go look at his overthinker videos and twitter account to see the Sony/Microsoft killed gaming and that anyone who likes those systems is a woman beating racist spiels as he is an extreme fringe Nintendo fan..
How to kill the Marvel Cinematic Universe
1. Antman and Doctor Strange under perform.
2. Disney remove Kevin Feige and cancel other films based on outlier characters (black panther, Ms Marvel etc)
3. Disney plays it safe with a focus on sequels of already successful characters (we have seen this already with Pixar)
4. Audience gets bored of the rehashes the end.
1. Antman and Doctor Strange under perform.
2. Disney remove Kevin Feige and cancel other films based on outlier characters (black panther, Ms Marvel etc)
3. Disney plays it safe with a focus on sequels of already successful characters (we have seen this already with Pixar)
4. Audience gets bored of the rehashes the end.
Merklyn236 said:
Fox is more ambitious than that.
FF this year
2016
Deadpool
Gambit
X-Men: Apocalypse
2017
Wolverine 2
FF 2
Still doesn't in many countries, just sayin'.
Personally, I'm starting to reach my limit for watching superhero movies. Sure, there are a lot of them I really enjoyed and some I'm looking forward to, but the subject matter was always in the category 'big dumb fun'. There's only so much of that I can continue to enjoy before I want something with a little more substance. For me they're basically the movie equivalent of Call of Duty: expertly crafted for the lowest common denominator. That's fine and can be a lot of fun, but at some point I'll say "no thanks".
I dunno, it's just very hard to still get excited for a new superhero movie. Maybe because I never grew up with American superheroes or something. Batman was basically the only one I knew growing up (always thought Superman was the most boring superhero ever). Hell, before the Marvel movies, I'd hardly ever heard of Iron Man or Captain America. Avengers? Wasn't that some 60's TV series?
It will end how it always ends. Over saturation, consumer fatigue, and the rise of new trends. I can't wait either, can not wait.
One of my favorite youtubers did a video on a subject similar to this one back in November of last year. Though while Bob seems to believe that this gravy train will just keep on rolling on its biscuit wheels, this guy seems to believe we're heading for a crash.
Meh, I'm already looking forward to GoG2, the next Captain America, Suicide Squad, also Wonder Women. So what's the issue here? Are you complaining that super hero moves are being overdone? I don't see that personally.
Movies like these only become an issue when the plot and story lines are reused again and again without anything different being done. Take GoG for instance, you don't even have to look at it as a super hero movie per say. It's more Star Wars then it is X-Men.
Super Heroes aren't like zombie movies. Now zombie movies I will have gripes over. I mean just how many times to movie makers and also game makers plan to show a zombie apocalypse? Everything about the genre is now cliche but yet we still keep getting them.
I mean, the last movie that did anything interesting with zombies was Shaun of the Dead, and it was by making it into a comedy. And before that, 28 Days Later, and that was by making them run fast. I mean come one!
Movies like these only become an issue when the plot and story lines are reused again and again without anything different being done. Take GoG for instance, you don't even have to look at it as a super hero movie per say. It's more Star Wars then it is X-Men.
Super Heroes aren't like zombie movies. Now zombie movies I will have gripes over. I mean just how many times to movie makers and also game makers plan to show a zombie apocalypse? Everything about the genre is now cliche but yet we still keep getting them.
I mean, the last movie that did anything interesting with zombies was Shaun of the Dead, and it was by making it into a comedy. And before that, 28 Days Later, and that was by making them run fast. I mean come one!
IGN would do every single one of those Nova movie articles and a top 10 list.
Since the zombie genre STILL refuses to die, superheroes are definitely gonna be around for a long time.
Since the zombie genre STILL refuses to die, superheroes are definitely gonna be around for a long time.
I have thought about this myself. There would have to be a large number of flops in a row for this thing to fail, and it just seems unlikely to happen. I do wonder about how excited I will be about it when they start making other people be the main heroes. Part of what I love is the fact that I collected these characters in comics form pretty much non-stop from the time I was 7 till I was about 25, and I still buy collections of books I'm interested in.
But when Steven Rogers isn't Captain America, someone else is wearing the Iron Man armor, etc., will I still be that excited about it?
We'll see I guess. Ultimately, I only ever cared in comics about good stories. You can take my favorite characters, put a shitty writer on them (Hulk is my favorite, and the whole Red Hulk thing was a trudge at best), and I'm not a huge fan anymore. The big events of the last few years have been such a tremendous shit pile (in my opinion) that the actual Marvel comics themselves have become a lot more unattractive than they had been in previous years. Couple that with their need to constantly try to raise the book prices and it's hard to drop money on a book that I'm not sure about anymore.
Edit: My one criticism is that channels like CNN almost never touch this stuff. There are a bunch of people out there who are up to their neck all the time in honest to god real newsworthy issues that this stuff doesn't rate. There is the aspect where they will take their family or kids to see them as an escape, but when they walk out of the theatre, they go right back to business and this stuff isn't thought about again.
If anything it's a keen demonstration to how much free time people, in general, have on their hands. I mostly skip a lot of those one off movie announcements because they aren't worth my time, but that is me. They will remain click bait till it all crashes.
But when Steven Rogers isn't Captain America, someone else is wearing the Iron Man armor, etc., will I still be that excited about it?
We'll see I guess. Ultimately, I only ever cared in comics about good stories. You can take my favorite characters, put a shitty writer on them (Hulk is my favorite, and the whole Red Hulk thing was a trudge at best), and I'm not a huge fan anymore. The big events of the last few years have been such a tremendous shit pile (in my opinion) that the actual Marvel comics themselves have become a lot more unattractive than they had been in previous years. Couple that with their need to constantly try to raise the book prices and it's hard to drop money on a book that I'm not sure about anymore.
Edit: My one criticism is that channels like CNN almost never touch this stuff. There are a bunch of people out there who are up to their neck all the time in honest to god real newsworthy issues that this stuff doesn't rate. There is the aspect where they will take their family or kids to see them as an escape, but when they walk out of the theatre, they go right back to business and this stuff isn't thought about again.
If anything it's a keen demonstration to how much free time people, in general, have on their hands. I mostly skip a lot of those one off movie announcements because they aren't worth my time, but that is me. They will remain click bait till it all crashes.
Interesting points, Bob. I personally still think this is a bubble that will one day pop, but your example in the end of superheros not always dominating comics was a fascinating one. You're right, this could just evolve to be the new normal.
But could you stop with the random shots against films like Dark Knight Rises? The silent majority of us value your opinions and reviews even when they contradict our own, and even though I loved Rises I still want to hear why you didn't. But look at this thread: half of it, including me, is sidetracked discussion about your opinion of what the "bad" superhero movies are. You obviously don't hold Rises on anywhere near the same level of contempt as Catwoman or other notorious duds, and overall reviews for the film are very good, so you know you're in the minority on your opinion. Proceeding to speak of Rises in such terms anyway feels like you're baiting us.
But could you stop with the random shots against films like Dark Knight Rises? The silent majority of us value your opinions and reviews even when they contradict our own, and even though I loved Rises I still want to hear why you didn't. But look at this thread: half of it, including me, is sidetracked discussion about your opinion of what the "bad" superhero movies are. You obviously don't hold Rises on anywhere near the same level of contempt as Catwoman or other notorious duds, and overall reviews for the film are very good, so you know you're in the minority on your opinion. Proceeding to speak of Rises in such terms anyway feels like you're baiting us.
I've been expecting the bubble will burst since Thor 2. Don't get me wrong, I liked the movie, but it represented a problem with bringing comics to the movies: the comics themselves. The big epic stories we know can be years apart, leaving a lot of stories that get generic, repetitive and underwhelming. Factor in how much of the hype can be around the well known heroes being used, the actors involved, and the hope for the big event stories (note how people want planet hulk, not a hulk sequel with the Leader), and it's clear that when the cool stories slow down (after Thanos, you can't go back the level of the space phantoms, the u-foes, and even the Masters of Evil would seem lame), the favorite actors leave, and the movies fall into the same "good guys always win" trap the comics did, and Marvel movies will end up like Bond films and slasher flicks: good for the diehard fans, but hard to sell otherwise.