The Big Picture: Baggage

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kingmob

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The problem is when points of view become the headline of the review, instead of the work itself. Societal factors are often overblown for an agenda, yes even when the person is not actively pursuing said agenda.
The by now famous escapist review made a mistake, because it focussed very strongly on the subjective view of the reviewer. As stated, this is not something that can ever be avoided, but it is another thing to completely embrace it. A reviewer needs to understand its platform and audience. The difference is in the way it is finally communicated. The review was actually quite mild, but did make it the main point of the review. That is the mistake, because people aren't terrible interested in the author in general and the author has just made the piece about him/herself, instead of for the audience. Probably a lot of the audience will hold similar views, so it is certainly relevant. But it shouldn't be the point.

Also 'check your privilege' is horrible in an objective sense. It can only be used to ignore viewpoints based on the background of the person saying them. And is only used when it is about backgrounds. It is the ultimate irony that is only accepted because the person affected is indeed actually part of a privileged group. That doesn't make it less stupid however. Using it will therefore never lead to interesting debate, it is a fallacy used to get moral high-ground.
I feel like people who use it are half-way there in terms of growing up. The next step is to realise that being insulted does not give anyone any rights and that being part of a non-privileged group also doesn't give you any privileges.

The utopia is that race/sex/whatever is a non-issue, not that no one gets insulted. This is an important distinction. There is no such thing as accidental racism/sexism/etc! I know most people will not agree to the last part, but it is actually a fact. But discussing it will lead mostly to a semantic discussion that I'm not too interested in having. Just realize that discrimination is all about intention, it is an active act, not passive. On some level this is clear to everyone; I think everyone understands that Django Unchained is not racist, even though it includes wildly racist characters and themes.

By the way, I think Bob's Ender review fits more or less perfectly with what I said above. It acknowledges something, but doesn't make it a point. People are maximally informed in an entertaining way and everyone understands clearly I think where Bob's opinions are coming from. It is exactly how a review should be imo. The creator and his ideas clearly matters to a lot of the audience, it simply needed to be addressed.
 

HappyBarbarian

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Nov 15, 2011
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Thank you for an excellent episode Mr. Chipman! Insightful stuff like this is why you are my favorite movie critic.


I think Bob made an excellent argument about the myth of perfect objectivity. It baffles me this idea does not regularly come up in similar disciplines, like say news journalism.

As an experiment, try reading about a highly controversial news story in more than one news outlet. Fox News, BBC, and Al Jazeera for example. Read each one and think about what conclusions you'd reach if you knew nothing about the topic and took the news report at face value. Chances are the reported facts will be pretty much the same but the conclusions will be wildly divergent. Yet all the outlets claim to be objective.

Wouldn't it be better if we all just own up to the bias rather than pretending to be "fair and balanced"? At least then I can enjoy people's points and maybe learn something rather than having to reverse engineer whatever political, cultural, or cognitive bias they've got going on.

Oh, wait a tic. If we admit that we have bias, we also admit that it's possible that bias may not be right. Nobody want's to do that. Nevermind. Forget I said anything.
 

K12

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Dec 28, 2012
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I think the thing that people really hate is when people aren't up front about the "baggage" that affects their opinion.

Bob is usually quite good at saying "I can't enjoy this film because of the shit going on behind the scenes" but when people talk about a film in terms of "only a liberal could enjoy this" or "no-one will like this because it's really sexist" then that's annoying.

The Baggage is important to mention but it's annoying when people act like they are speaking for everyone when talking about an issue that many wouldn't be too bothered about (or might not even notice).
 

K12

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misterprickly said:
K12 said:
I think the thing that people really hate is when people aren't up front about the "baggage" that affects their opinion.

Bob is usually quite good at saying "I can't enjoy this film because of the shit going on behind the scenes" but when people talk about a film in terms of "only a liberal could enjoy this" or "no-one will like this because it's really sexist" then that's annoying.

The Baggage is important to mention but it's annoying when people act like they are speaking for everyone when talking about an issue that many wouldn't be too bothered about (or might not even notice).
Speaking of BAGGAGE...
...
First Rob Ford, now this!

Does ANYONE have ANY integrity left?
This isn't a dent on Bob's integrity because he's publicly defended her in his series so there's no lack of integrity here just consistency.

Also she isn't Idi Amin for fuck's sake! Even if you hate the stuff she's done it doesn't make you a villain for by seeing seen with her.

The reaction to her has been far more damning of video gaming culture than anything she could possibly put in them.
 

K12

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misterprickly said:
K12 said:
misterprickly said:
K12 said:
I think the thing that people really hate is when people aren't up front about the "baggage" that affects their opinion.

Bob is usually quite good at saying "I can't enjoy this film because of the shit going on behind the scenes" but when people talk about a film in terms of "only a liberal could enjoy this" or "no-one will like this because it's really sexist" then that's annoying.

The Baggage is important to mention but it's annoying when people act like they are speaking for everyone when talking about an issue that many wouldn't be too bothered about (or might not even notice).
Speaking of BAGGAGE...
...
First Rob Ford, now this!

Does ANYONE have ANY integrity left?
This isn't a dent on Bob's integrity because he's publicly defended her in his series so there's no lack of integrity here just consistency.

Also she isn't Idi Amin for fuck's sake! Even if you hate the stuff she's done it doesn't make you a villain for by seeing seen with her.

The reaction to her has been far more damning of video gaming culture than anything she could possibly put in them.
True; It doesn't dent his integrity.
If he's willing to be photographed with a troll-bating scam artist, it shows that he has NO integrity!

And yes, she's no Idi Amin... Idi Amin didn't play victim when public opinion swayed against him.
It's lucky that trolls aren't rising to this bait isn't it. It's also lucky that massively disproportionate (like implying she's worse than a genocidal dictator!) criticism and threats of her hasn't turned a fairly minor internet commentary into such a big deal.

Well done for that.
 

sewingrose

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Nov 18, 2009
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I'm curious about something, for the people who say they prefer objective reviews and without any baggage and that's how "reviews should be", what if I prefer reviews that analyze the politics of a film? Like for instance after Dark Knight Rises(and Dark Knight to a lesser extent), I was actively seeking out discussions on the odd conservative-ideology the films seemed to exhibit.

I prefer reviews that actually look at the ideology of a film, how characters (yes mainly women and other minorities) are treated, and what the message of the film is. (Every story has a message of some sort, even if it's as basic as "friendship is good" or "that guy will avenge his wife's death" or "shooting the enemy targets in the game", by nature of story telling there is being a story told, and there is some sort of message being told by said story.)

To me, I would be completely uninterested in a review of a movie that didn't discuss it beyond it's basic plot premise. That is how I prefer reviews and film criticism, as a combination of the two, and that is fine. You can prefer something completely differently, an, as you would call it, "objective" review. That is also fine.

But your preference for a type of review is not better then mine. I don't go around complaining about reviews that I feel are shallow, I just look for ones that are more in-depth. And it's really annoying to see people complaining about reviews that by their nature are subjective having the author talking about interpretations or views on the material beyond a "solid story, decent technical effects, 7/10".

~Also a quick note on the cringe-inducing discussion up-thread about boycotting products. I can refuse to give money to an organization/person that I dislike, but that does not mean I need to do that for every product of any sort that I would also dislike. I do not have the time to research every aspect of every product I am going to buy, and it is not my responsibility to do so.

And yes, I am going to care about things that are more directly related to me, like an anti-gay organization over sweatshops because the former is more directly relevant to my daily life then the latter. I, and many of my friends are in the LBGT community, and Card donating money to a anti-gay groups, does affect me personally. That does not mean I am a horrible, horrible person for caring more about the rights of myself and my friends over the working conditions of those in other countries. It's a basic example of how we care more about things that are directly relevant to us.

(Another example: I lost my sister to leukemia, therefore my preferred charities of choice are related to leukemia specific research, or animal welfare which was her personal passion. That does not mean that my not donating to other organizations that I hate the people they help, like I hate the poor due to my lack of support for the Salvation Army or I prefer animals welfare over human welfare, but that the two causes I support are more directly important to me.)
 

Verlander

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I would suggest Bob drops his film degree, and embarks on an Art History degree before making videos like this.

A x critique of y is a classical form of criticism, but it's involved within theory and philosophical movement. Those criticisms didn't say "this is less of a work because of something the author said outside of the scope of the piece".

Objectivist criticism exists for a reason, which is that it's a fairer evaluation of a piece. You can retroactively criticise a piece in it's historical frame of reference, but that's far harder to do in the present, as you do not have access to the same oversight or resource. Current fine art criticism doesn't waste time with the personal life of the artist, it deals with the artwork and the thought behind it. Ender's Game is not about homophobia, therefore the discussion about the author is irrelevant.

It's difficult to see this video as anything other than a way of trying to legitimise Bob's bias against Orson Scott Card. As he is only tangentially related to the project, any commentary on him as a person is irrelevant to the review. He was the author of the book, not the film.
 

EmilShmiengura

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Feb 17, 2009
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MovieBob said:
Baggage

This week MovieBob critiques modern criticism, starting with Ender's Game.
So you made a video criticising those who criticised your critique of Ender's Game. In which you make the obvious point that there's a difference between consumer advice and what a movie critic does. With a small drop of self-righteousness towards the end. WHY? You're a movie critic, not somebody from QA for heaven's sake. Why should you feel the need to defend your last review (or any of the for that matter) is beyond me.
 

Habballah

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Sep 25, 2013
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MovieBob said:
Baggage

This week MovieBob critiques modern criticism, starting with Ender's Game.

Watch Video

I'm half way through your video,
and this is amazing. Maybe your just coming at me at 110 miles an hour leaping from point to point
before I can really grasp what's going on,
but i liked what you did with this whole video.
I hated your reveiw for enders game, but this... this was great. This isn't just a great movie bob video.
This is a great video ^^.

Thank you.
 

DjinnFor

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Nov 20, 2009
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Grach said:
Thanks Bob, now when someone says they want an objective review I can just point them to this video.
And accomplish nothing because it's a poorly argued strawman. Relevant to the discussion about objectivity in critiques:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/critical-miss/10511-How-to-Talk-About-Games-1

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/critical-miss/10529-How-to-Talk-About-Games-3
 

chikusho

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Jun 14, 2011
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Verlander said:
I would suggest Bob drops his film degree, and embarks on an Art History degree before making videos like this.

A x critique of y is a classical form of criticism, but it's involved within theory and philosophical movement. Those criticisms didn't say "this is less of a work because of something the author said outside of the scope of the piece".
So what you're saying is that Bob is completely correct, as he doesn't let OSC's involvement affect his opinion of the movie?
Great!
 

Aardvaarkman

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Jul 14, 2011
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kingmob said:
The by now famous escapist review made a mistake, because it focussed very strongly on the subjective view of the reviewer.
What "famous" review are you talking about?
 

Aardvaarkman

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Jul 14, 2011
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Verlander said:
Objectivist criticism exists for a reason, which is that it's a fairer evaluation of a piece.
It appears that "Objectivist" doesn't mean what you think it means. You really think that a review filtered through the extreme philosophy of Objectivism is going to be a "fairer evaluation"? If there's anything Objectivists are known for, it's certainly not being fair.
 

itsmeyouidiot

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DjinnFor said:
Grach said:
Thanks Bob, now when someone says they want an objective review I can just point them to this video.
And accomplish nothing because it's a poorly argued strawman. Relevant to the discussion about objectivity in critiques:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/critical-miss/10511-How-to-Talk-About-Games-1

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/critical-miss/10529-How-to-Talk-About-Games-3
I'd like to hear what was so poorly argued about it, because I didn't see anything.
 

Darth_Payn

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So...many...fast...images...[HEADSPLODE!!!] Well said, Bob! I laughed when you got to those fops and dandies going "We have nothing else to do with our time!" and you gave a really good explanation of how criticism works. I'm still of the mind that since art is never created in a vacuum, it must be critiqued on its own merits and context, not have the critic's beliefs and "theories" as you put them crowbarred into them when they don't fit.
 

xaszatm

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Sep 4, 2010
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misterprickly said:
The hardest part of a critics job is to fight the bias an try to give an impartial view of their experience.
Which is easier said than done.
I respectfully disagree. I'd say the hardest part of a critic's job is to explain why a certain bias of his affects his view of the experience. I believe that there will never truly be an objective critique of art. Be it paintings, statues, books, film, or even video games, you will be unable to create an objective critique of such matters because such art itself is subjective.

Critiques must always be recognized of having two filters: that of the artist and that of the critic. And if I know why said critic in his review likes or dislikes something, it can help inform my opinion as well. This works in both "classical" critique (as looking through a racism or feminism lens) or even as whether I should see it or not.

Take "Birth of a Nation" as an example. The film, on its own merits, is a fantastic film and a pioneer in the work of film. Yet, in just commenting on the film itself truly a way to inform audiences of its content? "Birth of a Nation" is a highly controversial film both back in its day and now because of circumstances surrounding the film and the content in the film itself. Should I keep my bias of how black people are portrayed or how the Ku Klux Klan is portrayed as heroic out of my critique of the film itself? Or is such bias important to tell in a critique?

Sorry about my poor English. I'm not as good with words.
 

Windrave

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Is anyone else having difficulty viewing the videos from The Big Picture, they all worked for me the other day, but now when I try they don't load.. this isn't a problem for any of the other series I watch... has something happened to the channel?
 

AT God

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Windrave said:
Is anyone else having difficulty viewing the videos from The Big Picture, they all worked for me the other day, but now when I try they don't load.. this isn't a problem for any of the other series I watch... has something happened to the channel?
I literally just tried to watch the new BP and it isn't working so I think somethings wrong with them at the moment. Zero Punctuation still works so its probably a server error or something.
 

shiajun

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For my part, I can't understand people who say there is such a thing as an objective review. Like an utopia, it's a good goal to have yet completely unattainable. The people writing such critiques are...well...people, and therefore either conciously or unconciously influenced by their cultural/social/personal views. As such, I find it kind of futile to lambast a person doing a review for injecting their views into the text. Some people do it (or over-do it), some people restrain, but a review will never be devoid of personal discourse. People too focused on wanting reviews to be clinical, empty of any commentary or context, are just in for a world of disappointment (and in my opinion, are trying to make reviews as dry and boring as a user's manual).

I find a review is more useful if the critic is honest about their views so that I, when reading their work, can see if the opinions contained within are likely to be shared by me and therefore have a similar response to the film/play/book/game/etc. No one can ever predict if you will or won't enjoy or appreciate something, even if you share the mindset of the reviewer. All they can do is convey to you what they felt and thought based on their expertise, knowledge and tastes. It is lazy on the part on the receiver to want the reviewer to give them a precise, digested analysis of the parts and cruch out a definite, unquestionable judgment. Such a person doesn't want to do the self-analyzing part. Numerical reviews are such non-sensical reductions of art appreciation. In games, you can approach a quantification of the technical aspects of the software. However, that has nothing to do with the experience. I have played a bunch of games that wouldn't be remarkable or good from a technical aspect but the experience was pretty interesting. You have to read to get what the jist is. Maybe that's asking too much of the instant consumer mentality.