The Big Picture: Blecch, Dull Tests

[Falseprophet]

I tend to hold the Bechdel Test in the same light as the Body Mass Index (BMI) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_mass_index]:

-Both are extremely simple to calculate and require no special training or equipment.

-There are far better ways to accomplish the goals of the test, but might require more time, effort, or specialized training.

-Both have their uses in illustrating very broad trends in large populations (issues in female representation in movies/the prevalence of obesity).

-Both have too many shortcomings and limitations to be used as some kind of value judgment when applied to individual subjects (your movie is not automatically feminist just because it passes the Bechdel Test/Having a BMI of 25 or higher doesn't necessarily mean you're at an unhealthy weight).

 

[Uhura]

Yeah. I wish Bob had really emphasized the fact that the test doesn't say anything about the quality of individual movies but that it's useful if you want to look at general trends in film making. Maybe he could have made a 10 minute bonus video where he just repeats that point over and over again. Because I'm 80% sure, that we will yet again see an influx of people who don't know how the test works but are still infuriated by the test.

 

[themilo504]

I always found the test rather stupid and faulty, but now that I know its actual purpose I guess it?s pretty clever.

Something that seems more interesting to me is how many female characters have(or are) love interests compared to how many male characters have(or are) love interests.

 

[Lucane]

I disagree with the notion that the test doesn't give due credit to movies with strong female characters. It still raises the interesting question of why there is usually only one strong female character. Most of the movies you referenced as having a strong female character had multiple strong male characters. When a single strong female exists among a whole cast of male characters, it still undermines women because that character is seen as "the woman" and the exception to the rule. I mean, why couldn't the Terminator look female? The Hobbit already incensed fans by spreading itself into 3 movies in a blatant and pathetic money grab. They made up so much bullshit for those movies, but Tauriel was a huge concession? Give me a break.

Just me being nip picky but Terminator 3 had a female Terminator (half liquid/half solid) who was the only one to actually set the Skynet takeover into action while still failing to kill John(?) Connor but that's still 1 model out of all of them including the one who look like anything in T:2 and all the non-humanoid ones from the last one in the future though if the attempts to use time travel to kill Connor are in order from the future her production might not of happened yet.

But more on point I don't think Bob is dismissing that just that because it doesn't pass A doesn't mean it can't be better (In whole or in part)at B than ones that pass A.

I mean if someone could make a movie where the only women in it are killing zombies for 5 minutes have one conversation about anything but men,die and the rest of the movie go in a different direction for the rest of the film and technically pass the test but not have any female characters of interest. Of course the more the merrier but one is still better than non but that shouldn't be the limit and just a minimum for entry.

 

[MatsVS]

Surprised how completely Bob missed the point here. The test is a tool to determine the quantity of female characters, not the quality. No one ever claimed differently, so not really sure what the point here is supposed to be.

 

[MB202]

This is why I love MovieBob... that opening was brilliant!

 

[Erttheking]

Thank you.

I don't know which group annoys me more. The ones that use the test as an absolute measure or the ones that get hilariously defensive at the slightest mention of the test.

Seriously. It's a good yard stick to measure overall trends in the industry, but I thought it was established that that is all it was good for. But the same thing that happens when gender gets brought up happens here. There are two extreme camps shouting at each other, and the voices of all the moderates get drowned out.

I think it's kinda messed up that so many movies still fail, but I won't call a movie that does fail sexist.

 

[Mister K]

I'm glad you decided to address this issue. It's not that I uave anything against the idea of creating some kind of standard by which we can measure non-male-obsessed female characters in movies, but like Bob said it's beginning to undermine a lot of movies that I find myself liking recently.

Pacific Rim was a great example Bob brought up. I loved that movie and Mako's character especially, and the idea that she and the whole movie fail just because she's the only one bothers me a great deal.

I haven't seen Pacific Rim since it was in theaters (I'm planning on correcting that but the store was out of stock.)but Chernov Alpha was piloted by a man and a woman the "other" pilots weren't given as much background as Stryker's and Gypsy Danger's but Mako wasn't the only woman in the movie. (though I can't think of any other women in the movie that weren't apart of a crowd.)

I'll add to that a bit. Not only Cherno Alpha is driven by husband and wife, but wife is also the "dominant" member of the pair (just a little detail about the movie: pilot that operates right arm is the domminant one). This means that she has (at the very least) stronger mentality than her husband.

And regarding Mako: so, Pacific Rim did not "pass" this "test" because she didn't talk with, for example Sasha, about stuff that is not man? Or am I making a mistake here? Because if I am right, then it's a huge steaming pile of... Manure.

 

[Lucane]

I'm glad you decided to address this issue. It's not that I uave anything against the idea of creating some kind of standard by which we can measure non-male-obsessed female characters in movies, but like Bob said it's beginning to undermine a lot of movies that I find myself liking recently.

Pacific Rim was a great example Bob brought up. I loved that movie and Mako's character especially, and the idea that she and the whole movie fail just because she's the only one bothers me a great deal.

I haven't seen Pacific Rim since it was in theaters (I'm planning on correcting that but the store was out of stock.)but Chernov Alpha was piloted by a man and a woman the "other" pilots weren't given as much background as Stryker's and Gypsy Danger's but Mako wasn't the only woman in the movie. (though I can't think of any other women in the movie that weren't apart of a crowd.)

To pass a film requires two female characters TALK to each other about something other than a man it doesn't matter how many women or there roles.

I wasn't trying to say it passed the test just that Mako Mori being the only woman in it was inaccurate.

 

[Mythmaker]

I hate to bring this up, but given Bob's position in the video I feel obligated to point this out.

The sort of thing Bob is so aggravated about here is EXACTLY the sort of thing that bugs me about Anita Sarkeesian and others regarding the DiD. Which is pretty ironic, all things considered.

It's one thing to point to point out a drought or excess of a thing as a symptom of a bigger issue, but to say that any example of such a thing is in itself an issue, regardless of context, is just ignorant and harmful to the discussion.

 

[Silent Protagonist]

I have liked Bob's last few Big Picture episodes that have dealt with feminism, and I usually(sometimes strongly) disagree with him on many of his political views. I think he has been doing a good job in episodes like this in calling out some of the pitfalls, faulty logic, and misdirected anger that can be sadly common in many feminist issues and feminists while not dismissing Feminism as a whole because of them.

Much of his commentary shows that he is in fact pretty feminist, and his ability to critique certain aspects of his own beliefs or at least of those who share his beliefs shows more intelligence and maturity than many of those who seem to think that "because Feminism" justifies any behavior or manner of thinking that can lead to very toxic situations and people that do more harm than good to their own cause such as the infamous "tumblr SJWs" and even Bob himself in some of his 'American Bob' videos.

It is kind of like an MRA saying "We need to be more about correcting the inequalities that affect men in our society and less about 'screw feminism'" or an Atheist saying "We need to be more about concentrating on the objective truths of our world and less about mocking those who do believe in a god or gods."


Personally I would like to see an episode commenting on the catch 22 of writing/portraying a female character breaking the mold of gender stereotypes and acting more "masculine" being called out as just writing a man and then adding breasts vs a female character that acts "feminine" called out as a sexist reinforcement of gender stereotypes.

Another episode I would like to see in a similar vein would be how feminism(or at least certain feminists) can sometimes becomes sexist after trying to break out of society's demand women to behave in a "feminine" way and fill feminine gender roles leads them to resent those attributes and roles in society and come to regard them as inferior, undermining both men and women who exhibit those traits or enjoy filling those roles

 

[Eamar]

Thank you. Maybe now we'll get fewer people becoming absolutely rabid and trying to cry "censorship" every time the test is even mentioned...

... Ha, just kidding, this is the internet. No one's going to let little things like what the test is actually for prevent them from raging against "those damn feminazis" -.-

 

[Headbiter]

Oh sweet mother of god.

Bob....I disagreed with you from time to time. Sometimes, I wholeheartedly agreed.

Now I can't emphasize it enough:

T-H-A-N-K Y-O-U!


No, honestly, I've been bringing up this point so often in discussions and I really feared no internet celeb would ever bring this up.
The Bechdel-Test was a joke. A satiric poke at the situation in the creative industry. THAT'S IT!

So of course some intellectually handicapped people thought to turn it into some form of Benchmark test for movies and lately even games.

I'm probably having more leisure than you in this regard but by now I even go so far as to say that anyone who actually considers a "Bechdel-rating" a viable way to judge a narrative piece of work in any qualitative regard is outright stupid, has not a shred of understanding for the writing process and just tries to simplify the world for their little minds.

And no, I'm not denying that the issue hinted at (!) in said comic exists or is an issue to consider but people who actually adopted the resulting "test" to judge movies (mainly in the context of "emancipation") lack understanding and intelligence to no lesser degree than those who created said issue.

I mean, if I were to write a movie, I could just put in a scene where two girls named Cindy and Britney talk 2 minutes about how great anal plugs are and then never mention those two girls again. There, Bechdel-test passed. Great work on gender equality, isn't it?

Gah, going into rant-mode again.

Anyway, thanks again for tackling that...thing.

 

[redknightalex]

I'm pretty sure that when Bechdel created this test in a small comic strip back in the '80s that she would ever have imagined this to be such a big deal today. It doesn't bother me that a film may or may not pass the test as long as it's enjoyable and I am most certainly for more women on both the big and small screens not talking about men or relationships in general. What does bother me is how far people will take this test, using it as a sole measure (as the comic character did) on the quality of the movie. Bob, you're right in that many movies that are great, and many movies that star amazing female protagonists, do not pass the test except that is not the real point. Movies can be just fine without passing the test and movies can be really awful even with passing it.

The Bechdel test was really meant, particularly in the '80s when there was not a lot out there in regards to female characters onscreen, to show how few women get to be on screen in a role that isn't mainly limited to the love interest or the damsel in distress, something you call out quite frequently in your reviews and other critiques. It was more relevant then than now really, as we see Hollywood embracing a slightly more gender equity solution.

However, I have a feeling you already knew this and are just sick and tired of the test being taken so seriously. I can understand that for I too am a bit annoyed by it. It's like judging a movie only by how many Academy Awards it won.

I do disagree with the idea of a Mako test because having one great female protagonist among the many other male protagonists in a film does not balance things out, either mathematically or qualitatively. Perhaps in conjunction with the Bechdel test we can get a better idea of a film's gender equality status. And why not have more women onscreen, particularly when it isn't a period piece, where fun, amusing liberties can be taken with it? Hell, RDM made Starbuck a woman and that, imho, was fantastic.

Not every film has to be this way but when we get into the fantasy and sci-fi realms of film and TV, I often wonder why the hell they can't have more women being awesome, or even onscreen for crying out loud. Are we still so gender biased in the future? I certainly hope not.

Sometimes it really does get old to always see the men being the hero with a woman to save and that, for me, is why we still need the Bechdel test.

 

[Lucane]

I'm glad you decided to address this issue. It's not that I uave anything against the idea of creating some kind of standard by which we can measure non-male-obsessed female characters in movies, but like Bob said it's beginning to undermine a lot of movies that I find myself liking recently.

Pacific Rim was a great example Bob brought up. I loved that movie and Mako's character especially, and the idea that she and the whole movie fail just because she's the only one bothers me a great deal.

I haven't seen Pacific Rim since it was in theaters (I'm planning on correcting that but the store was out of stock.)but Chernov Alpha was piloted by a man and a woman the "other" pilots weren't given as much background as Stryker's and Gypsy Danger's but Mako wasn't the only woman in the movie. (though I can't think of any other women in the movie that weren't apart of a crowd.)

I'll add to that a bit. Not only Cherno Alpha is driven by husband and wife, but wife is also the "dominant" member of the pair (just a little detail about the movie: pilot that operates right arm is the domminant one). This means that she has (at the very least) stronger mentality than her husband.

And regarding Mako: so, Pacific Rim did not "pass" this "test" because she didn't talk with, for example Sasha, about stuff that is not man? Or am I making a mistake here? Because if I am right, then it's a huge steaming pile of... Manure.

The test's intention I think, is to point out the trend of movies being written and cast to have men fill the lion's share of the roles or at least the ones with the most cross-interactions when not about romances or not being anything but an excuse to have someone talk about a different character when they are not there.

Take Transformers 2, Three/One (if you can call the 3 motorcycles all being referred to as Arcee as one entity) Arcee(s) is/are the only female Autobot(s) in the movie and Alice(?) the only female Decepticon excluding the human element they don't have a lot of women in the film when Alice is a brand new idea into the universe and they decided that her role was to try and get into the pants of the hero to get information from him not unlike a Bond girl villain. I really don't wanna recall to much more of the film but if any other women (they'd have to be human of course) did talk to each other they might have been taling about Sam as there were no prominent female soldiers or close friends to anyone in the movie who wasn't dating or married to one of the leads in the movie.

G.I. Joe: Rise of Cobra does the same if not worse with a wider array of women to choose from in the source material but only 2 made it into the movie Scarlet and the Baroness when they had so many well established characters to use like Lady Jaye, Zatanna, Jinx & Covergirl I'm not say it's a recent trend but it's seem to have gotten worse over the years in most cases for the most part.

 

[Alterego-X]

So in another word, we should have a more modern movies related test?

Modern? Why?

The problem with the Bechdel test isn't that it's outdated, but that it isn't useful for everything that people are trying to use it for.

However, as long as a large number of movies keep failing it, it still *is* a relevant signal of society in general being fucked up by sexism. It just doesn't tell anything else beyond that. And that else couldn't be measured by another "better" test anyways, only with discussion and analysis.

Surprised how completely Bob missed the point here. The test is a tool to determine the quantity of female characters, not the quality. No one ever claimed differently, so not really sure what the point here is supposed to be.

Indeed. Pacific Rim fails the test, because even if it manages to have more than one female character, they are still few enough (and only one of them is a major character), that something this unrealistic can happen.

Just how many scenes were in Pacific Rim about two men discussing something else than women? There was that first scene, then the second, then the third, the fifth, the eighth, ninth...

Maybe Pacific Rim deserves a pat on the shoulder for having a strong female protagonist, but it also demonstrates that writers still tend to think of men as the default gender, filling stories with them, and only add a few special female characters where absolutely necessary.

 

[Kurt Cristal]

Thank GOD for Moviebo- wait wrong show.

But seriously, good episode, touching on so many things about the resurgence of this test.

Now I was to see TV Tropes have a Mako Mori Test page. It needs one.