The Big Picture: Destined for Disappointment, Part 1

[Gridlock]

Hmm if i should pick out an episode where destiny is played out right it would be Code of a Hero from Beast Wars.
Dinobot having studied the golden discs knew he was destined to die at the hands of Megatron.
And yet Megatron proved that destiny isn´t something that´s set in stone, the future could be changed.

But at the very end Dinobot chose his destiny and fought for the human race and died just as it was his destiny to do......and then the writers brought him back through cloning.

 

[MaddKossack115]

Let's see... first the Intermission article on "Divergent" was about how Young Adult novels/movies are blatant symbolism for high school life to appeal to easily-duped, angsty teenagers...

Then this Big Picture video was about how destiny is used to shoehorn plot progression without character development, actual conflict, or even paying attention to common sense...

...Is it just me, or is Hollywood taking its entire playbook from "TEH BESTEST MARY SUE STORY GUIDE EVAAARRRR!!!!1!1111!!!" these days?

 

[Dastardly]

Destined for Disappointment, Part 1

MovieBob looks at the overuse of "Destiny" as a plot point in recent superhero movies.

Watch Video

While I do hate the whole Destiny-Ex-Machina problem, that isn't the most problematic part of what they do with things like Spider-Man and Ninja Turtles. Whether or not it's "destined," I just hate the fact that everything in each universe has to be tied together.

A lack of loose ends makes for a neat and tidy product... but also a small, limited, boring one. Look at how all of the more recent Star Wars "extended universe" stuff seems to have a quota system that dictates, "You must make X references per chapter to a person/planet/device/slang term from the source material."

Yeah, you want the universe to have a certain flavor to it... but how big is this so-called universe if I keep running into the same eight people everywhere I go? Or if everyone talks the same?

Connection to cannon is the seasoning that ensures a certain connection between the flavor of several stories. But overuse it, or allow it to override anything distinct, and the flavor gets boiled down to "salty."

 

[Justin1221]

Damn, I thought for SURE he was gonna say Harry Potter!

 

[Dire Sloth]

I was hoping for some discussion on the new look for the turtles (which I personally love so far).

 

[skylog]

I would have guessed that the Harry Potter series does the destiny thing pretty well. There is a prophecy but it is kept ambiguous, it's even possible that Harry Potter shoved his butt into another guy's destiny inadvertantly while himself struggling a whole lot with it.

Exactly, I was gonna say that. I don't remember if the movies got into it, but the books make a point of reiterating that our own choices govern our lives. Harry CHOSE to not go to Slytherin, Voldemort CHOSE one of two different babies to attack.

On another note, would April turning out to be Splinter's daughter really be that bad? In the new cartoon,

Spoiler

Karai turns out to be Splinter's daughter. Hell, it also turns out that April is a human/Krang mutant hybrid

, so why is what the movie is doing any worse? It's just how this turtle dimension worked out.

 

[MovieBob]

Why is it okay to criticize them for making Shredder a white guy but, when people oppose making Heimdall black, we jump all over them?

Maybe if it's racist one way, it should be racist the other way too?

In a perfect, ideal world where there is absolutely zero current presence or history of racism and inequality favoring white/western persons over others in power, wealth and social influence? Yes, it should and probably would be. However, we do not inhabit an ideal world. We inhabit this real one, where the history of the West and the United States in particular regarding power, presence and priviliges among differing races is... well, what it is.

And within that context, no - a black actor getting a major role the type of which black actors not named Will Smith are often shut out of is not a "bad" thing in my estimation, largely because whichever hypothetical white actor "lost" the role of Heimdall (or Johnny Storm, or whoever) has hundreds of thousands of other "prominent white guy" parts to go for instead. On the flip side of that: Quick! Name as many major lead hero or villain roles of Japanese descent in huge movie-ready franchises like TMNT (or Marvel/DC comics, or whatever) as you can off the top of your head. Not that many, right? So if you're a Japanese (or any variety of Asian, really) actor in Hollywood... the big-money parts waiting for you are kind of limited compared to the THOUSANDS of big-money parts available to, say, Shia LaBeouf. Well, now thanks to White Shredder, there's now one LESS.

 

[Gunnyboy]

Why is it okay to criticize them for making Shredder a white guy but, when people oppose making Heimdall black, we jump all over them?

Maybe if it's racist one way, it should be racist the other way too?

The problem with this line of thinking is that it completely ignores the context of race in Hollywood. Recasting a white guy for a black one doesn't exist in an industry that constantly does just that.

Furthermore, Heimdall being black doesn't change his character at all, while white washing Shredder actually changes who the character is.

Heimdall is known as the Whitest of all the gods, and the fact Idris is the only black guy in Asgard makes it even weirder.

 

[daibakuha]

You raise SO MANY questions!

How does the Dark Side imbalance the Force by existing? EXPLAIN. Please FINISH your statement. What does Balancing the Force mean, if not equal amount of each side present / at use in the Universe?

You may be referring to what I touched on in my other post with the Recluse Saga. This being it was Anakin's Destiny to lay down the road for Luke, as the first Force practitioner to Balance the Force within himself, rather than externally. Blending both sides together to make the Yin Yan of Force inside his mind, and bringing balance.

Your statement however, does not In any way explain what the hell you weretalking about, I would like to know what you were going for there.

It's not defined well within the universe, and the canon of the material which does try to define it is questionable at best. But this is probably the best I can do:

Dark side practitioners imbalance the living force by corrupting to serve there own selfish intentions. In essence they corrupt the living force. So in their destruction the Jedi bring the force back to it's natural state.

So Vader does bring balance because he kills the last of the Sith and then dies, bringing the force back to it's natural state.

 

[GodzillaGuy92]

Glad to know I wasn't the only one reminded of The Amazing Spider-Man in a terrible way by the Ninja Turtles trailer. Anyway, here's hoping that next week's episode also addresses your statement about how the original Star Wars trilogy was never about destined heroes to begin with (not that I don't agree, but I'm eager to hear some elaboration on that point).

 

[Sergey Sund]

I always thought Anakins anger-metre was broken in the prequels. He was a nice guy - BAM - he's killing is friends and father figures. I thought it was the "power of the dark side of the force" that they were trying to depict with this crass reversal - turns out it was destiny?
Yeah. Pretty lame. But then, there was so much stuff wrong with those prequels ..... I just missed one fault of a dozen.

 

[maximara]

lets hope that does not happen to our BatVSSup movie.... or is it too late for that too?

Well, anything Batman vs Superman risks falling to the because 'he doesn't have super powers he actually has to use his brain and so can out think every super on the planet and as a result has ways to shut all of them down' mentality or basically Tower of Babel/Justice League: Doom. To some degree that is worse then they whole destiny thing.

 

[Britishfan]

Anyone else bored of hearing MovieBob bash the Amazing Spiderman? I understand that there is no reason for it to exist, but personally I found to be a better film and far more enjoyable than the trilogy that came before it.

OT: yes lazy writing in Hollywood is all too prevalent and sucks but in defence of the use of destiny in the new Stark Trek films. Does it not in some way mirror the knowledge of the audience going into the film? Everyone watching them has the knowledge that Kirk and Spock are close friends and work together on the best ship in the fleet and many die hard fans know all the details of their various foes and adventures together; Old Spock and the "destiny" element just seems to be an attempt to work that into the film itself. You're probably going to use a similar argument about everyone in the audience knowing that Anikin is going to become Vader for your thing about the Star Wars prequels next time.

 

[Jester076]

To: Michael Bay (and the people most responsible for his continued "career")
Re: Go F!@#$ Yourself

I would elaborate on this statement further if it wasn't doomed to deteriorate into a scathing rant that scrapes the bottom of my vocabulary. Suffice it to say that I simply use this one pixelated dimension of the internet to renew my express distaste and loathing for director Michael Bay and that leadless pencil he calls an imagination. Not because I believe this forum will facilitate any change or that somehow word will get back to the "artist" in question, but for the simple reason that it makes ME feel better. There aren't very many constructive ways of venting impotent rage, but this, at least, offers the opportunity for others to floor their responses. Director Michael Bay is a talent-less, soul-less, hack and were it possible to bring a lawsuit against him for the torture and rape of movie cameras, I would gladly participate. How many more intellectual properties are doomed to suffer at the hands of this uninspired cretin? Stop him before it's too late. *END RANT*

 

[Jester076]

(statement retracted)

 

[Abyss]

@Britishfan "Anyone else bored of hearing MovieBob bash the Amazing Spiderman? I understand that there is no reason for it to exist, but personally I found to be a better film and far more enjoyable than the trilogy that came before it."

I thought fans were more bored with MovieBob trashing Man of Steel. He's barely trashed Amazing Spiderman that much. I agree, Bob can be a little bit too obsessed with the comic books films which disappoint him, but I don't begrudge him for that. It just makes me wish I could have a conversation with him soon in my lifetime, because there are many ideas and topics I want to exchange with him.

Anyway, I look forward to Bob's assessment on what makes the Star Wars prequels a well done adaptation of the prophesied hero myth well. I can believe that Lucas gets the outline right, even though he screws it up with his unedited writing style and directorial choices. I find Anakin's character just as annoying as anyone, yet his violent stupidity is rather reminiscent of Achilles sulking in his tend over something very petty. If only Lucas explained how Anakin grew from someone younger than his future wife into someone a little older. The Force must have been strong with him, that it acted as super effective growth hormones.

As for Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: I think that they should have opted for a 1980s Japanese film approach to the subject matter. Set it in a realistically filthy part of New York, and have the Turtles be as brutal towards their enemies like the contestants from Bloodsport. That, and retain the dark humor from the original comic books, and take the cartoonish absurdity of the characters to 11. A director should go full-out blast with how crazy TMNT really is, and not rewrite it or water it down by any means. Try to make it really interesting, not a bore.

 

[Abyss]

And?

I found this response to be interesting. You can look at Stormfront or any other racist website to see the similar lines of reasoning when it comes to racist opinions.

The bottom line is that the racists who criticized Thor weren't wrong because of the racial history of the United States, but because that type of discrimination is wrong. Just throwing old types of discrimination in to reverse against white people is not a solution. It's just as bad as other types of racial discrimination.

I'm hopeful that the clear idiocy of people like Suey Park is going to make that clear to more and more people.

As I recall, in your Thor video, you praised Idris Elba's performance as Heimdall. Maybe the actor they picked for Shredder is just the actor that they thought was the best for the role. Maybe he just makes an awesome Shredder, at least according to the same people who made the turtles look like sloths.

MovieBob actually interacts on this forum?! I am astounded! When will he come again?

Back on topic, the reverse-discrimination arguments are getting pretty convoluted. I much prefer Shredder to be played by a ripped, intense Japanese actor who knows how to play the villain as a ruthless, skilled, slasher-prone thug that he is. However, as proven by Ben Kingsly's portrayal of The Mandarin, a Caucasian dude could pull off a radical interpretation of The Shredder if it has a purpose. Perhaps as an American corporate CEO in Japan whose business tactics and criminal activity were inspired by a combined fascination with 17th-Century Spanish traders in Tokugawa's Japan, and from certain bloodthirsty daimyos and Nija sects from that time period? Now THAT would be an interesting radical approach to The Shredder.

 

[Tim Ryan Scully]

The point stands firm: Destiny is meant to be a central theme, not a Deus Ex Machina.

 

[road_to_dawn]

I would have guessed that the Harry Potter series does the destiny thing pretty well. There is a prophecy but it is kept ambiguous, it's even possible that Harry Potter shoved his butt into another guy's destiny inadvertantly while himself struggling a whole lot with it.

Exactly, I was gonna say that. I don't remember if the movies got into it, but the books make a point of reiterating that our own choices govern our lives. Harry CHOSE to not go to Slytherin, Voldemort CHOSE one of two different babies to attack.

The movies go into the importance of choice somewhat, like Sirius' mini-speech to Harry in OotP, but I think it would've been driven home even better had they gotten the prophecy right. I can't really blame Bob for thinking that Harry is just another special snowflake when the prophecy is just one of many things the Harry Potter films got massively wrong. They latch onto Harry as "the Chosen One" and completely ignore that Neville could've just as easily been in his shoes had Voldemort gone after him instead of sending Bellatrix and others after his parents. They mention that Neville's parents were attacked, yes, but the significance of their attack is brushed aside. Also, it's not only a matter of which baby Voldemort chose to attack, but that he chose to attack them period. Had he just left them both alone and ignored the prophecy entirely he could have kept on growing in power and been virtually indestructible, if not for his pride and fear. The idea that Voldemort essentially made his own enemy is still there in the films ("he will mark him as his equal," etc), but I think taking Neville out of the equation makes that idea lose a lot of its intended weight. Destiny didn't choose Harry, Voldemort did, but the films dropped the ball.

 

[HalfTangible]

@Broken Record: Yes. But in this case 'record' registers in the context of a world record - more of a 'but i used to have the record!' thing: Repeated so often as to become tiresome.

I don't find it tiresome in this case, but you get the idea.;