The Big Picture: Destined for Disappointment, Part 2

[daibakuha]

It doesn't have to be between two sides to be balanced (there are multiple definitions of balance, your using a fairly narrow one that I don't think applies to what Lucas was going for). Think of it this way, think of the force as a see-saw, the light side practitioners practice the force without moving the see-saw. Dark Side users sit on one side of the see-saw and imbalance the whole thing. So eliminating the dark side brings the force back into it's natural state.

The difficulty of this is that by this definition Luke, the last man standing at the end of the original trilogy, is a dark-sider (he demonstrably lacks the attempted dispassion of even Obi-wan, much less obedience to the other rules of the Jedi order). If we go with your system the result of Anakin's actions was net imbalance.

Not following the Jedi Order doesn't make someone dark-sided. The Jedi don't allow those things because they CAN lead to the darkside. Not because they do.

 

[schwegburt]

Regardless of whether George Lucas spelled out if Anakin was the chosen one or not and whether Anakin did fulfill his destiny. George approached destiny in an interesting manner. It reminds me of the Oedipus Rex story. Destiny gets fulfilled, but in a completely unexpected way. Instead of a lazy point A to B path which a lot of Destiny movies follow, Star Wars meanders visitting C, then hangs out at point K before eventually ending at B.

I am convinced that George Lucas might be the best big picture idea man ever while at the same time the worst person to executive those ideas. I have listened to him explain his vision, and it is really good. Then I see his vision and it is really bad to mediocre, and yes I am including the original trilogy in there as mediocre. There I said it.

I'd agree with that. Lucas' ideas are innovative and intriguing. But he's not great at polish, editting, dialogue . . . ie - everything else. The first two Star Wars movies were great not just because of George Lucas. They rocked because he allowed people to challenge him and build upon his ideas so they became awesome. The prequels stank because George had too much autonomy when he's the last writer / director you want to give that to.

 

[Pescetarian]

"It rhymes thematically with the original trilogy"

Oh Bob, you with your crazy Plinkett references.

 

[Pat Hulse]

A lot of people are talking about how the prophecy does technically come true in the long run, but that still serves to drive the same point Bob is talking about.

All the Jedi that serve the prophecy do so because they assume in their complete arrogance that "bring balance to the Force" means "get rid of the Sith", because they see the Dark Side as something that disrupts balance, rather than the second half of a whole. It still subverts the ~~Destiny~~ trope by saying that just because someone is believed to change the world, it doesn't mean you get to decide how exactly that happens. In this case, the prophecy they assumed would bring about an age of peace did the exact opposite, because the Force deemed it necessary.

Additionally, it's worth pointing out that the Jedi Council is super-reluctant about Anakin from the very beginning. In "Phantom Menace", they outright refuse to allow Anakin to be trained due to his age and emotional attachments, but Qui-Gon goes against their wishes. They attempt to stop him on a technicality by saying he can't have two apprentices, but Obi-Wan says he's ready to become a Jedi Knight, which the Order can't deny. Once Qui-Gon kicks the bucket, they still refuse to train the boy and Obi-Wan says he'll do it. Yoda initially refuses to allow this, but Obi-Wan says he'll do it with or without the Order's consent, and in Yoda's position, he could have either forced Obi-Wan into exile and allowed Anakin to be trained outside of the Order, where they would have no influence or control, or they could just give in and at least have a hand in shaping Anakin's future. The Order was dragged kicking and screaming into allowing Anakin's training.

Then during the Clone Wars, Anakin was primarily made a Jedi Knight due to the fact that they were at war and they needed as many Knights as possible. Then, in "Revenge of the Sith", he was only allowed on the Council after Palpatine forced the issue and they decided that Anakin could be a helpful spy since they finally started to suspect Palpatine and needed someone that they knew Palpatine trusted.

Saying the Council was just blindly trusting the prophecy is probably overstating it, but the prophecy definitely did influence their decisions quite a bit.

If anyone was blinded by the prophecy, it was Obi-Wan. So much so that when he turned Anakin into Torso-Boy, he ranted about how he was supposed to be the Chosen One, reinforcing the fact that Obi-Wan never even considered the possibility that what he assumed the prophecy meant was merely misinterpreted.

Also, that dialogue pretty much confirms that this was something Lucas had intended. I think people give Lucas way too little credit. He's very good at big ideas and world-building, but inept at dialogue and pacing (kind of like Tolkien). I have little doubt that he intended this to be a subversion of the Chosen One trope where the Chosen One turns out to be a harbinger of near-total-destruction.

 

[SilverStuddedSquirre]

Except killing the bad guy takes out the last of the Sith, which actually unbalances the Force by making it too lopsided on the good side. Doesn't it?

Nope. Anakin kills the last Sith and then dies, leaving Luke the only trained force user with any real training and ability to develop his powers beyond the instinctive probability-tilting that half the galaxy has.

Luke's not white-hat, he's grey. Over the course of the series he rejects the light-side path of absolute discipline and self-denial in the service of religion in favor of seeking vengeance and trying to get a girlfriend (in the EU books, it gets carried one further and the succeeds at getting a girlfriend, and her being actively evil doesn't really bother him), following his emotional impulses to let his desire for a father win out of the welfare of the galaxy, etc. Then he rejects the dark-side path of seeking power as an end in itself by rejecting both his dad's and the emperor's offers of apprenticeship, and actually converts a dark Jedi away from power-seeking in favor of self-sacrifice.

In a world where all sorcerers have to choose Lawful Good or Lawful Evil, Anakin eventually said 'fuck it' and went with chaotic evil, wiping the slate and letting his son go NN where he left off.

Ta-da, balance.

(Sure, Luke sorta PREFERS the light-side in the same way the average neutral person will always pick good over evil when nothing is at stake, but when his friends or family are at risk he'll take vengeance and directed rage every time. Even his aid of the rebellion is more rooted in the fact that his friends are on that side and the cops have harassed him a few times, remember at the beginning of a new hope his life goal was to sign up to be an IMPERIAL pilot, he has no actual moral issue with the empire itself, which seems to maintain peaceful order just fine.)

THANK you! You understand! Luke balances the Force WITHIN HIMSELF, which is the true will of the Force, personal balance. This is why Jedi and Sith BOTH must die. Dungeons and Dragons: making things easier to intemperate for 3 and a Half editions.

 

[Hutzpah Chicken]

So, who actually thinks that anyone will create a story without the destiny schlock?

 

[K12]

I was hoping this was going to be what Bob was talking about last week, the idea of destiny and predestination makes people act like idiots.

I also thought the whole "bringing balance to the force" thing would imply that he would become evil. To start with there were hundreds of Jedi and only 2 Sith. Afterwards there were 2 Jedi and 2 Sith... seems pretty balanced to me!

 

[Olas]

Except Lucas has come flat out and said in an interview that Vader kills the last sith and brings balance to the force with his son...

edit:


Go about to about 12:40 (can't remember how to do the youtube time thing)

Nice try though.

I think even with this in mind there's still something to the idea of a prophesy being true, but in a way completely different from how everybody was expecting. And the stuff about the Jedi failing because they trusted the prophesy too much is still a perfectly valid interpretation. Just because a prophesy about you is true, that doesn't mean you can't make false assertions based on it that lead to your downfall, kinda like the story of Oedipus the King.

edit: also, I fixed that video for you.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

But the prophecy does come true, from a certain point of view. Anakin unwittingly brings balance and peace to the force by playing a key instrumental role in both the destruction of the Jedi Knights and the Sith Lords. It's the final chapter of an ongoing conflict that has been going on for so very long that nobody alive even questions the Jedi practice of recruiting and indoctrinating child soldiers. Quite a lot of limbs get sliced off before Luke Skywalker comes to realisation that true peace can only be achieved through disarmament and nonviolence. He then sets an example, showing that he is willing to suffer and even die for his beliefs, which inspires Darth Vader to turn against the Emperor.

 

[TWEWYFan]

Really cool theory! I think it's giving Lucas too much credit to wonder if it was intentional in any way but the subtext itself is still really interesting. You know if they were suddenly announcing that you were going to be heading up the new Star Wars movies instead I'd probably feel a lot better about them.

 

[tzimize]

As always Bob, an interesting picture.

Thanks for blessing us with your rants about stuff. I enjoy it every time

 

[Joos]

Well, as far as I'm concerned, Anakin did bring balance to the force.

As we can see in at the beginning of episode 1, there are a handful of Sith Lords and hundeds of Jedi. At the start of episode 4, there are a handful of both Sith and Jedi. Balance achieved.

 

[KazeAizen]

I am convinced that George Lucas might be the best big picture idea man ever while at the same time the worst person to executive those ideas. I have listened to him explain his vision, and it is really good. Then I see his vision and it is really bad to mediocre, and yes I am including the original trilogy in there as mediocre. There I said it.

I think George is honestly something special. I think he gets a lot of undeserved hate these days but the guy was a visionary. He scared the piss out of everyone else with his master work back in the 70s with people thinking there is no way in hell it would work. Now here we are. It was probably not a good idea for him to write or direct the prequels but I will give him this. By the third one he seemed pretty competent at directing action scenes, big set pieces, etc. I mean say what you want but I personally think episode 3 has some of the best action scenes in sci fi movies. I mean for one you can actually see it. He's also not exactly a monster. I mean if his worst offense to humanity is revisionism of the originals and making the prequels that is not exactly cause for execution. I mean dude has donated a shit tillion dollars to charity and in his interviews he seems like a nice enough guy.

 

[teisjm]

I always found it ironic, that Obi-Wan is supprised that the prophecy didn't work in the jedi's favour.
Obi-Wan cries out that Anakin was supposed to be the one who should bring balance to the force when he realises he's turned dark side, but turning darkside is accomplishing just that, bringing balance.
He slaugthers the jedi, or at least plays a part in it, and only Yoda and Obi-Wan are left alive.
2 jedis, 2 siths, Balance.

 

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

Oh come on, you said the chosen one stuff rhymed with the originals and you [i/]didn't[/i] throw in this clip?


For shame, Bob, for shame.

Otherwise awesome stuff even if I do disagree on Star Trek.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

I've often said that the Prequels had glimpses of brilliance in amongst all the mess, and the whole idea of turning the the destiny, chosen one thing on it's head was once such glimpse.

 

[Saltyk]

I always figured the whole "Balance to the Force" was the Jedi misreading the prophecy.

At the start of the prequels, there were hundreds of Jedi and maybe three Sith.
Sound balanced?

At the end there were just two of each.
That's balance.

Now, one could argue that the Dark Side was in power, so it wasn't balanced. But the Light Side had been in power for an unknown amount of time. Thus, the Dark Side being in power was bringing balance to the Force.

Also, Luke is Anakin's son, and he found a balance between Light and Dark. Thus, true balance in the Force.

So, yeah, that was always my take on it. I do like seeing the movies as a deconstruction of the "Destiny" Trope, though.

 

[Adventurer2626]

Interesting Meta: Prophecies are for rubes. Even if unintentional, I dig it.

 

[Scars Unseen]

I like Jolee Bindo's take on destiny:

 

[immortalfrieza]

Well, as my dad managed to point out to me one time, the government and society established in the Prequel Trilogy were meant to fail in the first place because of how badly they were set-up if you actually take the time to analyze it. And unlike multiple other people who were supposed to be intelligent, including the jedi, Palpatine saw the loop holes and you know the rest.

While Bob's analysis with the whole destiny issue put's a whole other spin on things, Palpatine would have succeeded no matter what, and Anikin was just a fluke that happened to make his plans become even more successful than he originally thought.

I'd say this is what the real effect of the entire prophecy was. The Old Republic was a stagnant, ineffective, and hopelessly corrupt government that shouldn't have lasted anywhere near as long as it did, and only did because of the Jedi's obsession with keeping an blatantly obviously worthless government going at any cost for fear of the anarchy that would result. The old Jedi and Sith Orders both arrogantly believed that the way they do things was perfect despite all evidence to the contrary and stubbornly refused to grow or adapt to fix their problems in any real way. The fall of the Old Republic resulted in several decades of totalitarian rule by fear that served as an example to the galaxy of what NOT to do. By fulfilling the prophecy, Anakin brought balance not only to the Force, but to the galaxy at large by eliminating the old guard and leaving room for a new, better system to take it's place, one that couldn't exist as long as the Old Republic, Jedi, and Sith Orders still existed.

Of course, the EU throwing all of this out the window in favor of just rehashing the same old story ruined this. Disney just has to take advantage of this potential this time.

I agree. Over the years I've come to form the opinion that Star Wars became successful despite Lucas' best efforts, not because of them. The fact that the prequels subvert the whole "chosen one/destiny" plot device (albeit in a ham-handed fashion) was probably just an accident. I doubt that it was stylistically designed to be that way. Bob is perhaps giving George Lucas a little too much credit.

Opinion nothing, it's a fact. One of the biggest misconceptions about Star Wars is that George Lucas was responsible for it. The truth is that almost everything in the original trilogy George Lucas tried to suggest for it was shot down and replaced by somebody much more competent that Lucas ended up getting the credit for. So if George Lucas is the Father of Star Wars, he's the deadbeat absentee Dad who one only ever sees when he wants to beg for money but everybody somehow thinks is the greatest ever. The prequels are what happen when George Lucas has pretty much complete creative control, with nobody around who has the balls and power to check him, nobody to slap down his terrible ideas.