The Big Picture: Dumbsday, Part 1 - The Death of Superman

[TheMemoman]

This is why I hate Superman. Everything is some cheap shit.

His powers are super laziness and super convenience for the writers. Back on topic, to really sum it up: A monster came to Earth a punched Superman to death.

Cheap shit.

 

[TheFederation]

Well, At least we got Steel out of this, i like Steel

 

[twosage]

This is why I hate Superman. Everything is some cheap shit.

His powers are super laziness and super convenience for the writers. Back on topic, to really sum it up: A monster came to Earth a punched Superman to death.

Cheap shit.

Hello friend. Like you, I too once hated Superman because of the lazy writing and cheap shit powers rendered all conflict meaningless, but then I discovered "It's Just Some Random Guy". He did a series of videos called "After Hours" that actually turned me overnight into a dedicated Superman fan. (The gimmick is that the heroes (in the form of action figures) typically argue over whose movie is better, but it unfolds into a broader narrative.)

I don't want to spoil the story, but let me just say that Superman's internal conflicts can be profoundly interesting in the hands of a skilled storyteller. Ultimately, Superman can do anything he wants, but what happens when doing the "right thing", isn't the same as doing the "good thing"? What effect does Superman have on the world, and what effect should he have?

Obviously, this was just a series of videos on YouTube of a dude putting voices over video of him wiggling toys (it may take you a while to get past that), but it showed me that Superman has the potential to be a very interesting character in his own right. YMMV.

 

[CrazyGirl17]

First off, happy 200th episode Bob! Second, it's nice to see you finally tackling this milestone event... which apparently isn't as good as everyone thought at the time.

Personality, I didn't get into comics until the late 90's/early 2000's, so I missed out on the crap comics of the 90's. Yet I have a bit of curiosity about those comics and how they turned out (But seriously, fuck comic book speculators).

 

[twosage]

First off, happy 200th episode Bob! Second, it's nice to see you finally tackling this milestone event... which apparently isn't as good as everyone thought at the time.

Personality, I didn't get into comics until the late 90's/early 2000's, so I missed out on the crap comics of the 90's. Yet I have a bit of curiosity about those comics and how they turned out (But seriously, fuck comic book speculators).

The 1990's wasn't as universally blowful as it seems in retrospect. One of my favorite Spider-Man stories is the Clone Saga (or at least the later parts of it). Unlike the other replacement heroes on the video, Ben Reilly didn't reflect "the Spider-Man people wanted", but rather, "the Spider-Man the editors wanted". Unmarried, unshackled by guilt and responsibility, and so on. Ultimately, several retcons later, the editors finally got the Peter they always wanted.

Reilly's most interesting effect, though, was on Peter himself. I remember very vividly how the two developed a brotherly relationship that both had always wanted (seeing as Peter was an only child). Fascinating and heartwarming stuff for a time. But the "official story" is that no one liked Ben Reilly or the Clone Saga. Baby boomers and Gen-Xers froth at the mouth if anyone suggests there was merit to the Saga or that it deserves to be considered for adaptation. Oh well.

As for speculators, the speculation bubble directly led to Marvel selling off movie rights that ultimately kindled the comic book movie renaissance we currently enjoy, so I wouldn't be so harsh.

 

[Nalgas D. Lemur]

This is why I hate Superman. Everything is some cheap shit.

His powers are super laziness and super convenience for the writers. Back on topic, to really sum it up: A monster came to Earth a punched Superman to death.

Cheap shit.

Hello friend. Like you, I too once hated Superman because of the lazy writing and cheap shit powers rendered all conflict meaningless, but then I discovered "It's Just Some Random Guy". He did a series of videos called "After Hours" that actually turned me overnight into a dedicated Superman fan. (The gimmick is that the heroes (in the form of action figures) typically argue over whose movie is better, but it unfolds into a broader narrative.)

I don't want to spoil the story, but let me just say that Superman's internal conflicts can be profoundly interesting in the hands of a skilled storyteller. Ultimately, Superman can do anything he wants, but what happens when doing the "right thing", isn't the same as doing the "good thing"? What effect does Superman have on the world, and what effect should he have?

Obviously, this was just a series of videos on YouTube of a dude putting voices over video of him wiggling toys (it may take you a while to get past that), but it showed me that Superman has the potential to be a very interesting character in his own right. YMMV.

My favorite recommendation for showing Superman as an interesting character is Superman: Secret Identity, which is finally back in print. It's a standalone story that doesn't take place in the main DC universe, but it deals with him first and foremost as a person and a man rather than as a superhero. Not surprisingly it's written by Kurt Busiek, who's also known for doing similar things with stuff like Marvels and Astro City.

 

[Not G. Ivingname]

On Justice League animated series, Doomsday made an appearance. I have a feeling the writers had as little love for the character as Bob did, because Doomsday didn't run into the normal league, he ran into the "alternate universe team of well meaning tyrants" version, the Justice Lords. So, instead of giving the guy a good fight, Justice Lord Superman immediately used his heat vision to lobotomize Doomsday into a coma.

Also, the Justice League's version of the death of Superman MUCH better. It wasn't a random supervillian we have never heard of before, it was TOYMAM. Instead of having "everyone would be sad," the death of Superman brought up the question of "what the @#$^ is the world going to do without him?"

Spoiler

It is eventually revealed that Superman was sent to the future, he wasn't really dead.

 

[Chaos999]

In your video you are showing Superman Doomsday. I know this episode is about the comic but what I am interested in is what did you thing about that movie.
I really liked it.

 

[CrazyGirl17]

First off, happy 200th episode Bob! Second, it's nice to see you finally tackling this milestone event... which apparently isn't as good as everyone thought at the time.

Personality, I didn't get into comics until the late 90's/early 2000's, so I missed out on the crap comics of the 90's. Yet I have a bit of curiosity about those comics and how they turned out (But seriously, fuck comic book speculators).

The 1990's wasn't as universally blowful as it seems in retrospect. One of my favorite Spider-Man stories is the Clone Saga (or at least the later parts of it). Unlike the other replacement heroes on the video, Ben Reilly didn't reflect "the Spider-Man people wanted", but rather, "the Spider-Man the editors wanted". Unmarried, unshackled by guilt and responsibility, and so on. Ultimately, several retcons later, the editors finally got the Peter they always wanted.

Reilly's most interesting effect, though, was on Peter himself. I remember very vividly how the two developed a brotherly relationship that both had always wanted (seeing as Peter was an only child). Fascinating and heartwarming stuff for a time. But the "official story" is that no one liked Ben Reilly or the Clone Saga. Baby boomers and Gen-Xers froth at the mouth if anyone suggests there was merit to the Saga or that it deserves to be considered for adaptation. Oh well.

As for speculators, the speculation bubble directly led to Marvel selling off movie rights that ultimately kindled the comic book movie renaissance we currently enjoy, so I wouldn't be so harsh.

Ah, okay then, thanks for the history lesson.

My big problem with the Clone Saga is that they kept flip-flopping on who the clone was, because they wanted to stretch the story out and make more money. I think the story could have been handled well under the right hands... but Marvel really dropped the ball with this one.

Other than that, the late 90's comics were apparently better handled, so there's something, I guess. Now if only DC would take the hint that "darker and edgier" is not always the way to go...

 

[Daaaah Whoosh]

I don't know, some random guy just coming to Earth and punching Superman to death sounds like it could be pretty powerful to me. But I guess this was before 9/11, so I assume no one thought of the shock and sense of powerlessness everyone would've felt? Maybe an arc where someone like Batman goes on a killing spree out of vengeance, but then gets the Justice League involved in a drawn-out war that solves nothing? Or maybe some other superheroes descend into alcoholism and retire because if Superman can be beat, anyone can? And what about the enormous power vacuum? Maybe some superheroes could show a darker, more ambitious side as they tried to claw their way to the top. If Superman was killed, I'm sure everyone would start getting more critical of everyone else's weaknesses, and even more so their own. Long-standing super-friendships could be torn apart as everyone loses faith in each other.

I don't know, it just seems to me like this would have a really big effect that they could have milked for years. But I suppose next week we'll hear about how they pissed that away too.


Oh, and congratulations, Bob. Very well done, I don't think I'd be able to keep at anything for 200 weeks.

 

[Trishbot]

For the record, the "replacement Batman", Azrael, went on to have one of my favorite comic runs of all time (at least until issue 50 brought in editorial changes that KILLED the series and the character afterward).

Jean-Paul Valley utterly, entirely, miserably failed as Batman. He failed so hard Batman had to come and take the mantle back. So where do you go from there?

... You make a great character out of it. One defined entirely by his failure to live up to his own heroic dreams and aspirations. At his lowest point, he forges one of the best supporting cast in comics, where his only friends are a reformed(?) villainess with unclear motivations and an alcoholic former psychiatrist. This ragtag group of individuals basically work on rebuild all their lives and becoming their own people... and Azrael finally becomes great, making up for his failures as Batman by doing everything possible to earn the favor and respect of the heroes he disappointed.

That includes a basically one-man war against the very evil Order that created him in the first place, a task that also served to permanently burn the bridge between the man he was and the man he would become.

Basically, even though the character was born from a terrible stunt and was intended to be despised, he went on to become a pretty amazing character I STILL wish was around (he's got a "replacement hero" of his own running around in his stead as well.)

And, well, I admit, I still have some love for the 90's AzBat costume. The full-face mask in particular.

 

[Zombie Badger]

Knowing DC they'll probably try to adapt this story for a Man of Steel sequel or Justice League film at some point.

 

[Darth_Payn]

Happy 200th episode, Bob! And it's almost a week after my birthday, too!

On Justice League animated series, Doomsday made an appearance. I have a feeling the writers had as little love for the character as Bob did, because Doomsday didn't run into the normal league, he ran into the "alternate universe team of well meaning tyrants" version, the Justice Lords. So, instead of giving the guy a good fight, Justice Lord Superman immediately used his heat vision to lobotomize Doomsday into a coma.

Also, the Justice League's version of the death of Superman MUCH better. It wasn't a random supervillian we have never heard of before, it was TOYMAM. Instead of having "everyone would be sad," the death of Superman brought up the question of "what the @#$^ is the world going to do without him?"

Spoiler

It is eventually revealed that Superman was sent to the future, he wasn't really dead.

OMG, YES! Those were great episodes, with so many classic moments! Superman having none of his powers so he survives by his wits, driving around in a sweet-ass caddy, taming a pack of wolves, forging a sword, and running into Vandal Savage. As with the Justice Lords, I liked the two Batmen fighting (physically and philosophically), and Arkham Asylum finally being a place that gets results.

OT: What Bob described sounds way better than the direction Death of Superman went in. You want a great "Last" Superman story? Bob already showed "Whatever Happened to The Man of Tomorrow?" by Alan Moore and Curt Swan, but there's also All-Star Superman by Grant Morrison and Frank Quietly. I also liked the "Replacement Hero" angle, stating the thematic side of making John Walker (who's an OK guy) Captain America and Jean-Paul Valley into Batman (as a visual middle finger to people who want Batman to be like the Punisher). I hope you keep it going in next week's episode, since both Batman and Cap had recent, and positively received, replacement characters: Richard Grayson and Bucky Barnes.

 

[Vault Citizen]

200th episode? Has it really been almost four years since since you started this show? Time really does fly.

 

[JimB]

Congratulations on the landmark, Mr. Chipman, and thank you for a consistently interesting program.

Were the comics at least better than the movie Superman: Doomsday?

I would say no. While Superman: Doomsday is a dumb movie that, like Frankenstein's monster, is obviously stitched clumsily together from the pieces that have been sawed off of a lot of entirely different component corpses, at least Lex Luthor is involved in the plot and has a role to play. The Death of Superman saga...you can probably find scans online to verify this for yourself, so take my word or don't when I say Doomsday comes out of literal nowhere to kill Superman. He's buried underground like the monster cultists are trying to resurrect in a bad D&D game, he digs his way out, and like the aforementioned dumb D&D monster, has no mind or motivation. He can't even speak. He just walks around killing things because raaaar, and over the course of seven issues of comics, he beats the shit out of Superman without Superman ever being able to effectively harm him until the very last issue of the arc when the book remembers oh yeah, Doomsday has to die when Superman does or else Doomsday will kill everyone.

I think Mr. Chipman brings up that the final issue of the arc is nothing but splash pages because it indicates exactly how little story is being told here. There's no need for sequential, paneled art, because it is just two dudes smacking each other in the face in the name of spectacle. There's no nuance or subtlety, just punch punch punch dead.

The story of Superman: Doomsday may be confusing and dumb, but at least it exists. The Death of Superman story is more like the game I used to play with all my He-Man toys, where the good guys would stand in a line facing the line of bad guys, and then each hero would beat up the bad guy in front of him.

 

[Canyoureadmydeadpan]

As someone who used to tune in every week and even show episodes to friends at social gatherings, I'm done with you Bob. After finally looking at your twitter (btw I don't use twitter and only discovered your twitter after the issue with zoe quinn/chelsea emerged) it is clear you have no respect for your fan base and are wrapped up in the same kind of behavior you condemn. You have no respect for your viewership, and before you go on a name calling tirade of how sexist/mysoginst/troll/any buzzword insult-of-the-day part of what I liked was you had a different viewpoint and backed your views on the escapist. Then you made all the twitter claims about your fans.

I'm done.

 

[faefrost]

Were the comics at least better than the movie "Superman: Doomsday"? I thought that movie was a bit lack-luster, to be honest.

That animated movie stands head and shoulders ABOVE the comics. Death of Superman the comic was more or less Superman fights the Hulk and loses. There was no story whatsoever. It was literally Superman and "not Hulk" punching each other across 4 issues of 4 different books. With inconsistent art inconsistent editing and nothing even vaguely resembling a story. About the only mildly interesting thing about it was the D list Justice League shows up led by Booster Gold and gets the everliving crap kicked out of themselves. and even then the only people on the team that anyone would might know are Booster Gold, Blue Beetle and Guy Gardiner (not green Lantern Guy Gardiner mind you. Just Guy Gardiner) Yeah this was the best of the bunch.

 

[twosage]

First off, happy 200th episode Bob! Second, it's nice to see you finally tackling this milestone event... which apparently isn't as good as everyone thought at the time.

Personality, I didn't get into comics until the late 90's/early 2000's, so I missed out on the crap comics of the 90's. Yet I have a bit of curiosity about those comics and how they turned out (But seriously, fuck comic book speculators).

The 1990's wasn't as universally blowful as it seems in retrospect. One of my favorite Spider-Man stories is the Clone Saga (or at least the later parts of it). Unlike the other replacement heroes on the video, Ben Reilly didn't reflect "the Spider-Man people wanted", but rather, "the Spider-Man the editors wanted". Unmarried, unshackled by guilt and responsibility, and so on. Ultimately, several retcons later, the editors finally got the Peter they always wanted.

Reilly's most interesting effect, though, was on Peter himself. I remember very vividly how the two developed a brotherly relationship that both had always wanted (seeing as Peter was an only child). Fascinating and heartwarming stuff for a time. But the "official story" is that no one liked Ben Reilly or the Clone Saga. Baby boomers and Gen-Xers froth at the mouth if anyone suggests there was merit to the Saga or that it deserves to be considered for adaptation. Oh well.

As for speculators, the speculation bubble directly led to Marvel selling off movie rights that ultimately kindled the comic book movie renaissance we currently enjoy, so I wouldn't be so harsh.

My big problem with the Clone Saga is that they kept flip-flopping on who the clone was, because they wanted to stretch the story out and make more money. I think the story could have been handled well under the right hands... but Marvel really dropped the ball with this one.

Very much so. While I'm overall a defender of the Saga, I don't pretend that it was handled at all well. The individual writers did what they could (some hit and some missed), but with different levels of editors with different ideas and orders that changed month to month, it was destined to be a mess (although the same could be said about pretty much every monthly title in the big two nowadays). It's why I've given up reading long-runners altogether, and will only read short runs or self-contained stories... but that's just the bitterness of a long time reader.

If anyone is interested in the whole behind the scenes gory details from (some of) the creators involved, there was a 35 part chronicle of how the whole Clone Saga unfolded here: http://lifeofreillyarchives.blogspot.com/

I'm not sure how interesting it would be to anyone who doesn't remember the comics they reference throughout, but it's a fantastic read. The "creative" process was... well, indescribable.

 

[shirkbot]

Supes faced in that scenario, did what he always did... he fought on, not out of hope of winning but out of desperation to stop the beast before it destroyed everything he held dear. He died for that.

I'm sorry, but this is going to bug me if I don't go ahead and ask: How WAS Doomsday prevented from just killing everyone ever if he managed to defeat what was, for all intents and purposes, the most powerful superhero on the planet? That aside, I agree with you that the whole thing is idiotic since they just bring Superman back at the end, but that tends to be a problem for comics in general. Death must weep constantly in the Comicverse.

OT: Congrats Bob on 200 episodes.

 

[twosage]

Were the comics at least better than the movie "Superman: Doomsday"? I thought that movie was a bit lack-luster, to be honest.

Lackluster is a good word for it. Most of the plot was confused and convenient (as well as relying pretty heavily on goofy Silver Age stuff like the super androids or whatever they're called). That said: The scene where Lois introduces herself to the Kents, and neither of them know how to properly express/suppress their grief is just stellar. Manly tears.