Have we ever had so much cause to identify with stories that are about intelligent people? Now that most knowledge that most people will ever wish to know of is ever only a Google search away via the internet, isn't easier than any other point of history to feel just a little smart and knowledgeable about something?ThrobbingEgo said:It's interesting that you come to that conclusion, considering we have a long history in the west of associating intelligence with evil.
And when these sorts of villains do appear they're increasingly being defeated by heroes that are more quick-witted, resourceful and intelligent then they themselves are.ThrobbingEgo said:The obsessive mad scientist, the scheming Machiavellian, the malevolent trickster. Usually the introverted loner who shouts 'FOOLS!' and starts monologuing isn't the good guy...
I didn't mention Superman because his first foray into the modern superhero genre a bit of a flop. His primary nemesis started off as an evil mad scientist, but it was only when he was reinvented as a scheming, power-hungry and morally bankrupt capitalist did he really break out and capture the public's attention.ThrobbingEgo said:Superman has Lex Luthor, Batman has R'as and Scarecrow, Spiderman has like 16 villains who have PhDs.
Oh Lord this is the best idea ever!teamcharlie said:Here's one immediate, easy way to make Batman new again: Adam West him the fuck up. Make him an archaic, ridiculous symbol of oldschool machismo, bring back the sexy 60s-looking ladies to fawn over and/or catwoman him, give him one of his sillier opponents to fight as a B-plot with waves of implausible goons and make everything as goofy as possible. That sounds like several gallons of fun in my book. Hell, I'll just bet that Jon Hamm would jump at the chance to be Bruce Wayne for pennies on the dollar.
Yes but Superman and Lex Luthor are Intellectual equals Same as Batman and Ra's and same as Spiderman and Green Goblin.ThrobbingEgo said:It's interesting that you come to that conclusion, considering we have a long history in the west of associating intelligence with evil. The obsessive mad scientist, the scheming Machiavellian, the malevolent trickster. Usually the introverted loner who shouts 'FOOLS!' and starts monologuing isn't the good guy...Paradoxrifts said:That's a fair call. But lets look at the superheroes that have managed to remain popular long enough into the current period to break out onto the silver screen and make it big in Hollywood.
Batman - A very intelligent bat-themed ninja, who masquerades as a trust fund raised billionaire playboy.
Ironman - A second-generation genius, who is not only scientist but also engineered his own suit of powered armour.
The Hulk - Yet another tormented scientific genius, who turns into a literally unstoppable green rage monster when he loses his cool.
Thor - An arrogant and obnoxious bully of an overgrown child finally grows up, who was and still is almost as thick as the hammer he wields. Spends almost all of his screen time between Thor and The Avengers trying to redeem his far more intelligent, slightly-deranged younger brother.
Spiderman - A nerdy, shy and awkward high school boy is blessed with awesome after being accidentally bitten by a special spider that grants superpowers.
Seeing a common thread that links this lot together? Only X-men (Read: Mostly Wolverine, but on the other hand they did heavily feature Magneto and Professor X who are definitely no slouches when it comes down to intelligence. But mostly Wolverine.) and Captain America really seem to buck the trend when it comes to the modern superhero genre's obsession with smarts.
Superman has Lex Luthor, Batman has R'as and Scarecrow, Spiderman has like 16 villains who have PhDs.
Funny you should mention that in this thread. In Kingdom come, it appears Bruce Wayne doesn't want to help Superman. He then offers that Captain Marvel, whose power in on par with Superman's, and other super villains, are about to engage in war. What, he asks, is a mortal supposed to do about that. Happily, with some mechanized armor, he figures it out.Britisheagle said:I just loved the JLA comics growing up, especially Kingdom Come, and would love to see a film that could recreate the same feeling. But at this point I feel Batman is being milked and am quite frankly getting tired of him.
In the Dominus Saga (1998 triangle 21-36) Superman was split into Golden Age (Superman, The Man Of Steel), Silver Age (Adventures of Superman), Bronze Age (Action comics), and 2999 (Superman) versions.shadowmagus said:Alright, I'll give you Martian Manhunter, but even then what he is doing isn't so much detective work as it is reading the minds of other people.maximara said:Actually, the Martian Manhunter (J'onn J'onzz)'s human identity was a detective, the Barry Allen Flash was a "police scientist" (later revealed to be a forensic scientist), and the Question was an investigative journalist so they ARE half-decent detectivesshadowmagus said:1) I actually agree with Bob that maybe it is time to put Batman away for awhile and lets try making GOOD (and I emphasis that word) movies for the other characters in the DC canon.
2) I disagree that Batman has nothing to bring to the table. The truth is that in many cases, Batman is capable of doing what the others heroes can't or won't do. Make no mistake, in that little list of super humans Bob rattled off, none of them are a half-decent detective and I wouldn't trust any of them to do any kind of real infiltration. Sorry Bob, but just because you're tired of him doesn't mean he isn't one of the most important parts of the Justice League for more then just "being Batman".
Ironically even in the comics, Batman's detective skills are near the bottom of 'things we effectively use' pile and sometimes he comes off as stupid. Tower of Babel saga aka Justice League: Doom‎ case in point--you have this database on your fellow Leaguers and you do NOT have a system that tells you if the files are accessed without your knowledge in place? Let the face palming begin.
As for "real infiltration" the Martian Manhunter was doing it for decades (pretending to be a human) and via his telepathic powers could impersonate a person the crooks KNOW...something Batman could have a problem with. Wally West Flash was able to pretend to be Barry's arch enemy Professor Zoom (Reverse Flash) for a while and in the comics Superman has taken on MANY identities (usually without knowing who he really is) and fooling everyone in the process! In the comics he has been the President of the United States (Action Comics Vol 1 #371), a professional wrestler (Action Comics Vol 1 #372), Public Enemy #1 (Action Comics Vol 1 #374), and I think you get the idea. And all these successful impersonations were him without actually trying!
I think the real reason for Batman being the go to DC character is that of all the main members of the League he is the cheapest to put off in terms of abilities (his gadgets are another story).
Tower of Babel was a case of writer-induced stupidity. Doesn't count.
Flash impersonating an arch-nemesis with essentially the same power set and costume. Not much of a stretch there if you get down to brass tacks.
As for Superman, where to begin. All three of your examples are from Silver Age, and everyone knows Silver Age Superman could do anything. Find me an example of that post-crisis. Second, this is the same canon from which sprung the idea that his glasses were magical so no one could recognize who he was when the glasses we off. Again, not his own skills.
I think your missing the point, and getting it all at once. Flash has outplayed a cosmic mind in chess by running his mind at superspeed. He also has the testing knowledge of a scientist. Martian Manhunter has proven more than once his ability as a detective, and whats more can READ MINDS taking out a part of Batman's appeal. Wonder Woman did at one point lose her powers, and work as a Detective. I'm not going to discuss her success in her endeavors there for a point I'll make below.shadowmagus said:1) I actually agree with Bob that maybe it is time to put Batman away for awhile and lets try making GOOD (and I emphasis that word) movies for the other characters in the DC canon.
2) I disagree that Batman has nothing to bring to the table. The truth is that in many cases, Batman is capable of doing what the others heroes can't or won't do. Make no mistake, in that little list of super humans Bob rattled off, none of them are a half-decent detective and I wouldn't trust any of them to do any kind of real infiltration. Sorry Bob, but just because you're tired of him doesn't mean he isn't one of the most important parts of the Justice League for more then just "being Batman".
It's weird... I didn't know who Chuck Norris was before the meme, and whenever I tried to ask about, everyone got all offended and said Chuck Norris would kick my ass without actually answering my question. So for the longest time, I only had these facts to go on, even though I knew they were gross exaggerations.Zachary Amaranth said:Maybe? Maybe?
'Course, we drove Batman into the ground well before either was a thing, and neither were worth driving into the ground in the first place. Hell, the Chuck Norris craze was the failure to recognise a parody.MB202 said:Bob mentioned this in one of his Junk Draw episodes, in that we drove Boba Fett and Chuck Norris into the ground, now we're doing the same with Batman... I guess that WAS enough to fill out and episode episode.
Now, I thin kthe big thing with Batman and filling an episode is that circumstances have changed.
Much like his career.MB202 said:even though I knew they were gross exaggerations.