The Big Picture: Everything Means Something

Spyre2k

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Apr 9, 2013
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You mentioned the old Batman debate. Those who try to say Batman just does it as an excuse to vent his anger or intentionally lets the criminals run lose don't really know the character.

One of the common themes with Batman is he does what's right but not always what's popular. He fights a battle to stop criminals in his city and after apprehending them returns them to the proper authorities. This includes Arkham Asylum which many have pointed out is like a revolving door for criminals and since Batman knows this he does nothing to enable his fantasy life to continue. But Batman does not see himself as judge and jury which is why he simply apprehends criminals.

The old build a factory and give everyone a job would eliminate crime is a fallacy. First is assumes that crime and poverty are directly linking, which studies have shown they are not. Poverty doesn't cause crime, but crime can cause poverty when people lose their lively hoods due to criminal acts, like riots burning down a shop and most insurance policies don't cover riots.

Plus if it was so easy to eliminate poverty then why does it still exist? The governments of most first world countries are richer than Bruce Wayne so why don't they just build a factory and give everyone who wants a job one? Oh probably because the world is not as simple as that and trying to so say it is, even in a fictional comic book world, would break the readers suspension of disbelief.

But even though it's not possible to eliminate it you can do things to help. Bruce Wayne is very popular and well liked by the citizens of Gotham because he is major Philanthropist. He is often attending charity and human rights events when something goes wrong and he has to slip into the Batman suit. He does it because he cares about people but also knows there is only so much he can do as Bruce Wayne.

The thing I think a lot of people who try to psycho analysis Batman as being a violent thug don't understand, or choose to ignore is something I think that was best stated in the Dark Knight movie, "Alfred Pennyworth: Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn. " Some criminals just like the idea of rebelling, of causing chaos, of revenge, or any other number of issues not related to having a steady job.

Just look at Batman's history with some of his villains and you can see he's not in it for thrills. He constantly tries to get Harley to therapy and get her out of the dysfunctional relationship with the joker. He tries to talk Catwoman out of her life of crime but she steals for the thrills and not for the money. He helps fund research to cure Mr. Freeze's wife and even tries to get help for Mr. Freeze himself. He is frequently appealing to the man Two Face use to be in the hope he'll return to normal. And so on.

If Batman was a sadistic as some try to say he is then he would basically be the Punisher, which he clearly is not. And you can see him wrestle with crossing that line a lot of times when he knows it would be so easy to just kill his foes and make the world a better place. But like I said before Batman does what's right not what's popular, as I imagine it would be popular if he offed one of the big names like the Joker.


When it comes down to it the more I think about it, the more I'd say the story of Batman is one man's desperate attempt to try to make the world a safer place through shear force of will. Because ultimately he's little more than an extremely well funded one man SWAT team. He goes in when the police are out matched and apprehends the suspect. Though unlike SWAT he refuses to use deadly force.
 

schwegburt

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fithian said:
You just implied I am not a rational human being if I disagree with you. You are part of the problem because you think you are above the problem. It is truly disheartening that you do not see your own hypocrisy.

Again I want to state.

"I keep seeing people who have been helpful and kind to me constantly demonized by you and those "professional guys".
If you see anger in what I said that is the reason."
What's funny is I haven't demonized anyone. I'm pointing out that every corner of society has people that stigmatizes "low income schizophrenics" and those elements are not exclusive to feminism. Sorry bud but when you tie "whiny bitches" "upper middle class" and "low income" in the same paragraph the way you did it's a dead give away you're burning about something.

But hey throw "rational" and "bias" around more. You're almost able to convince a fresh college kid with those buzzwords before they get a few years in and realize people are actually biased and emotional people. You've also revealed yours to me in the process. It's pretty hypocritical to use "rational" and "bias" when you yourself go off on a tangent. But I can see how you'd cling to those details.

Funnily enough if you want to talk about dichotomy we can just look at the Anita Sarkeesian furor and see how the geeks react to feminism and gender issues in general. It's not separated in the least.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

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Feb 4, 2009
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I actually read Spencer's "Performing Transgender Identity in The Little Mermaid: From Andersen to Disney". If that is the one you are referring to Movie Bob. I sorta agree, but ideas about conformity, rebellion, and acceptance of diversity (set against the dysmorphic attitudes of presentation and the necessity of physical or emotional change in a Nietzsche/Sartrean-esque tribal discordance scenario) is not exactly uncommon in storytelling. Equally you could apply transgender identity issues in, say, Catch-22.

Whereby Yossarian finds himself in an existential (and/or humanist) crisis about neither being the man he needs to be to simply 'go with the flow', nor having the strength (until the end) to place himself in a situation whereby he can escape the mindlessness of war. Being stuck in the precarious position of knowing war is madness, but not having Orr's strength of conviction (initially) to escape it via whatever means necessary.

So I sorta agree that a lot of times (especially in the language used by the recent Routledge published essay of SPencer) that people simply see things that cause introspection. Not because of creative intent, but because of an existential rationalism of self-perception in a cruel and unexplainable universe. We find motes of emotional support, even when they do not exist to offer this function.
 

No_Rush

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Noelveiga said:
You crossed a few lines that would normally make me disengage, because you're tumbling down a path to straigh-up insults. But I do want to make one more point about this bit above.
You haven't exactly been a bundle of roses either. You just seem to be oblivious as to when you're being insulting.

This bit is exactly what I've been talking about all along. The implication here being that you're worried about your own views becoming unpopular or less dominant.

That... well, you get to worry about that, but it's not a good or a bad thing. Nothing is keeping you from making the opposite point or creating art with the opposite subtext. If it turns out to not be popular, then the market has spoken and holding an outdated or unpopular opinion doesn't mean that you're owed equal coverage in art or representation, it just means you're not prevented from presenting it. That's exactly what Sarkeesian is doing, too.
As I have already stated, I'm not concerned about someone's views. The problem with the crits is that they go far beyond "views." You rather proved my point: I analogized what gamers should validly be concerned about with the progress of same-sex marriage, and the fact that while the baker is still free to express whatever "views" he wants, he's not actually free to choose to whom he dedicates his craft.

Now, your response was essentially to consign the baker to the dustheap of history, archly asserting that "Sometimes society as a whole moves past some customs and taboos so thoroughly...." But nothing of the sort happened: same-sex marriage in Oregon had nothing to do with "democracy, free exchange of ideas and culture." In Oregon (where the baker is), and even in ultra-liberal California, society as a whole--through a democratic process of free elections--declined to make same-sex marriage a legal option. It is only because a legal elite overturned a democratic mandate that the baker is now in the situation he faces.

The legal elites--the judges and lawyers who push these issues forward--have long been influenced by the very forms of criticism that Sarkeesian offers now in the gaming industry. And that has long been the point of critical theory, critical legal theory, and feminist theory. Indeed, it was one of the core principles of critical theory that what matters is not so much democratic legitimacy--because crits largely downplay democracy, which can marginalize minorities, as a source of legitimacy in the first place--as the exercise of power to reshape social norms. Convincing fellow voters isn't so necessary when you can just convince a bunch of folks in long robes.

Basically, I think Sarkeesian is worrying for gamers precisely because I understand her ideological background, the sources that she cites, her intellectual pedigree, and thus I take her seriously. You, on the other hand, toss around the term "democracy" like a cheap slogan.

If people still disagree with that, then they can still go out there and make different things. This concept that there's a gatekeeper in place despite prominent demand preventing the industry from catering to this audience is just not true. Especially not in the age of crowdfunding.
Again, if the only power Sarkeesian sought to invoke was moral suasion, you and I would be on the same page. No one who quotes the sources she does, however, has accepted the normative boundary that if the market demands it, and it causes no direct harm to anyone else, it's OK. Gamers would be fools to believe otherwise.
 

O maestre

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I don't praise moveibob often, but this is an exception. Good show, very topical. Sometimes we need to remind ourselves that games sometimes are just toys, meant for simple enjoyment. The angry birds bit really hit the point home, well done Bob, I had not expected you to deliver something that is so self-aware.
 

Haru17

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Yeah, it's overly simpleminded to say political critical lenses can't be applied to video games.

And that angry birds metaphor was surprisingly applicable in a weird, paranoid sort of way.
 

F.Dubois

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Sep 17, 2014
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An interesting episode. I have some thoughts about it that I hopefully can formulate into proper english in the forums.
It certainly acknowledges a problem that games criticism and coverage seem to have and that, I know from experience, is deeply shared in art and literature as well.
 

Gali

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Nov 19, 2009
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Hey Bob,
I don't agree with most of what you recently said/retweeted on Twitter concerning... well, you probably know what I mean. But fuck it, your actual content is awesome. Looking forward to the next Big Picture. :)
 

Dolf Volkoff

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Sep 17, 2014
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Well, if people didn't analyze what they're watching/reading/playing, all the world would be one big America - the country, in which Jen Psaki, Jorge W. Bush and Barack Obama are reality. That's where thinking that people just over-analyzing things leads you.

This thinking gets you to the point, where the whole country believes that, if in your comic book a so-called "American Icon" as Superman or Captain America defeated Hitler, then it's America who won World War II and not the country that actually did it.

The movies/books/games based on historic events that don't follow those events are dangerous and, in my opinion, shouldn't be taken lightly. Like the movie Pearl Harbor, where Japanese are monsters that even blew up hospitals (that, in reality, they didn't). And americans are always the good guys. The country that destroyed Hiroshima & Nagasaki with atom bombs, destroyed Livia, Iraq (and said "sorry we told you that we had solid proof that Iraq had biological weapons - it was just fake to overthrow their government") and now openly supports new nazy government in Ukraine and does their best to prevent any peaceful resolution in the east-ukrainian conflict.

That's not "over-analyzing". It's the reality your government pays a lot of money to hide from you. And it uses all the possibilities. Games, movies, books, news - there are always good Americans, and big, bad, but stupid "everyone else".

The fact that many of you, when thinking "russky" still think "commie", says a lot.

Think about it. Maybe it's not you, who are misunderstood. Maybe everyone else understands "the american way" much better than you assumed they were.
 
Aug 12, 2013
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HBaskerville said:
The best joke in this whole thing how all criminals need is a job and they will stop committing crimes.
While there are many, many, many different factors as too why people commit crimes, it's also true that the economy is one of those factors. If Bruce Wayne would build more factories or give people great high-paying jobs and with benefits crime in Gotham City would fall a bit, it wouldn't stop Batman's rouges' galley but still it couldn't hurt.
 

BloodRed Pixel

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Jul 16, 2009
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good episode.

usually
the intelligent people will come to intelligent (aka useful) insight & solutions (very few)
the dumb ones not so much (some)
and the soziopaths, wise crackers and fanatics will (disap~) prove anything as they see fit.
 
Aug 12, 2013
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Dolf Volkoff said:
Well, if people didn't analyze what they're watching/reading/playing, all the world would be one big America - the country, in which Jen Psaki, Jorge W. Bush and Barack Obama are reality. That's where thinking that people just over-analyzing things leads you.

This thinking gets you to the point, where the whole country believes that, if in your comic book a so-called "American Icon" as Superman or Captain America defeated Hitler, then it's America who won World War II and not the country that actually did it.

The movies/books/games based on historic events that don't follow those events are dangerous and, in my opinion, shouldn't be taken lightly. Like the movie Pearl Harbor, where Japanese are monsters that even blew up hospitals (that, in reality, they didn't). And americans are always the good guys. The country that destroyed Hiroshima & Nagasaki with atom bombs, destroyed Livia, Iraq (and said "sorry we told you that we had solid proof that Iraq had biological weapons - it was just fake to overthrow their government") and now openly supports new nazy government in Ukraine and does their best to prevent any peaceful resolution.

That's not "over-analyzing". It's the reality your government pays a lot of money to hide from you. And it uses all the possibilities. Games, movies, books, news - there are always good Americans, and big, bad, but stupid "everyone else".

The fact that many of you, when thinking "russky" still think "commie", says a lot.

Think about it. Maybe it's not you, who are misunderstood. Maybe everyone else understands "the american way" much better than you assumed they were.

True, but I wouldn't say the Russians are innocent saints either. The extremely violent semi-state allowed homophobia, the time that RT that showed a mushroom cloud behind saying Russia has nukes too and the head of RT saying that Russia is the only country that could destroy the US, the way Putin has people who don't agree with how he's running things there in prison. I mean don't get me wrong America is no paradise but Russia is not one either.

I'm seen a lot a game critics constantly bash Call of Duty series for it's pro-American and borderline racist stereotypes of people of the Middle East, Russians, Latin/South Americans, and Europeans. So yeah calling us out on our bullshit is fair but don't get pissed when we do it.
 
Aug 12, 2013
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Dolf Volkoff said:
Well, if people didn't analyze what they're watching/reading/playing, all the world would be one big America - the country, in which Jen Psaki, Jorge W. Bush and Barack Obama are reality. That's where thinking that people just over-analyzing things leads you.

This thinking gets you to the point, where the whole country believes that, if in your comic book a so-called "American Icon" as Superman or Captain America defeated Hitler, then it's America who won World War II and not the country that actually did it.

The movies/books/games based on historic events that don't follow those events are dangerous and, in my opinion, shouldn't be taken lightly. Like the movie Pearl Harbor, where Japanese are monsters that even blew up hospitals (that, in reality, they didn't). And americans are always the good guys. The country that destroyed Hiroshima & Nagasaki with atom bombs, destroyed Livia, Iraq (and said "sorry we told you that we had solid proof that Iraq had biological weapons - it was just fake to overthrow their government") and now openly supports new nazy government in Ukraine and does their best to prevent any peaceful resolution.

That's not "over-analyzing". It's the reality your government pays a lot of money to hide from you. And it uses all the possibilities. Games, movies, books, news - there are always good Americans, and big, bad, but stupid "everyone else".

The fact that many of you, when thinking "russky" still think "commie", says a lot.

Think about it. Maybe it's not you, who are misunderstood. Maybe everyone else understands "the american way" much better than you assumed they were.

True, but I wouldn't say the Russians are innocent saints either. The extremely violent semi-state allowed homophobia, the time that RT that showed a mushroom cloud behind saying Russia has nukes too and the head of RT saying that Russia is the only country that could destroy the US, the way Putin has people who don't agree with how he's running things there in prison. I mean don't get me wrong America is no paradise but Russia is not one either.

I'm seen a lot a game critics constantly bash Call of Duty series for it's pro-American and borderline racist stereotypes of people of the Middle East, Russians, Latin/South Americans, and Europeans. So yeah calling us out on our bullshit is fair but don't get pissed when we do it.
 
Aug 12, 2013
81
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Dolf Volkoff said:
Well, if people didn't analyze what they're watching/reading/playing, all the world would be one big America - the country, in which Jen Psaki, Jorge W. Bush and Barack Obama are reality. That's where thinking that people just over-analyzing things leads you.

This thinking gets you to the point, where the whole country believes that, if in your comic book a so-called "American Icon" as Superman or Captain America defeated Hitler, then it's America who won World War II and not the country that actually did it.

The movies/books/games based on historic events that don't follow those events are dangerous and, in my opinion, shouldn't be taken lightly. Like the movie Pearl Harbor, where Japanese are monsters that even blew up hospitals (that, in reality, they didn't). And americans are always the good guys. The country that destroyed Hiroshima & Nagasaki with atom bombs, destroyed Livia, Iraq (and said "sorry we told you that we had solid proof that Iraq had biological weapons - it was just fake to overthrow their government") and now openly supports new nazy government in Ukraine and does their best to prevent any peaceful resolution.

That's not "over-analyzing". It's the reality your government pays a lot of money to hide from you. And it uses all the possibilities. Games, movies, books, news - there are always good Americans, and big, bad, but stupid "everyone else".

The fact that many of you, when thinking "russky" still think "commie", says a lot.

Think about it. Maybe it's not you, who are misunderstood. Maybe everyone else understands "the american way" much better than you assumed they were.

True, but I wouldn't say the Russians are innocent saints either. The extremely violent semi-state allowed homophobia, the time that RT that showed a mushroom cloud behind saying Russia has nukes too and the head of RT saying that Russia is the only country that could destroy the US, the way Putin has people who don't agree with how he's running things there in prison. I mean don't get me wrong America is no paradise but Russia is not one either.

I'm seen a lot a game critics constantly bash Call of Duty series for it's pro-American and borderline racist stereotypes of people of the Middle East, Russians, Latin/South Americans, and Europeans. So yeah calling us out on our bullshit is fair but don't get pissed when we do it.
 

keniakittykat

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Aug 9, 2012
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I think over-analyzing is just something humans tend to do. Our brains just desperately want to make sense of things that don't even have to make sense. We always want to know a better solution to a presented problem. We always want to know what all of the options are. Even if it's something as silly and insignificant as a game or tv show.
Just part of the human experience I guess.
 

4rch1m3d35

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Mar 10, 2012
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schwegburt said:
fithian said:
You just implied I am not a rational human being if I disagree with you. You are part of the problem because you think you are above the problem. It is truly disheartening that you do not see your own hypocrisy.

Again I want to state.

"I keep seeing people who have been helpful and kind to me constantly demonized by you and those "professional guys".
If you see anger in what I said that is the reason."
What's funny is I haven't demonized anyone. I'm pointing out that every corner of society has people that stigmatizes "low income schizophrenics" and those elements are not exclusive to feminism. Sorry bud but when you tie "whiny bitches" "upper middle class" and "low income" in the same paragraph the way you did it's a dead give away you're burning about something.

But hey throw "rational" and "bias" around more. You're almost able to convince a fresh college kid with those buzzwords before they get a few years in and realize people are actually biased and emotional people. You've also revealed yours to me in the process. It's pretty hypocritical to use "rational" and "bias" when you yourself go off on a tangent. But I can see how you'd cling to those details.

Funnily enough if you want to talk about dichotomy we can just look at the Anita Sarkeesian furor and see how the geeks react to feminism and gender issues in general. It's not separated in the least.
It is quite clear that you know you have lost the argument and are now trying to nitpick.

First you don't seem to understand what the words rational, bias, or hypocrisy mean. None of them have to whether you go off into tangents. I was simply addressing all the parts where you were wrong and I went into detail. The most I am guilty of is not being excursively linear which is some what common in the genre of response and not a real problem. The main problem is that you said things that were so wrong that I had to break them down that way. Also I used all those words properly and in appropriate situations, you did not.

rational: based on or in accordance with reason or logic.
I do think the way I view the world is based on or in accordance with reason or logic. Even if you disagree with my reason or logic it is still reason or logic.

bias: cause to feel or show inclination or prejudice for or against someone or something.
I brought up bias when you used it in an argument against me. The problem is not having them but using them in your arguments.

hypocrisy: the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform.
Hopeful now you have an understanding of what the word hypocrisy means and will not use it incorrectly again.

"... it's a dead give away you're burning about something."

The real funny thing is I keep telling you why and I think it was clear from my first post. I will tell you again I have experienced discrimination and they have denied it or belittled it. I said "whiny bitches from the upper-middle class" and included "from the upper-middle class" is because some of the things they discrimination are like Bayonetta being too sexy, illegal torrent sites have pornographic ads, or their dad does not think their gender studies degree is worthwhile.

Also, there is the transphobia in feminism. I did not add this detail in my previous post but I will state it this time to help you understand another part of why this upsets me. I have seen these type of people harass someone that transgendered on multiple occasions that I care about. I will admit that type of behavior does make me feel an intense level of anger. Bigotry really bothers me and I would hope that it bothers you too.

Now lets talk about the false dichotomy you invoked and lets discuss it in terms of Anita Sarkeesian sense you brought her up.

There are not just two side on the views of Anita Sarkeesian there are many.

The first example I will put forth has to do with the video No Girls Allowed: File Sharing Culture and BitTorrent.

Her main argument was that Bit Torrent sites are excluding a female audience because of there advertisements which had sexy women or were pornographic in nature.

The first thing I want to state is that the sites she is talking about host illegal content. There are Bit Torrent sites that do not have these ads they are sites that host legal content like public domain media, free software, and other free culture media. Also, last time I checked Blizzard uses it when you download their games from them.

There were a lot of people telling her to either not break the law or get ad blocking software and used it on those sites if you want to break the law and not see the ads. I think both of those options are reasonable.

There are a lot of reasonable arguments against Anita Sarkeesian and what she says like the one I have given.
 

Dolf Volkoff

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Cyberstrike said:
True, but I wouldn't say the Russians are innocent saints either. The extremely violent semi-state allowed homophobia
Violence not allowed in any part of Russia, except in self-defense.
And in the privacy of your own home, you can be gay all you like. But if one goes to a kid with that, any sane person would break his face, whether it allowed or not. I don't see preserving a child's sanity from some weirdo-pervert-maniac as a bad thing.

Cyberstrike said:
the time that RT that showed a mushroom cloud behind saying Russia has nukes too and the head of RT saying that Russia is the only country that could destroy the US
And? Russia does have nukes and probably is the only country that could destroy the US.
America also has them. The difference is: America is the only country that already nuked 2 cities with civilians with them (and ironically, in Hiroshima atom bomb detonated over Shima Surgical Clinic).

Cyberstrike said:
the way Putin has people who don't agree with how he's running things there in prison.
And that never happened. That's what I meant when I was speaking about propaganda in US News. The president and most of the government we have now are the ones we're not ashamed of.

And America has officially allowed tortures, the guantanamo prison, where they keep pretty much anyone they want without giving them any human rights or presumption of innocence, for how long they want, and no one would know about it.

In the light of all the above, whatever you say/fabricate about us, won't hold any comparison.

Cyberstrike said:
I'm seen a lot a game critics constantly bash Call of Duty series for it's pro-American and borderline racist stereotypes of people of the Middle East, Russians, Latin/South Americans, and Europeans. So yeah calling us out on our bullshit is fair but don't get pissed when we do it.
So when in The Walking Dead game season 2 they say that "russkies" should be beaten to death or they start shooting little girls, like american cops do, I don't have the right to be pissed? But if gays are asked to keep their sh*t to themselves and not go harassing little kids, we suddenly offending their holy rights?

That's pretty weird morale you got there.