Umm . . . Japan? I don't think that's accurate if that's what you're getting at.Mister Linton said:
The Big Picture: Gender Games
- Thread starter MovieBob
- Start date
Mortal KombatMister Linton said:
BulletStorm
Warcraft
God of War
These are just a few examples not from said island nation but I do agree that a lot of this stuff does come from Japan, very unfair to suggest it's only them doing it, christ look at western comics, someone already posted a helpful link about Catwoman and Starfire.
Edit: I forgot the most obvious one, DUKE NUKEM
On the other hand, it drove me up the wall what they did to the outfits in ME2 - Ashley and Liara wore the same armour as femshep in ME which was sensible and made sense in context. In ME2 the Justicar and Jack go into battle with their tits out and I'm not even going to start on Miranda's ludicrous buttocks. I couldn't face taking them on missions because every conversation seemed ridiculous (Didn't take Jacob much either since he didn't wear any armour, which seemed equally stupid). Ashley was a professional soldier and hey, some soldiers are bigots. I didn't use her either but that was because my Femshep filled the same role.Paragon Fury said:
My point is, yes Ashley was unlikeable, but that's a step forward, because she had a believable personality.
Three things:
1) I agree. There's nothing that says women in games can't look sexy without thrusting their anatomy around the place.
2) PONIES. I SAW PONIES.
3) I really, really despise the word heteronormative.
1) I agree. There's nothing that says women in games can't look sexy without thrusting their anatomy around the place.
2) PONIES. I SAW PONIES.
3) I really, really despise the word heteronormative.
Therumancer: "No Bob, there is not an issue."
Um, yes, there is. And people denying that there is an issue here is one of the key parts of this issue.
Let's draw a generalization, using the recent controversy over comic books. Yes, there are exceptions, but this is too close to a rule to be healthy. If you meet Batman in a dark alley, his costume says "I am a dangerous vigilante, and if you are a criminal you're about to wake up broken and bleeding in a hospital bed - fear me." If you meet Starfire in a dark alley, her costume says "I am an easy lay, let's go back to my place - f*** me."
Far too much of the way women are presented has to do with presenting them as a sexual fantasy, as opposed to actual characters. Now, the argument is made that men are idealized or sexualized too. But, you know what? THAT ISN'T AN EXCUSE. Male characters may get silly costumes, but they're functional more often than not. Male characters may look like walls of muscle, but it makes sense if you're some warrior used to almost superhuman feats of strength. And, more to the point, male characters are more than the sum of a 13-year old's sexual fantasy.
If the rule was female characters who were wearing clothes that made sense for what they were doing - as opposed to for a stripping pole - then perhaps you would have a point. But that's not the rule. The rule is a level of objectification that is downright embarrassing. The feminists are right on this one, and the gamers are wrong.
And, frankly, once this gets fixed, the medium will be a lot better for it, and it will be taken far more seriously.
Um, yes, there is. And people denying that there is an issue here is one of the key parts of this issue.
Let's draw a generalization, using the recent controversy over comic books. Yes, there are exceptions, but this is too close to a rule to be healthy. If you meet Batman in a dark alley, his costume says "I am a dangerous vigilante, and if you are a criminal you're about to wake up broken and bleeding in a hospital bed - fear me." If you meet Starfire in a dark alley, her costume says "I am an easy lay, let's go back to my place - f*** me."
Far too much of the way women are presented has to do with presenting them as a sexual fantasy, as opposed to actual characters. Now, the argument is made that men are idealized or sexualized too. But, you know what? THAT ISN'T AN EXCUSE. Male characters may get silly costumes, but they're functional more often than not. Male characters may look like walls of muscle, but it makes sense if you're some warrior used to almost superhuman feats of strength. And, more to the point, male characters are more than the sum of a 13-year old's sexual fantasy.
If the rule was female characters who were wearing clothes that made sense for what they were doing - as opposed to for a stripping pole - then perhaps you would have a point. But that's not the rule. The rule is a level of objectification that is downright embarrassing. The feminists are right on this one, and the gamers are wrong.
And, frankly, once this gets fixed, the medium will be a lot better for it, and it will be taken far more seriously.
The whole way women are usually depicted in video games gets on my nerves a lot. This topic specifically is diffidently part of the problem. I often fail to find female characters believable for this same 1 dimensional way that female characters are often depicted. These characters always feel out of place in the games that they are in because of this. It needs to stop.
Hey, I was just about to post that article after I read it on RPS. So that's good! It never hurts to get this issue more publicity. Besides, I thought the above article explains the problem more clearly than Bob did, but in one way that's not surprising, since a female writer is bound to have a better perspective on the matter.hermes200 said:
I dont think Tomb Raider is a good example for this argument...if anything, Tomb Raider is a character who is fan service and they STILL give her quite amount of depth(lately). Thru the last 3 games, she has been in outfits n poses and ridiculous proportions, but also dont forget the growing character arc from Anniversary to Underworld, where Laras obsession for her mothers accident, who she blames herself at first for happening, as well as maturing into a person who used to value human life, but by the end of Underworld, is willing to go to any means to get revenge, reach her mother, and kill anything and anyone who gets in her path. If you analize her character, it is LOADS of layers into the human psyche of corrupting a innocent mind over time with pressure and horrible events.Woodsey said:
The problem is the game is a bit poor on conveying decent story, but the fleshing out is there.
So thats lara. hot, posey, fan service, and yet fleshed out and complex.
Enjoyed the episode thoroughly. It's very very true, and a good take on an argument that's often overheated to uselessness.
However, I just can't help myself...
Last episode, you said "I know a black guy, and he doesn't think it's racist" isn't an empirical argument.
This episode, you said, in support of your argument: "...but I do know quite a few women that would be called both gamers and feminists..."
While of course you were more verbose in your explanation, if you remove the disclaimers, they boil down to the same essential thing, no?
However, I just can't help myself...
Last episode, you said "I know a black guy, and he doesn't think it's racist" isn't an empirical argument.
This episode, you said, in support of your argument: "...but I do know quite a few women that would be called both gamers and feminists..."
While of course you were more verbose in your explanation, if you remove the disclaimers, they boil down to the same essential thing, no?
According to some pretty credible scientific research women evaluate the sexual desirability of a man based on a couple of factors. Symmetry (IE evidence of malformation in utero or youth), Height (direct translation of physical power), Wealth (abilty to provide), Fame/Status (ability to influence the tribe), Intelligence/competance (duh). There are some pretty hilariously exact ratio's that are involved up to literal inches being worth a certain amount in gross annual salary. IE all other factors being equal a short guy who makes an even million is as attractive as a tall guy making a hundred thousand. There are a few "hidden" metrics like immunocompatibility and such but unless we create smellovision video games that's not really relevant to us.
The reason I bring this up is that the metrics men use to evaluate women don't have nearly the depth or complexity. Men also evaluate symmetry and intelligence/competance, but height, fame and wealth just don't factor into the equation. This is why a so many romantic comedies have the woman being a clerk/secretary/checkout girl/artist. Her social status and income doesn't factor into her desirability.
The fun thing about this dichotomy is that male "cheesecake" is more often than not silly. A man without his status symbols (nice suit/tie, armor, gun, Head dress, crown, etc.) is less sexual attractive. Thus revealing/skimpy outfits generally don't work as sexualization unless it is tapping into a primal vein, to wit Conan, where his lack of clothing reinforces a lack of need for props. Conan is sexy because he is self contained, all his power derived from his own ability to project force not the whims of the tribe or his current material status. He exhibits promise. Simple visual sexualization of the male form appeals more to gay men who evaluate other gay men with the same metrics that men use on women. Don't believe me? Take a quick pop over to google and type in gay porn. You will be bombarded by a literal tidal wave of images that match quite closely with the standard "cheesecake" posings.
The ultimate point I am trying to convey is that this is a problem that goes way deeper than "feminism vs. gaming". Bob is right that there is a talking past issue, but it isn't just a matter of knee jerk on either side. It is about a complete and utter failure to even acknowledge the underlying terrain. People on both sides try and pretend that you can equate men and women. You can't.
Oh don't get me wrong. Male and female are totally equatable, were both human. There are differences physiologically, neurologically and psychologically but they are trivial compared to the similarities. The problem is that part of desire of men and women is to present themselves and see the other as attractive and what attracts men and women to one another are not the same. Thus even if there is a good deal of similarity between the sexes on an absolute level the instinct is the present yourself (whoever that self may be) as something different.
Marcus Fenix and the Master Chief are both paragons of masculine sexuality (for a certain value thereof, namely the teenage idealization of power). Ditto for a large portion of protagonist bin. More complex and nuanced views of masculine sexuality that strike a chord with older and more mature men are just as vanishingly rare as "nonsexualized women". You almost never get to play Otto Schindler or even Micheal Corleone, instead we get lots of Dolph Lundgren and Steven Seagal. See... I can't even be bothered to come up with characters for those two! All they do is play archetypes!
Being timelocked in the teenaged mindset is the problem. Or rather, being timelocked in the teenaged demographic. This is entirely an issue of market share and TIME. Nothing that we do, no protest and no angry rant will solve this. There is no solution in being progressive and waging campaigns. It doesn't matter one whit and will accomplish NOTHING. What needs to happen, and what will happen is that the population will get older and the boys will grow up. The oldest wave front of the gamer culture in in the mid thirties now. What we need to do is wait for them to be in their fifties and all the gamers now, male and female to be in their thirties. IE about 20 years from now.
In the mean time there will be a small specialized market for adults and a few large studios who are dedicated to the concept (kinda like how blizzard paid attention to mac users back when no one else did). But that is it. No use crying over it, hell I wouldn't even bother boycotting that crap. We all remember DOA Xtreme BEach Volleyball... that shit tanked despite everyone saying that they were going to line up and that any red blooded male who owned an x box needed to get it. The wonderful thing about cultural shifts are that they shift quite well on their own.
The reason I bring this up is that the metrics men use to evaluate women don't have nearly the depth or complexity. Men also evaluate symmetry and intelligence/competance, but height, fame and wealth just don't factor into the equation. This is why a so many romantic comedies have the woman being a clerk/secretary/checkout girl/artist. Her social status and income doesn't factor into her desirability.
The fun thing about this dichotomy is that male "cheesecake" is more often than not silly. A man without his status symbols (nice suit/tie, armor, gun, Head dress, crown, etc.) is less sexual attractive. Thus revealing/skimpy outfits generally don't work as sexualization unless it is tapping into a primal vein, to wit Conan, where his lack of clothing reinforces a lack of need for props. Conan is sexy because he is self contained, all his power derived from his own ability to project force not the whims of the tribe or his current material status. He exhibits promise. Simple visual sexualization of the male form appeals more to gay men who evaluate other gay men with the same metrics that men use on women. Don't believe me? Take a quick pop over to google and type in gay porn. You will be bombarded by a literal tidal wave of images that match quite closely with the standard "cheesecake" posings.
The ultimate point I am trying to convey is that this is a problem that goes way deeper than "feminism vs. gaming". Bob is right that there is a talking past issue, but it isn't just a matter of knee jerk on either side. It is about a complete and utter failure to even acknowledge the underlying terrain. People on both sides try and pretend that you can equate men and women. You can't.
Oh don't get me wrong. Male and female are totally equatable, were both human. There are differences physiologically, neurologically and psychologically but they are trivial compared to the similarities. The problem is that part of desire of men and women is to present themselves and see the other as attractive and what attracts men and women to one another are not the same. Thus even if there is a good deal of similarity between the sexes on an absolute level the instinct is the present yourself (whoever that self may be) as something different.
Marcus Fenix and the Master Chief are both paragons of masculine sexuality (for a certain value thereof, namely the teenage idealization of power). Ditto for a large portion of protagonist bin. More complex and nuanced views of masculine sexuality that strike a chord with older and more mature men are just as vanishingly rare as "nonsexualized women". You almost never get to play Otto Schindler or even Micheal Corleone, instead we get lots of Dolph Lundgren and Steven Seagal. See... I can't even be bothered to come up with characters for those two! All they do is play archetypes!
Being timelocked in the teenaged mindset is the problem. Or rather, being timelocked in the teenaged demographic. This is entirely an issue of market share and TIME. Nothing that we do, no protest and no angry rant will solve this. There is no solution in being progressive and waging campaigns. It doesn't matter one whit and will accomplish NOTHING. What needs to happen, and what will happen is that the population will get older and the boys will grow up. The oldest wave front of the gamer culture in in the mid thirties now. What we need to do is wait for them to be in their fifties and all the gamers now, male and female to be in their thirties. IE about 20 years from now.
In the mean time there will be a small specialized market for adults and a few large studios who are dedicated to the concept (kinda like how blizzard paid attention to mac users back when no one else did). But that is it. No use crying over it, hell I wouldn't even bother boycotting that crap. We all remember DOA Xtreme BEach Volleyball... that shit tanked despite everyone saying that they were going to line up and that any red blooded male who owned an x box needed to get it. The wonderful thing about cultural shifts are that they shift quite well on their own.
For some guys, this is exceptionally difficult to do. Why? Well, lots of issues. Lack of sex, lack of a girlfriend or significant other, or just a powerful libido. I'm not proud of this, but more than once I've heard myself thinking, "Yeah, I'd have sex with her."lockgar said:
The best we can do is to try to not sexualize them in this way, but sometimes it's just a natural reaction. Is she hot or isn't she? Typically this determine whether or not you'd like to engage in sexual relations.
That said, I do think there need to be more strong and powerful women out there who don't depend on men or fall into typical romantic or sexual tropes. I'm a big fan of tough female characters, or those who (while not outwardly 'tough') have a great amount of willpower and resolve, and fight to the very end even when it seems hopeless (Hayao Miyazaki has made many characters like this, females who don't give up and take it beyond what other men or women would do).
EDIT: Could designers make unattractive female characters and still have them work? Of course. There are plenty of unattractive male characters out there that are popular. Will they be as popular as they would be if they were all attractive in some way or another, physically speaking? Yeah, probably, but that's really nothing we can change (at the moment).