The Big Picture: Gender Games

[shadyh8er]

So I looked up Andrea Dworkin on ye olde Wikipedia. I stopped reading when I reached the part where she claimed that the very act of vaginal penetration is degrading to women.

So that's where the "women hate sex" stereotype came from!

 

[RTR]

And so, the plot thickens...
Bob, I think you might've just discussed the missing link to finding the balance between aproaching female characters maturely and responsibly while still letting them be sexy.

 

[GeorgW]

I loved it. I've always use the argument: They do it to men as well!
I very much hope that this trend, given the growing outcry, will start to decline. I doubt it, but I hope.

 

[4173]

4173: "It's funny you use Batman as an example, because the various Batgirls and Batwomen are usually more covered up than the Robins."

Yeah, that's what came to mind - I had just been reading the article about the comics, and reading all of those posts in reply that amounted to "Yeah, but men are oversexualized too!"

And, I'll concede what I've seen of Batman is pretty close to the way things should be done. Catwoman doesn't look like a stripper, and neither do the other female characters. But, you look at video game characters, and wow...just wow. There are female video game costumes that would require glue or double-sided tape just to work.

(And, speaking of Robin, well, I'm not a comic book fan, so what I've seen has tended to be on TV, and there the Batman and Robin combination freaks the hell out of me. Most of the time, Robin looks like he's around 12 years old - Batman should go to jail for endangerment of a minor. And that's not counting all of the other unfortunate implications of having a "boy wonder" actually being a boy.)

Yes, Robin is very much a case where one has to say "comic book logic" and just go with it.

Anyway, back on topic... A lot of the replies are pretty horrid, but I think she (I assume this was the Comics Alliance article) overstates her case a little bit. Well, she actually points out how she may be overstating her case; the problem isn't having sex and cheesecake, the problem is when it is systematic or institutional. It is arguable the controversy got exaggerated because both issues came out the same week (probably as coincidence)...the flip side is it may be problematic to have a status quo in which that coincidence is somewhat likely.

As an aside, although the Batwomen may be more covered up than average, that doesn't mean they are immune. It isn't unheard of for an artist to render the exciting action sequence from the p.o.v of someone starring at Batgirl's ass. On the other hand, it is probably hard to make an athletic woman NOT look at least somewhat sexy in a skin tight bodysuit.

edit 2: Huh, that second Dragon Age pic doesn't seem too poorly posed.

It's not nearly as bad as some, but take note of the exposed upper thigh, the thigh-high boots, and the way she has one knee pulled over slightly in that coy flirtatious way.

The first picture represents Leliana's confidence and combat skill.

The second picture is nowhere near as bad as Dead or Alive, true. But when you look it, you see that everything else that this picture could say about her character is down-played by the focus on Leliana being attractive/sexy, to the exclusion of anything else you could draw about her character. And that's exactly what Bob is talking about.

I'll give you the knees. No argument.

The boots and the skirt, I'm not entirely convinced. I think they fall into the [huge] grey area where in and of themselves they are stylistic/characterization/harmless but when ubiquitous for female characters, or too many are used on the same character, a problem.

 

[The-Epicly-Named-Man]

My disinterest in this subject is astounding. I despise the over-sexualised lust-objects that populate every fighter and bad shooter in this medium, but that doesn't mean I'm going to "take a stand" or some sh*te. I'm just not interested in the sort of games that feel they need to shove t*ts in my face to grab my attention; I don't need some big, cultural reason for that.

 

[Songbird-O]

I liked this episode a lot. I always love seeing the smaller nuances of issues like Gender Games and how they fit into, well... The Big Picture. Poses are a wonderful point, and I think that thinking about poses really can provide the missing information between these two groups.

I adore Torneko Taloon, by the way. Speaking of which, Dragon Quest IV's designs on the whole itself is an interesting example, specifically the two sisters, Mina and Maya. They look alike, but in addition to their clothes, their poses are much more indicative of which is the somewhat stuffy fortune teller, and which is the gambling dancing girl. Clothing is one thing, but their poses in the original art really hammer the difference in.

 

[Krantos]

heh, so true about the poses.

Want a specific reference? Check out the Idle stance and animations for Male and Female Hawke in Dragon Age 2. Male Hawke just kind of stands there. Female Hawke cocks her hips and sticks out her chest like she's posing for a lingerie ad.

I asked my wife to take a look one time, not telling her specifically what I wanted her to see. First words out of her mouth: "Why is she standing like that?"

On a completely different note, I was thinking about it the other day and I came to the conclusion that women might actually be more shallow than men. If nothing else, they're more selective when it comes to physical appearance.

Take the average guy and present him with the average woman. Odds are he'll find her attractive. Now take the average woman and present her with an average guy. Same result? Not typically. I made this argument to my wife (who is obviously not shallow, since she married me), and she agreed. She also pointed out that this is likely a result of evolution. It makes sense for the males to find a wider range of potential partners attractive, since they can have multiple partners at once. Females, on the other hand, are limited to carrying one offspring at a time, so it makes sense for them to be selective when choosing a mate.

The Moral? As much of a stink as people make about the way women are portrayed in media, it's actually men who are under more pressure to look/act a certain way. I used to think I was unusual in that I find virtually every woman I see attractive in one way or another, but when I asked other guys about it, they say the same thing.

 

[Stall]

This episode is pretty pathetic. It's hard to take a discourse on gender portrayal seriously from a guy who has outright REPEATEDLY objectified women and continues to objectify women without batting an eye. Just go watch any of his Escape to the Movies episodes. Odds say it won't take you long to hear him oggle and drool over a woman, or talk about how he wants to see X actress naked, or in a highly provocative role. Even worse, he has never been above bashing people who believe that he is sexist for stating these things. What right does Bob has to discuss gender portrayal given his background regarding anti-feminism?

Heck, you can tell MovieBob doesn't want to STOP objectifying women because of how he approaches the argument (it isn't the clothes or the massive amount of sexualitzation of women in video games, but just how the pose). This ENTIRE video is rendered moot given the background of the speaker.

I want my 5 minutes back.

 

[BrotherRool]

That really gets to the heart of an issue that I thought was somewhere else. Thanks for the episode!

 

[Vuirneen]

Thank you, MovieBob.

 

[Belaam]

The feminists are right on this one, and the gamers are wrong.

Nice to see we have an objective view on things here. *sigh* Shall we just lock this thread now before it gets to personal insults?

Objective does not mean that both sides are right. It is simply untrue that female characters get the kind of characterization and development that male characters receive. There are occasional exceptions, but nowhere near parity on how men and women are treated in most mediums.

 

[Princess Rose]

God damnit Bob. Don't ever say something's an exception that proves a rule. Exceptions are evidence against rules.

Yes, but the fact that their IS an exception proves that the rule exists, however mildly flawed. That's what the phrase means - you couldn't have an exception to a rule if the rule doesn't exist.

Under that logic anything can be a rule.

For example I can make up a rule that bands don't have girls' names in their song titles.

Now here's a quiz with 99 exceptions to that rule

http://www.sporcle.com/games/g/womentitled_songs

But hey it's the exceptions that prove the rule exists.

None of those things are considered exceptions - lots of bands have girls' names in them.

The point is that the idea already exists in people's minds. People already recognize the exception as different and unique. Hence, if people generally accept that the exception is a unique circumstance, then it shows that the "rule" - the generalization that things work a certain way - does indeed exist.

Now, if you asked 1000 people on the street if they could name any band with girls' names in them, and most of those people either couldn't, or only named one or two of the bands on your list, then you'd have the backing for a "rule" - because in that case, you would have shown that the tendency does indeed exist.

You alone can't make up a rule or the exceptions - the point is this is something that large groups of people create/see.

 

[Darmani]

I disagree. Half of the appeal of Aya Brea was her broken bird/heroin chic/artsty/angsty nude aesthetic. The entire first game is seduced by the dark power of lesbianism eliminating man (seriously a major plot is destroying the individual touch of men even in their own semen to have EVE create the perfect child) thing. She inescpicably spends the first level is tight dress.

But it was all still elegant and, especially for the time, stylish and new dichotomy of normalcy and posh with brutality and freaki-ness (great for a largely 'first' modern rpg unifying the conventions of modern movie and the pre-lotr fantasy rpg). Something that is mirrored with Melissa-Eve and her evolution into monstrous opera diva, living incubator, a raggedy afterbirth/caraccident and finally mad naked fairy queen. Sexual imagery clings to the series something fierce. but with some meaning and class even if only really stylish body horror clash

PEII WAS a disaster where the art and post and semi-style went to just porn, we got a shower scene and Brea couldn't wear pants in the desert while fighting doberman sized scorpions (seriously I face palmed at this as much as the damned tank control). She was dressed as a pandering playmate more more acurately the game seemed unable to find its legs stealing RE controls, Lora Croft's outfit, Squall Leonhart's sword...and the monsters just seemed more... contrived and dumb as to horrorific and unique and made even less sense.

3rd Birthday seemed more a return to form. Even better. Less wain etheral half dumb stares more alert processing looks. Her powers don't have her having hot flashes before "sexy" fainting (in that way actual people don't actually fall) and the vest and torn jeans with emphasis on the gun. . . Okay its a model pose, but at least rock/grunge and I see worry but not dumbfounded etheral mindlessness OR generic nothing but ass kicking here. There is a sexy there but like I could see on a street but not at the expense of me thinking there is a person facing some tough shit there.

And then the clothing mechanic (facepalm) sigh. No... just NO.

 

[Ukomba]

It's a reasonable argument, and not one that needs to bring up feminism at all.

There's also something here to how the male and female mind are different. If you wanted to pose a male character to turn on a female player you would do it differently. A lot of male characters are, in fact, posing that way. Same for the way they dress. Dressing a character as revealing as possible my turn on a male player, it doesn't always work that way for a female. There are impractical male costumes that seem to be targeting female sensibilities. Men just don't complain about it because, 1. They don't recognize it, and 2. They usually aren't as degrading as their female counter parts.

For example, my wife finds FF8 Squall in his dress uniform really hot. An argument could be made that that whole dance scene was purely targeted at the female players.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Objective does not mean that both sides are right.

It does mean not dismissing the other sides views out of hand though.

It is simply untrue that female characters get the kind of characterization and development that male characters receive. There are occasional exceptions, but nowhere near parity on how men and women are treated in most mediums.

But there you go again. There is no point making these sort of statements because they're rude and unhelpful to an ongoing discussion. If you believe something like that then you need to at least provide proof - and preferably a way to resolve it.

Simply saying "Side A is wrong" is no better than "This".

 

[Aisaku]

I disagree. Half of the appeal of Aya Brea was her broken bird/heroin chic/artsty/angsty nude aesthetic. The entire first game is seduced by the dark power of lesbianism eliminating man (seriously a major plot is destroying the individual touch of men even in their own semen to have EVE create the perfect child) thing. She inescpicably spends the first level is tight dress.

But it was all still elegant and, especially for the time, stylish and new dichotomy of normalcy and posh with brutality and freaki-ness. Something that is mirrored with Melissa-Eve and her evolution into monstrous opera demon, living incubator, a raggedy afterbirth and finally mad naked fairy queen. Sexual imagery clings to the series something fierce.

PEII WAS a disaster where the art and post and semi-tyle went to just porn, we got a shower scene and Brea couldn't wear pants, in the desert while fighting doberman sized scorpions. She was dressed as a pandering playmate more more acurately the game seemed unable to find its legs stealing RE controls, Lora Croft's outfit, Squall Leonhart's sword...and the monsters just seemed more... contrived and dumb.

3rd Birthday seemed more a return to form. Even better. Less wain etheral half dumb stares more alert processing looks. Her powers don't have her having hot flashes before "sexy" fainting (in that way actual people don't actually fall) and the vest and torn jeans with emphasis on the gun. Okay its a model pose, but at least rock/grunge and I see worry but not dumbfounded etheral worry. There is a sexy there but like I could see on a street but not at the expense of me thinking there is a person facing some tough shit there.

And then the clothing mechanic (facepalm) sigh.

Agreed on most of your points except there's a perfectly good reason why Aya's in a dress in the first few scenes: She was attending a fancy show, with a date who bails on her at the first sight of spontaneous combustion. I'd rather ask why did she bring her work gun to a date.

 

[Aureliano]

Really well done, Bob. Really well done. You picked a topic, took a strong and interesting stand on it, and took it the whole way through. Kudos.

Extra points for not trying to defend the defensive gamer dudes on this one because you're simply not trying to take away their boobs. Instead you're trying to allow ladies to actually be characters in games instead of always just being strippers. That's absolutely laudable.

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

I disagree. Half of the appeal of Aya Brea was her broken bird/heroin chic/artsty/angsty nude aesthetic. The entire first game is seduced by the dark power of lesbianism eliminating man (seriously a major plot is destroying the individual touch of men even in their own semen to have EVE create the perfect child) thing. She inescpicably spends the first level is tight dress.

But it was all still elegant and, especially for the time, stylish and new dichotomy of normalcy and posh with brutality and freaki-ness (great for a largely 'first' modern rpg unifying the conventions of modern movie and the pre-lotr fantasy rpg). Something that is mirrored with Melissa-Eve and her evolution into monstrous opera diva, living incubator, a raggedy afterbirth/caraccident and finally mad naked fairy queen. Sexual imagery clings to the series something fierce. but with some meaning and class even if only really stylish body horror clash

PEII WAS a disaster where the art and post and semi-style went to just porn, we got a shower scene and Brea couldn't wear pants in the desert while fighting doberman sized scorpions (seriously I face palmed at this as much as the damned tank control). She was dressed as a pandering playmate more more acurately the game seemed unable to find its legs stealing RE controls, Lora Croft's outfit, Squall Leonhart's sword...and the monsters just seemed more... contrived and dumb as to horrorific and unique and made even less sense.

3rd Birthday seemed more a return to form. Even better. Less wain etheral half dumb stares more alert processing looks. Her powers don't have her having hot flashes before "sexy" fainting (in that way actual people don't actually fall) and the vest and torn jeans with emphasis on the gun. . . Okay its a model pose, but at least rock/grunge and I see worry but not dumbfounded etheral mindlessness OR generic nothing but ass kicking here. There is a sexy there but like I could see on a street but not at the expense of me thinking there is a person facing some tough shit there.

And then the clothing mechanic (facepalm) sigh. No... just NO.

....Way to miss the champ like a point

 

[Lieju]

Agreed.

Also speaking as a someone who likes women, I do not find 99% of those 'sexy' female characters, well, sexy.
Even ignoring the fact that I find good characterisation and intelligence sexy, and looking just the physical appearance, anorexics with balloons taped on their chest wearing skimpy clothing leaving little to imagination is not my idea of attractive.

Not to mention, huge breasts with jiggle-physics just make me feel bad. Do you have any idea how painful that would be?
There are good reasons why women generally wear bras, expecially when doing sports.

 

[RJ Dalton]

wheres the rule63 of

?
they dont exist, probably because it wouldnt be attractive, to a mainstream audience at least...

Just because it made me curious, I had to check out your claim for myself and you, sir, are wrong: http://rule63.paheal.net/post/view/13747?search=E._Honda
It's safe for work, don't worry.

On a side note: Why the fuck are there Russian characters in my recapcha?