The Big Picture: In Defense of "Booth Babes" (sort of)

[Piorn]

Once again I'm surprised how little I care.
I have nothing against models working for a convention, and nothing against women in general, regardless of what hobby they enjoy.
And I'm mature enough to not be mesmerized into blindly buying something solely on the basis of a nice looking person advertising it.
So why should I care.

 

[tontje]

Eyecandy hired to promote stuff, does the term "booth-babe" really bother anyone? Seems more like an accurate description (a babe in a booth).

 

[carnex]

What am I forcing onto others?

What are people who dislike Jack's "clothing" forcing onto you?

Oh, forgot to answer your direct question. Well, omega 616 wants to limit creative freedom of game designers. While removing those type of clothes would fix some games, it would break others and limit game designers. If we ever want to see games be considered as artistic medium we, the poeple who are main consumers, must support it as artictic medium.

But even without "art" notion, canesorhip is plain bad, We don't need our version of Hay's Code.

Still I see sensless chioices, and since I know omega 616 will continue to champion his opinion, at least he can champion cause I can somewhat agree with

 

[Grahav]

Good one, Bob.


Boot... Models modeling in an appropriate context. Cheerleader for Lolippop, comboy for Red Dead, bald guy for hitman. Simple and funny.

 

[Merklyn236]

MovieBob, I think you hit the nail on the head when you talked about everyone rushing in to address the symptoms of the problem (in this case, latent misogyny present is the gaming community) instead of actually trying to FIX the real problem. Of course, that's because the symptoms can easily be fixed by rules ("We're going to ban 'booth babes' from the convention, because we want to be gender inclusive" instead of "Um, people, maybe we should do a better job of being an inclusive gaming society here. You think? Maybe? Hello?"

Banning "booth babes" is an effective means to start fixing the problems within the community. If gamers going to conventions don't expect to see women presented as eye-candy, then that helps improve the community.

I would agree with that if A - the SOLE reason for not permitting companies to use them was on the basis of their (debatable) sexist presence, and B - that the booths they were banned from wouldn't be permitted to have had artwork representing their games that effected the same result (ala Dragon's Crown). If you're going to say a sexy woman at a booth is out of bounds, so are representations of sexy women.

 

[Bad Jim]

Incidentally, when Bob mentioned that looking good, presentable, and approachable is hard work, I was immediately reminded of Chris Hemsworth and how he had to change his entire diet and lifestyle to look as ripped as he was in Thor, and how he's considering leaving the Marvel Cinematic Universe simply because he doesn't want to conform to that lifestyle forever.

I think that the 'hard work' argument is pretty dumb. After all, there is a lot of hard work involved when the US federal government builds a 'road to nowhere'. Just to clear this up Bob, hard work is a negative. It requires that someone be paid, and the cost is passed on to the consumer.

And at least with a road to nowhere, once you lay aside the work involved and the consequent waste of public money, the road itself does not make America worse. The great majority who didn't need it won't bump into it, and the one man and his dog who actually use it are better off. But booth babes are widely considered to make the trade shows worse, and the hard work involved should really just be another nail in its' coffin.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Ive always hated the idea that these women had to lose there jobs because some were offended. No one once stood in there defense and now they have less ways to provide than before. People could have been considerate and suggested that the job "change" or evolve to cater to differing tastes but no. screw her and screw you was the idea and it still pisses me off to think of it.

 

[wulf3n]

Ive always hated the idea that these women had to lose there jobs because some were offended. No one once stood in there defense and now they have less ways to provide than before. People could have been considerate and suggested that the job "change" or evolve to cater to differing tastes but no. screw her and screw you was the idea and it still pisses me off to think of it.

I don't know much about the modelling industry, but I would assume their respective agencies would find them other contracts. I don't believe they only do gaming conventions.

 

[JimB]

Omega 616 wants to limit creative freedom of game designers.

If the choice is a binary "limit creative freedom of game designers or combat sexism in the video games industry" choice (and I'm not sure why it should be binary, but that seems to be the option I have), then I choose the latter. Nothing about a creator's right to be a douche trumps the right of a woman not to have a creator's douche-backwash aimed at her.

 

[AstaresPanda]

booth babe may not be the nicest of words to use but its a simple and easy term that stuck and everyone knows what it means. Its not always used in a negative light its just a descriptive term now. Dont know why its an issue, otherwise you'd better start taking sex out of everything as its the way the world works. Sex Sells. simples.

And further more like you said booth babes get paid very well as its a job with a short life span. So whats the problem ? they were not forced to do the job they chose to do it. Same with strippers as the feminists getting bent out of shape about. Who is taking advantage of who ? the man who throws huge amounts of money at the women for haveing the self confidence knowing how she is using her sexuality for her financial and personal gain. I fucking HATE Pach but there does seem to be alot of whiners these days. This is not just a video games industry "issue" this is an advertisement .... promblem i guess ? its just the way marketing works. Deal with it ?

 

[PunkRex]

This video basically just asked everyone to stay classy, nice Bob, I agree.

Also, while we're at it can we PLEEEEEEASE stop using the term 'White Knight', the freaking way people use it pisses me off to no end and idiots like to think it shots down any possible disscussion on touchy subjects like this. Just take the first page of this forum for example... F*CCCCCK!

 

[carnex]

Omega 616 wants to limit creative freedom of game designers.

If the choice is a binary "limit creative freedom of game designers or combat sexism in the video games industry" choice (and I'm not sure why it should be binary, but that seems to be the option I have), then I choose the latter. Nothing about a creator's right to be a douche trumps the right of a woman not to have a creator's douche-backwash aimed at her.

It's not a binary choice and there are infinite paths throuh the problem. But, as you could have already concluded, I'm against censorship. Full stop. All other mediums droped it, replacing it with age rankings. And even those are not mandatory except for "adult" ones.

It's basic human right, as we understand them now, to express yoursef in any way you want in public space. But, in return everyone is alowed to verbaly rip you open a new one. Or a dozen new ones for that matter. Forbiding one whole language (sexual appeal) i spiting in the face of that.

That isn't to say that you can't prostest it. It's just up to the artist will it bow to your demands or flip you the bird and weather the storm that inevetably comes.

Also, while we're at it can we PLEEEEEEASE stop using the term 'White Knight', the freaking way people use it pisses me off to no end and idiots like to think it shots down any possible disscussion on touchy subjects like this.

Well, guess what. I almost never use that term, but here it applays in drowes. There isn't a problem in first place. There are some assholes for sure, but there are always assholes whatever you are doing. They have it under controll. There are groups who want to protect their "womanhood" by not leting them work and those who want to protect them when they dont need help (and socially maladjusted assholes, but I already mentioned them). They have it under controll and "helping" them actually makes their life harder. Leave them be!

Only help i could see them needeng is for convention staff to actually react to complaints of presneter on harrasment by individuals. Nothing else.

 

[Saltyk]

Two days in a row Escapist. You made me regret being a part of this community for two days in a row.
Stay classy.

I cannot believe what I am reading, guys. Come on, Moviebob made some pretty compelling points here. Some of you are actually arguing with the notion that we should treat these women as people. Yes, we should treat them as people. Why? Because they are. And for all the reasons you might dehumanize somebody, "She looks pretty!" is nowhere near a good enough one.

Good work Moviebob. Ignore the haters, you're in the right here.

Spoiler: Allow me to explain.

The main part that bugs me is the impotent defense by some that tradeshow models "don't know what they are hawking." This is assumption at it's finest. I can name one person that is easily recognized by the community for her modelling appearance at E3 and PAX and is an avid gamer, Jessica Nigri. Now realize that there are other female gamers out there that are just as eye catching as Jessica, and stop assuming they don't play games. Hell, if most people on this forum met me at E3 or on the street, they would never guess what a horrible dork I am. The nerd subculture wants the old prejudice of nerd appearance to go away, but then continues to judge others by their looks when assuming if they are a member of said nerd culture.

It's not exactly a new thing. People constantly said that Morgan Webb on G4's X-Play was not a real gamer. Felicia Day has had people make similar claims about her. It seems to be a common occurrence.

Pretty girl is talking about a game and claims to work on it in some capacity? "Glorified Booth Babe."

And it's sad.

For reference:

Spoiler: Morgan Webb

Spoiler: Felicia Day

Yeah, I'm sure it's completely justified to think they may not play games. Can't think of why any reason someone would falsely accuse them of not playing games. I mean what else could they possibly do to earn money? Obviously they HAVE to lie about playing games.

I'm now curious if Dodger has ever had to deal with that sort of thing.

 

[Dr. Crawver]

2)problems should be fixed regardless of whether the issue is not isolated. As for the models, like I said, outward symptoms not main issue and the main issue that "we are not good with women" is still present given the Dragon's Crown debacle.
3) We do have inclusivity to some extent but it seems to be limited at most and championing for more people to come in should not be seen as bad even if we have this inclusivity that you speak of (we don't)
4)This is something I will admit to going overboard on but looking at general internet behavior when dealing with women's representation in games and media and it's either bile or trying to hold back the bile. Honestly, something must be done, re-education may be a bit much but something should be done.
5)It still is a common trend to fall back on these blanket statements without any sort of rational argument and I will call people out on it since it does not encourage discussion at all. In addition, cuddling people and saying that they are not sexist is not going to do anything, we have to call it when it's present and hold them accountable

2) How exactly does having attract women in a video game mean a company isn't good with women? Just because you don't like something doesn't mean women will hate it.

3) If this "inclusivity" results in talented people being replaced by less talented people to fulfil a gender or race quota then it should be opposed.

4) Again just because you don't like something doesn't mean women dislike it. You're assuming there's a problem where none exists.

5) Your post is full of blanket statements without any sort of rational argument. You claim that something needs to be done but are completely unable to prove that a problem exists or why we should be following your solution. In addition claiming that everyone with a view you don't like is sexist isn't going to fix anything.

To be fair, I'm currently studying games computing and your points on 3 and 4 are actually kinda wrong. I'm not in the industry yet, but I am hoping to be, and am working my way into it. At the moment I'm on a course with 40 other people, of which at the start only 5 of them are girls. 2 were easily running of firsts for their degree (that's the best a degree can be in England), 2 were average, running on 2-1/2-2s, and one failed. The trouble is, a significant portion of the people on the course (10 definitely, another 10 perhaps, not as clear) were definitely mistreating them. At one point one of the guys did accuse one of the girls with a first of not actually being interested in games, basically accusing her of being a fake geek girl. For a bit of context the guy who did that was doing far worse in the course. We actually had one of the mid-level girls change course because of the way people were treating her. I even got into a fight with one because my then girlfriend was dressed up in one of the sexy cosplay outfits (Harley Quinn arkham asylum. She adored harley and had been working on the costume for two months) for the gaming societies cosplay night. She's on an animating course so while she's not studying games, she did greatly enjoy games. He was really insulting to her, calling her a "slut just doing it for attention", and so of course I punched him one for it. So to simply say it's a non-issue, or we're trying to replace those fit for the jobs with those who aren't as qualified is just wrong. A certain percentage of the community do mistreat women, and there are women who are more qualified for it than some men who still get this marginalization. Just because you don't see the problem, doesn't mean it isn't there.

 

[VikingKing]

I believe that audience and consumer deceptive practices in any industry are wrong. This doesn't just involve selling things, mind you, but also in the presentation of a book, television show, movie, or video game.

To use an example, Naruto regularly shows characters being struck by other characters in fights, only to reveal it was a copy of themselves that harmlessly poofs into smoke. It's done repeatedly in fight sequences to spike tension and then let it fall right afterwards. Like they're trying to slap the audience in the face to keep them awake.

Or, to use a video game equivalent, the majority of Aliens Colonial Marines game play trailers were all about you fighting Aliens, and that was what we were promised. But a large portion of the game is actually spent fighting other human soldiers. Resulting in a Call of Duty-like experience with a Aliens paint job.

Regardless of the source or reason or medium, lying to your costumers about what you're trying to sell them is wrong. It will always be wrong and nothing is ever going to change that.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

2)problems should be fixed regardless of whether the issue is not isolated. As for the models, like I said, outward symptoms not main issue and the main issue that "we are not good with women" is still present given the Dragon's Crown debacle.
3) We do have inclusivity to some extent but it seems to be limited at most and championing for more people to come in should not be seen as bad even if we have this inclusivity that you speak of (we don't)
4)This is something I will admit to going overboard on but looking at general internet behavior when dealing with women's representation in games and media and it's either bile or trying to hold back the bile. Honestly, something must be done, re-education may be a bit much but something should be done.
5)It still is a common trend to fall back on these blanket statements without any sort of rational argument and I will call people out on it since it does not encourage discussion at all. In addition, cuddling people and saying that they are not sexist is not going to do anything, we have to call it when it's present and hold them accountable

2) How exactly does having attract women in a video game mean a company isn't good with women? Just because you don't like something doesn't mean women will hate it.

3) If this "inclusivity" results in talented people being replaced by less talented people to fulfil a gender or race quota then it should be opposed.

4) Again just because you don't like something doesn't mean women dislike it. You're assuming there's a problem where none exists.

5) Your post is full of blanket statements without any sort of rational argument. You claim that something needs to be done but are completely unable to prove that a problem exists or why we should be following your solution. In addition claiming that everyone with a view you don't like is sexist isn't going to fix anything.

To be fair, I'm currently studying games computing and your points on 3 and 4 are actually kinda wrong. I'm not in the industry yet, but I am hoping to be, and am working my way into it. At the moment I'm on a course with 40 other people, of which at the start only 5 of them are girls. 2 were easily running of firsts for their degree (that's the best a degree can be in England), 2 were average, running on 2-1/2-2s, and one failed. The trouble is, a significant portion of the people on the course (10 definitely, another 10 perhaps, not as clear) were definitely mistreating them. At one point one of the guys did accuse one of the girls with a first of not actually being interested in games, basically accusing her of being a fake geek girl. For a bit of context the guy who did that was doing far worse in the course. We actually had one of the mid-level girls change course because of the way people were treating her. I even got into a fight with one because my then girlfriend was dressed up in one of the sexy cosplay outfits (Harley Quinn arkham asylum. She adored harley and had been working on the costume for two months) for the gaming societies cosplay night. She's on an animating course so while she's not studying games, she did greatly enjoy games. He was really insulting to her, calling her a "slut just doing it for attention", and so of course I punched him one for it. So to simply say it's a non-issue, or we're trying to replace those fit for the jobs with those who aren't as qualified is just wrong. A certain percentage of the community do mistreat women, and there are women who are more qualified for it than some men who still get this marginalization. Just because you don't see the problem, doesn't mean it isn't there.

You sort of touched on one of the primary reasons for this issue (and its many incarnations), one that I see appear frequently on these forums as well, and that is quite a few of them are projecting personal insecurities. (Your anecdote of the Girl having her "gaming cred" scrutinised by a class flunker).

I can't shake the feeling that some of these folks feel threatened by this shift in attention and a lot of folks are feeling lost or that their comfort zone is being withered as a result. Worse (for them) is the changing social dynamic. A small minority probably have limited contact with women (due to any number of reasons) and feel awkward or self concious around them. But online they can let their egos loose, which usually results in redirecting their issues towards their perceived problem.

The sad thing is not all these people are hopeless despots or spiteful misogynists (though it's easy to paint them as such for convenience) but have a whole host of personal issues that are never addressed and manifest in anti-social ways. A lot of bullied individuals vent their frustrations online or within their group (directed at external groups) and I wouldn't be surprised if the dominant culture in online gaming was composed of socially ostracised individuals.

Of course, there are clear cut assholes out there... but we tend to lump cripplingly insecure people in with them. This is probably why this subject grates so much, since these people may see themselves as victims and are frustrated that everyone is ganging up on them in the only space they were comfortable in. They band together and form echo chambers that reinforce their victimised viewpoint through confirmation bias. When they meet a conflicting viewpoint they react aggressively then retreat back to the safety of the echo chamber.

There shouldn't BE victims in all this, just an established community (Gaming) being acclimated to a new self image as a genderless hobby (rather then the once wrongly perceived Boys club). It's frustrating that this grates so much.

No way around this though. These changes don't stop and wait for the delicate and fragile. The best we can do is try to be LESS hostile towards those that resist (easing the transition for some), but still be focused on pushing these changes (which will still grate on others).

And that post was longer then I expected, hope you like Waffle(-ing):

Spoiler: Mmmmm!

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

MovieBob gives us several good reasons to re-think our idea of the "Booth Babe".

Thanks for this episode Bob.

Oh, and one argument you might want to add to your hat. Since convention models are nothing new, why is it that gamers require convention models to know ANYTHING AT ALL about the product they're standing next to? Do you think the models standing next to the BMW know anything about the features of said BMW? Of course not! That's not their job! They're models not car salespersons.

And, just to be clear, that's nothing against models. I wouldn't expect the photographer who took beautiful photos of the BMW to know its features either, even if his or her photos are used for promotional purposes. It is the salesperson's job to know the feature, not anyone else's.

Thus, if a model has been hired to a gaming convention, why would you expect her to know anything about the product? That's not her job.

 

[DerangedHobo]

Why can't we have cute boys at booths? As Jim Sterling once said, if you want to have equality, HAVE SCANTILY CLAD HAVE NAKED MEN AS WELL AS SCANTILY CLAD HALF NAKED WOMEN.
Then everyone can be a little bit more uncomfortable and the feminists can shut the fuck up.

As for the whole 'booth babes look at these tits have this game' it's kinda the human condition. Sex and Violence are as human as... sex and violence. These two things have followed man ever since primitive cave dwellers and short of massive A+ SCIENCE and no ethics messing with the genome you aren't going to change that. What are the two biggest things in today's media, hell, media ever? Violence and pornography, to some extent. It's either IEDs on CNN/BBC 1 or it's late night seedy fucking on some pay per view channel and that's just television. The amount of gore and pornography which is found on the internet is just telling of how collectively fucked up the human race is so of course booth babes are going to be a thing and if it's a job why not? If it makes you uncomfortable that's on you, not them.

I feel that in this culture we have to repress that blood lust/general lust in the name of being 'civilized' when all it does is lead to repressed knee jerk reactionists, this society is already repressed enough as it is.

 

[walsfeo]

From the table top gaming industry perspective - we saw some "booth babes" in the 90's, and that's what we called them then as well.

On the one hand we thought it was cool when any woman was at the booth and could sell/demonstrate the product/game. That rocked! It was bonus if she was cute and pleasant to get along with, in the same way it was nice if the guys in the booths showered and weren't complete jerks. What always bothered me were the artificially inserted booth babes; the ones who looked around like "What a weird group of people" or worse yet as if they were appalled by what they were witnessing. Seriously, if they were only dressed as eye-candy, knew zero about the product they were trying to get you to look at, and weren't actively dressed up as a mascot/cosplay then I either felt sorry for them or was irritated by them. The ones that look comfortable in the environment? Rock on with them. Show up, have fun, get paid. Whatever works.

On the other hand, I felt exactly the same way about the folks selling floor cleaner, or whatever else, who obviously bought a booth for the wrong convention.