The Big Picture: Je Suis Charlie

[HerbertWard]

"The philosophy behind law protecting free speech is protecting it from suppression by government not by other citizen"

Hem, no ? Not even close ? French law protect freedom of speech from everything, not just government, that would be a pretty stupid law otherwise.

And we didn't wait for 3 jerks with kalashnikovs to hold freedom of speech sacred or culturally worthwhile. We did that, like, 3 centuries ago.

As for the punching up and down "rule of thumb", what a load of bollocks. Satirists are not soldiers in the army of political correctness, fighting to help ensure a better future to the oppressed minorities. They can even be conservative right wingers ! Crazy I know.

Thanks goodness humour and satire are not actually limited by that sort of twisted moral compass.

Satire is about ridiculing things because of reasons. Trying to making it something more or less than that is just pointless attempt at ideological hogging.

What may satire do?
Everything.

Thanks Kurt, that's a way better rule of thumb.

 

[JMac85]

I don't buy for a second that proper satire punches up at the powerful and not down at the powerless.

For one it means that the same joke told by a homeless man could not be told by a ceo, and that just seems arbitrary to me. It's in some way judging the value of speech by the speaker.

But really my philosophy is that good satire punches at (to simplify things) bad people and people who screw up, regardless of how much power they have.

Someone with no power can do something stupid or evil that deserves to be mocked. Beliefs and ideas should be satirized even if they're held by the 'powerless'. And on top of that I feel "it's socially taboo to mock me" is a privilege, maybe not power, maybe not a huge privilege but hey it's there.

Seriously, this. Privilege is an attitude, not a quantifiable measure of how much stuff you have or whatever. Being privileged means you expect to be treated differently than everyone else. And expecting to be immune from mockery or criticism is very much so a privileged attitude.

 

[WhiteNachos]

'south park whose eternally self satisfied creators' -it's nice to envision people you don't like as being smug, it makes it easier to justify not liking them.

And 'poor disempowered groups'? Do you mean literally poor or are you just trying to get us to feel sympathy for them? Why does being disempowered mean they can't also be worthy of scorn?

How about the KKK, or NAMLBA? They're disempowered. How about the WBC? How about gang members? How about Scientologists?

 

[WhiteNachos]

I don't buy for a second that proper satire punches up at the powerful and not down at the powerless.

For one it means that the same joke told by a homeless man could not be told by a ceo, and that just seems arbitrary to me. It's in some way judging the value of speech by the speaker.

But really my philosophy is that good satire punches at (to simplify things) bad people and people who screw up, regardless of how much power they have.

Someone with no power can do something stupid or evil that deserves to be mocked. Beliefs and ideas should be satirized even if they're held by the 'powerless'. And on top of that I feel "it's socially taboo to mock me" is a privilege, maybe not power, maybe not a huge privilege but hey it's there.

Seriously, this. Privilege is an attitude, not a quantifiable measure of how much stuff you have or whatever. Being privileged means you expect to be treated differently than everyone else. And expecting to be immune from mockery or criticism is very much so a privileged attitude.

I always took privilege to mean that you ARE treated differently, not that you expect or want to be.

 

[JMac85]

I always took privilege to mean that you ARE treated differently, not that you expect or want to be.

Ah, yes, I'm thinking "entitled".

Damn old-timey words being given new colloquial meaning!

 

[WhiteNachos]

Wait a second did you just imply that cartoon might be punching up at the privileged ethnic majority?

So racism can be OK and classified as 'punching up' if it's against the race that's in the majority? I think I might be interpreting this wrong, but is that what you were trying to argue?

 

[Azure23]

I think that most people are getting annoyed at those criticising Charlie Hebdo is because they're making arguments that basically amount to victim blaming. Given that the majority of people making these arguments are those from Tumblr and social justice crowds, them crying out against victim blaming for rape victims, but saying "Oh the cartoonists didn't deserve to get shot, but should not have made these dodgy cartoons" is hypocrisy of the highest order.

That, and the hypocrisy of crying "we should respect their culture" when they just got through a diatribe about "the patriarchy" and "rape culture" here in the West.

Criticism and respect are not mutually exclusive stances, something which a hell of a lot more gamers could stand to learn these days

Also, surely you understand the difference in pointing out negative aspects of one's own culture and an ethnocentric view of other cultures. You can respect Muslim culture while also arguing that sharia law is a deeply oppressive system for most involved. It just requires being able to hold two seperate opinions at once, mind blowing I know.

 

[Jeroenr]

First off, i must say it was good to see that all the peace marches went so peacefull.
I didn't hear any incidents worth mentioning on the news.
And that all world leaders and politicians mostly left the politics at home.

The longer lasting effects as Bob mentioned worry's me a bid.
After 9/11 airport security is still tight for example.
Now some country's are talking about the military guarding high risk locations.
In most of these country's the constitution forbid's the army to preform civil law enforcement.
suspending that law could have unwelcome effects in the long run.

 

[WhiteNachos]

Yeah, you've hit the nail on the head when it comes to power, it's an easy enough to say truisms like "punch up, not down," but it's very difficult to pin down exactly who is powerful and who isn't in our messy world

It seems like a useless standard for cases like these. If you have a gun you have power. I doubt France has the liberal gun laws of say the US but still it's theoretically possible to get that kind of power even if the government actively discriminates against you.

 

[JMac85]

Criticism and respect are not mutually exclusive stances, something which a hell of a lot more gamers could stand to learn these days

Also, surely you understand the difference in pointing out negative aspects of one's own culture and an ethnocentric view of other cultures. You can respect Muslim culture while also arguing that sharia law is a deeply oppressive system for most involved. It just requires being able to hold two seperate opinions at once, mind blowing I know.

No, I meant more along the lines that the social justice types are losing their minds over inconsequential bullshit like tacky shirts with pin-up girls, Spider-Woman's ass on a variant comic book cover, and overhearing two guys joke about "dongles" at a conference. All the while being curiously silent about real, actual institutionalized oppression against women in Muslim society. Oh, but when they do get around to finally talking about Islam, it's to nag people for having the audacity to "punch down" at a poor underprivileged minority of 1.4 billion people.

 

[Sam Squires]

Episodes like this are why you remain quite solidly my favorite content creator on the internet. Well said.

 

[WhiteNachos]

I'm really sick of that "punching up/down" bullshit when it comes to saying what jokes you're allowed to make. If you have a point to make, it shouldn't matter how "privileged" you are compared to the person or entity you're ripping on.

Well then expect people to get offended and call you things like bigot/misogynist. When you punch up you are condemning those who already empowered, it's not mean-spirited because those groups already hold social and political power.

So you can't be mean spirited while attacking people with power?

Punching down only further marginalizes minorities

So every joke made about gay people further marginalizes gay people? So you believe jokes have the power to marginalize people but doing it to "powerful" groups is OK because they have "power"? That just seems totally arbitrary. Either these jokes can do real damage or they can't, and if they do saying it's OK to damage people with power is like saying there's nothing wrong with stealing from the rich. It's still stealing.

 

[Baresark]

snip

You mentioned a single part of Obamacare that you think represents your point, but you are looking at it too simply. There are many many aspects to healthcare that you obviously don't understand. Insurance goes up across the board for everyone because it also ushered in a whole new series of mandated coverages. Before Obamacare came along, the government was already discussing making it illegal for insurance companies to turn people away with existing conditions.

Lets move onto requiring medical care. The issue is that the government is going be fining people who don't have it. If my job didn't provide me with healthcare, I would make barely too much to be subsidized in any significant way by Obamacare and then I would have to pay around $800+ a month for coverage or pay the government a fine... that is stupid as the government is then profiting off of the fact that I would not be able to afford healthcare. So that is pretty much an attack on everyone. It works great for my girlfriends mother who make $12/year working for her local church though, so that is a boon. And she should have access to affordable coverage, as everyone should.

No, I'm sorry, you are wrong because it's not that simple. Nothing is that simple. Because people don't support Obamacare entirely does not mean they hate poor people or don't feel they deserve health insurance based on your one example. That is a false dichotomy.

Onto Immigration: I said that there are exceptions such as refugee status, which is what you described in your post. You can find the TB video on your own, it's right on youtube, but he does not know why and the government is not required to tell someone, which should be a crime in itself. I didn't say deportation was common, especially from that part of the world. But there illegal immigrants who entered through the US/Mexico border, get caught, get sent back, then rinse and repeat.

That last bit was almost a stroke of troll genius. I'm all to familiar with morality of actions such as that. I put in all the other stuff because I was trying to cover all the bases that you could have possibly come at. So, since you didn't say or mean any of the things I pointed out, then you don't really have a point. You simply ignored the sentence before what you quoted because it suited your very poorly assembled arguments.

 

[Rattja]

You ever bother to stop and ask why they're being made fun of?

I have, but it does not really matter why. I just don't think mocking someone is right no matter what the situation. To me that is childish behavior or lack of understanding.
Not only that, I also think taunting the already angry, brutal and irrational people is a bad idea in general. So the fact that they are like that just makes it that much worse to poke them.
I don't know what the right thing to do would be here, but I don't think that's it. I mean have laughing at how stupid someone is ever helped anyone getting better?
I may not understand how they can think and do like they do, but the anger from being made a fool of is universal, and that I can understand.

If you can't find a way to better the situation, you should not go and make it worse.

 

[josh4president]

Bob

Hey, hey, Bob

You can punch up and down at the same time.

You have two arms.

Just wanted to remind you that it doesn't have to be only one or the other.

 

[JMac85]

Bob

Hey, hey, Bob

You can punch up and down at the same time.

You have two arms.

Just wanted to remind you that it doesn't have to be only one or the other.

Or better yet, wildly flail your arms around. That way you're punching up, down, in front, behind, to the left, to the right, and even yourself. Equal opportunity punches!

 

[Azure23]

Criticism and respect are not mutually exclusive stances, something which a hell of a lot more gamers could stand to learn these days

Also, surely you understand the difference in pointing out negative aspects of one's own culture and an ethnocentric view of other cultures. You can respect Muslim culture while also arguing that sharia law is a deeply oppressive system for most involved. It just requires being able to hold two seperate opinions at once, mind blowing I know.

No, I meant more along the lines that the social justice types are losing their minds over inconsequential bullshit like tacky shirts with pin-up girls, Spider-Woman's ass on a variant comic book cover, and overhearing two guys joke about "dongles" at a conference. All the while being curiously silent about real, actual institutionalized oppression against women in Muslim society. Oh, but when they do get around to finally talking about Islam, it's to nag people for having the audacity to "punch down" at a poor underprivileged minority of 1.4 billion people.

I see this argument repeated ad nauseum but here's the thing; advocacy is not a zero sum game. So while some people address what you call the inconsequential bullshit (which I call blatant unprofessionalism, not the spider woman thing though, I'm a big fan of that artist, his work in Italian comics is legendary) there are still a hell of a lot groups out there who make it their business to address the problems you brought up. For example there is a very large Muslim community in some parts of the UK, some of these communities have decided it is appropriate to handle criminal justice matters through sharia law. Needless to say this puts the women in these communities in a nasty situation, as in a lot of cases the choice whether to handle the matter through the more conventional (and effective and just) channels or through religious doctrine is in the hands of the men. Now I'm an advocate of choice in almost all forms, except when it comes to criminal justice. You live in a society and you tacitly agree to the social contract, including submitting yourself to the judiciary authorities of the society. There are numerous UK based aid groups who fight specifically against institutions of sharia law in these communities. As for "talking about Islam," well, third wave feminism has tried for years to find some sort of counter to thousands of years of dogma and sexist rhetoric but it's kind of a difficult solve.

 

[The Bucket]

Just to be clear here, no I do not support the terrorist, but I don't care much for people poking the bear either.

But you should poke the bear, you should scream in its ear to waken it from its slumber. No one should be immune to speech, not even the bear, ever.

Before trying to prove the bear isn't immune to speech, be sure you are immune to its claws.

I dont want to live in society where people censor themselves to suit the whims of mad men with guns. The only 'claws' any person in a civilized society should be wary of is social and legal repercussions, anyone who takes their protests beyond that isn't worth listening to.

 

[WhiteNachos]

To be honest, the more I hear about this the more it just sounds like a fight small children would have, only that there is no adult that can just grab them and pull them apart and talk some sense to them.
One keeps calling the other names, the other one hates it and gets violent. But instead of punishing them both, the one calling the other names is cheered on by everyone and actually asked to keep doing so. Do something like that in school and that is straight up bullying.

This isn't like schoolyard bullying. Those offended people can just not read the magazine and ignore that it exists.

Terrorism is wrong, but making fun of people that clearly do not like you doing so is also wrong,

I disagree, it's a magazine they can easily avoid, no one is forcing them to listen to their insults and they are free to insult them back.

Criticism can be insulting or take the form of mockery.

 

[JMac85]

I see this argument repeated ad nauseum but here's the thing; advocacy is not a zero sum game. So while some people address what you call the inconsequential bullshit (which I call blatant unprofessionalism, not the spider woman thing though, I'm a big fan of that artist, his work in Italian comics is legendary) there are still a hell of a lot groups out there who make it their business to address the problems you brought up. For example there is a very large Muslim community in some parts of the UK, some of these communities have decided it is appropriate to handle criminal justice matters through sharia law. Needless to say this puts the women in these communities in a nasty situation, as in a lot of cases the choice whether to handle the matter through the more conventional (and effective and just) channels or through religious doctrine is in the hands of the men. Now I'm an advocate of choice in almost all forms, except when it comes to criminal justice. You live in a society and you tacitly agree to the social contract, including suborning yourself to the judiciary authorities of the society. There are numerous UK based aid groups who fight specifically against institutions of sharia law in these communities. As for "talking about Islam," well, third wave feminism has tried for years to find some sort of counter to thousands of years of dogma and sexist rhetoric but it's kind of a difficult solve.

Good on those who are actually doing something to prevent the tyranny of Sharia Law from spreading. And the sad thing is, up until the 70's, the Middle East had it's shit together. Just look up some photos from Iran or Afghanistan from before the Islamic Revolution.

By main gripe is with social media slacktavists like that schmuck Jonathan McIntosh, the "brains" behind Feminist Frequency. The guy is as tactful as Fred Phelps and as misguided as jack Thompson. And he too is hopping on the "criticizing Islam is racist!" bandwagon.