The Big Picture: Link Be A Lady

[KisaiTenshi]

To be sure I think that it would be a welcome change, but I think that it needs to come with a certain degree of additional work if it's going to be anything other than a gender flip "stunt."
In other words, the first time Link shows up as a lady, the game needs to be one of the few times within the series that Link is given more personality than the gawping "Let's save Hyrule because...reasons" protagonist that he usually is.

No, I'd disagree. Making a big deal about the character's gender and choosing then to define their personality is what Other M did, and we don't want a repeat of that.

Just make the game like Nintendo would if it were Link as usual, then flip the pronouns. Nothing about it calls for anything more than that.

The problem is that Nintendo would be massively criticized for this. This happens all the time (not an established character gender swapping but a female character that the developer basically flipped a coin for) and is sometimes known as the "man with breasts" problem and has been the subject of a ton of video game criticism. Nintendo would get slammed for it.

I'm so glad you brought this up, did not feminist frequency herself decry this "trope"? Ms. Male Character, or something of the sort.

This is why it's so hard to put women in games right now, everyone seems to want a female character a certain way,and if you don't do it their way, you're a horrible misogynist. Focus on their sexuality too much, some will say you;re making a big deal of it, and call you sexist. Focus on it to little or don't consider it a factor at all, now it might as well just be a male character, you misogynist fuck.

It is a bit of a problem. Some feminists (I would bet a relatively small but loud percent) seem to want a character that is uniquely female (that is, has traits beyond the physical that identify them as undeniably female) but not stereotypically female (that is, do not have traits that are traditionally associated with being female.) It is possible to do, but also very very difficult and the definition will change from one observer to the next.

The real problem with this is that there are no real female defining features beyond the strictly physical. There are certain trends (women tend to have greater pain tolerance than men, for example) and social constructs (pink!) but those things are not inherently female anymore than blue is inherently male. All "inherently" female traits are purely physical (and there is even an argument to be made there.) Everything else is just stereotypes based mostly on social constructs.

Frankly, the "man with boobs" criticism is bizarrely sexist. It is a feminist deciding that a female characters is not stereotypically female enough and criticizing the creator for failing to conform their female character to accepted female stereotypes.

It wouldn't be such a problem if leading questions weren't always phrased as "... as a woman" because the subject then goes from being about the character to being just about their gender. That's the core problem with the lack of women in games.

Nintendo would lose absolutely nothing by genderflipping Link and/or Zelda and/or Ganon as long as the end result doesn't betray the lore "Link is aided by Zelda to find the Master Sword, the three triforce pieces, and save Hyrule from _(Ganon)_" Swapping Link and Zelda's positions in the narrative (be it you play Zelda, and Link is the help) results in a different game. Genderflipping does not, as the games have never had any heavy romance narrative to them.

Nintendo has to pay attention though. Remember the Super Princess Peach game? Here is a case of swapping the Mario and Peach's positions in the "Bowser kidnaps ___" narrative, but the game doesn't work very good (aside from being outsourced) because it seems like Nintendo told the developers to "make a game starring Peach" and gave no direction other than that. This is why the "create a new IP" argument doesn't work, because that fundamentally misunderstands the reason why there is a demand for the female protagonist. We did not need the "pink aisle" version of a Mario platformer. When Nintendo put out a Super Luigi U DLC addon for Super Mario U, they gave Luigi's stages a slightly different mechanics. Nintendo could have done the same for Peach, but hasn't. So when Super Mario 3D World was released, they finally did.

But as it turns out, Nintendo is at least paying attention to the demand. Most of the other developers don't seem too interested and would rather rush a "With a new hat" improvement to their IP, improving nothing.

 

[Rabid_meese]

Bob has really been grating on me for a while with the whole feminism issue, especially on Twitter.

I'm not a feminist. I used to, but the movement itself has gotten as toxic as the people who harassed them. That is a huge statement to make - but it's not completely unfounded. On top of that, stating that the Men's Rights Activists are evil misogynists and that YouTube personalities that are anti-feminist are some how evil gets grating. Ya know what is attractive about Feminism? Equality. Everyone, no matter what they've got swinging below the belt, or the color of their skin, deserves a fair chance. To do that, the first step is to admit that not everyone is made equally - and biology is part of that (Addendum: an example of biology is sexual dimorphism, where not only our bodies are physically different, but the chemicals in our brain. Recognizing differences is the key to overcoming them. One example I like to use is childbirth. Women can have babies, men can't. Having a child can eat years out of a womens experience in the world, as well as effect pay. How do you answer that? Extend support to both genders - Paternal and Maternal care. By forcing that as a standard, you then cut away one of the risks females have over men, which makes it a much more even playing field for women in the long run)

And what's really grating on me is the comment about how sexist gaming culture and development is. No. No more so then any other medium. In fact, I'd argue that our medium has gone leaps and bounds above culture in general. Making games based off of common cultural tropes doesn't mean you're reinforcing a non-existent patriarchy. It's all about appealing to an audience and telling a variation of a story - its a symptom of laziness. And, supposing that gaming culture IS sexist, what good would a female Link do? If sexism permeates the culture, then all it would be is an echo chamber of LOL WOMEN R INFERIOR jokes and offensive jokes. You don't change people's opinions on matters of sexism or racism by parading around a typical archetype of an icon. Obama. PEOPLE THINK HE'S FROM KENYA. STILL. STILL.

That being said, Link being a female would be interesting, but I don't see why. Changing an ingrained icon just for the hell of it or to send a message doesn't really make sense. It doesn't add or subtract anything, it just makes things different. And innovation for innovations sake is just innovation. It'd be like if they made Samus suddenly into a guy. Alright. Cool. That in no way makes a statement or means anything. Its just weird that you'd change a character after, what, 4 decades?

 

[Elberik]

I'd rather Nintendo just make a new IP rather than mess with established characters.