The Big Picture: Mutants and Masses

MovieBob

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Mutants and Masses

MovieBob goes into detail about the difference between artists and fans.

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Frostbite3789

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Jul 12, 2010
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I'm really waiting for some of these outraged fans to go Misery on Casey Hudson. It seems a lot like the route we're headed down.

Kidnapping to change the ending of your favorite series. Yep. Boy, the main antagonist in that book/movie was so well reasoned and easy to relate to, right?
 

370999

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May 17, 2010
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So once again Bob doesn't understand the difference between games and movies. And misrepresents the retake ME movement. Standard stuff from him them.
 

Frank_Sinatra_

Digs Giant Robots
Dec 30, 2008
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Bad move Bob, very, very, very, very bad move.

It's apparent that you really haven't researched into the whole Mass Effect 3 debacle, so be prepared to hear that the Mass Effect series is a special case, BioWare didn't deliver on ANY of their promises, and they pretty much slapped their own IP in the face in the last 5 minutes of their game.

Remember: BioWare has stated that their fans are equal creators in the story along with their actual writing staff.

EDIT: Before you go crying about how you're sick of people complaining, I think I should point you to THIS. [http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/the-role-of-the-player]
 

Gxas

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Sep 4, 2008
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Thank you, Bob.

I will be passing this around as well as Devin's article now. People are just pissing me off with all of the complaints about the Turtles movie. The people I've seen up in arms haven't even cared or thought about TMNT since they were five either.

It's not ruining your childhood if you forgot about it.
 

castlewise

Lord Fancypants
Jul 18, 2010
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I think the disconnect between the comics and the 90's tv show is one of the reasons the TMNT have a hard time taking off. IMHO the comics have aged better than the 90's cartoon has, and most modern incarnations of the turtles are based off the comics. Unfortunately this means people who are trying to recapture their feelings about the original show are disappointed.

I think Bob's comment about the 2003 TV show is an example of this. I watched a lot of both shows and I think that the first couple of seasons of the 2003 series were better than the 90's series. But then again I'm a big fan of the comic books too. If you went to the 2003 series looking for a modern echo of the earlier cartoon you would be let down.
 

templar1138a

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Dec 1, 2010
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Thank you. I don't care about the turtles in the slightest, but thank you for the remarks regarding Mass Effect. I have gotten so sick of all the moaning. I haven't played Mass Effect 3 yet because 1: My Xbox is broken and I need to fix it in order to import my save files and 2: I'm waiting for the game to get cheaper so I spend less overall on the game and DLCs.

But all the whining and complaining has been so aggravating to me. I even accidentally ran across a spoiler the other day that nearly brought me to tears in frustration. I happen to feel that the Mass Effect games are the best RPGs I've ever played. Are they perfect? No. But they are the best I've played because of how well they facilitate roleplaying and making me care about the characters I interact with.

I won't go into spoilers about the previous games (because even though they've been out for a while, I will show some basic courtesy to even the smallest percentage of people who haven't played them yet and are curious), but I made decisions in roleplaying during those games that I deeply regret. Those decisions will have consequences in Mass Effect 3, and that saddens me. But at the same time, I'm grateful that Bioware made the game so that could happen.

Ultimately, I don't give a flying feather about the ending because I know I'm going to enjoy the game itself. As they say, it's not the destination, it's the journey.

TL;DR: Dear Internet, shut up and get over it.
 

RaikuFA

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370999 said:
So once again Bob doesn't understand the difference between games and movies. And misrepresents the retake ME movement. Standard stuff from him them.
Considering people are demanding donations back, making death threats and making BBB complaints over it, hes a bit justified. Hes just saying those above three make all fans of something look bad.
 

Mayhemski

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Feb 21, 2012
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Still wish Michael Bay wasn't allowed to make films but that's not going to happen sadly.

Everything else I agree with. Creators have to be free to do their thing freely and also remain open to both accept and ignore criticism as they see fit. Anything else is a pseudo form of censorship.
 

Agayek

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Oct 23, 2008
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MovieBob said:
Mutants and Masses

MovieBob goes into detail about the difference between artists and fans.

Watch Video
In the interest of fairness, while the vast majority of what you have to say here is completely accurate, I feel I must mention that the FTC suit is not fans bitching about a shitty ending. It's fans bitching about false advertising. Whether or not that claim holds any water remains to be seen, I'm sure the legal system will be able to work it out, but from everything I've seen it certainly appears to be a valid complaint.
 

Orcboyphil

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Dec 25, 2008
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Bob! Please stop being such as arsehat! I generally agree with you, Retake Mass Effect is silly, but stop having such a ***** whinefest over it. If it bothers you so much just ignore it, nobody is making you sit down and read the threads or the tweets or look up the latest picture on deviant art! Just do as I do and ignore it, it real is that simple. Instead you seem to relish in showing your moral superiority and proclaim to the world that everybody else are such children and your the only adult who can show them the way to nerdvana. I don't know maybe your trying to copy Jim Sterling but you don't have the same self mocking that he does and you just come of as arrogant.
 

Roserari

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Jul 11, 2011
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Mother of god.

Bob, do some research on these damned things.

1) The turtles are New Yorkers. Born and raised in New York. If they're going to be Aliens born in New York, then why bother making them aliens? And, it has been confirmed that they are meant to be aliens. Now, here's the name of the franchise: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Mutant and Turtles, two things WRONG with the title if the Turtles are aliens. And what about Splinter? How does he fit in? Just, so many things utterly wrong with that one statement, that fans are in their right to ***** and moan about it. Which brings me to

2) The Mass Effect 3 ending was NOT what was promised to the fans. BioWare promised a fulfilling, questions answering, plot thread ending EPIC which turned out to be a badly written mess. Again, the consumers are in their rights. This time, because they were bloody LIED to.
 

BlueInkAlchemist

Ridiculously Awesome
Jun 4, 2008
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I've written about this somewhat myself, and rather than be crass and just post a link or two, I'll condense my thoughts as well as I can for you to peruse. I'm honestly shocked I have to post this again, but it seems that certain people are too busy shouting so the cheap seats can hear instead of listening to how they're sounding or what they're saying. And I'm not talking about fans.

Short version: Mr. Chipman, with all due respect on the matter of games and so-called artistic integrity, I disagree.

Stories have done the "what you choose doesn't matter" ending before, and it's been effective. Brazil and 12 Monkeys spring to mind. But those were films. These are video games. Moreover, the Mass Effect series are video games that emphasize player choice, tolerance, examinations of individuality and life itself. We are told, and invited to exemplify through gameplay, that the choices we make matter, that the direction lives take are important, and that tolerance and peace are not only possible, they are preferable to the alternatives even in our current, modern day lives. A world where different species can form friendships and even romances without any serious social implications and a man can talk about his husband in a very real and moving way is one that is definitely worth dying for.

But the endings of Mass Effect 3 are devoid of meaning. There's no sense of closure, no sense of gravity to our decisions. In the end, we're given to understand that everything we've done doesn't matter. To make everything in all three games come down to a single choice could work, if the aftermath of that choice also reflects choices we've made since the beginning. As it stands, those decisions carry no weight. It's one thing to botch the ending of a video game. It's another to ruin its replay value as a result, and another still to also destroy the replay value of the games that came before it. As a writer and a gamer, I simply cannot grok this decision.

I'm glad you say we're allowed to be upset about this, but wait: we're not allowed to feel we have a say in the process? You propose we are mere consumers and not participants? I disagree with this more than anything else you said. The Internet's instant communication and dissemination of information is accelerating the process as we, as gamers, find and refine our voices. While we'll never be able to excise every single idiot or douchebag from the community, we can minimize their impact while maximizing what matters: our investment in our entertainment. We are not mere consumers - we are patrons, and video games are the art for which we pay.

Changing the ending of a novel or film because fans didn't like it is one thing. Most directors and authors would cite artistic integrity in keeping their tales as they are. There are those who feel game developers should maintain the same standards. That doesn?t seem right to me, though. Gaming is so different from every other art form, so involving of the end user of the content, that sooner or later a different set of standards should be observed. You say that drawing a line between developers and gamers will make people take games more seriously as art; I say such behavior holds the art form back. Yes, our criticisms and opinions should be as constructive as possible in order to be heeded, but consider the possibilities if we can manage that feat. We can stop being seen as mere end-user consumers, and start participating actively in the perpetuation of this art form. To me, that's exciting and powerful.

I mean, we still have people using racist and homophobic language in the community, but hey, baby steps.
 

GamemasterAnthony

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Huh...and I just recently saw his Game Overthinker episode of Mass Effect [http://www.screwattack.com/shows/partners/game-overthinker/game-overthinker-episode-68-crass-effect]. Interesting to see the connections between ME3 and the new TMNT fan reactions.

I think he has the right idea on the fan reaction to Mass Effect 3. The only real creative control the fans have is on the choices they make...the RESULTS of those choices were still the pervue of the game writers. The fans have NO creative control over this.
 

MovieBob

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Why would you file a complaint with the FTC Bob? You weren't mislead in any way, you knew you were getting a Micheal Bay film to begin with. The whole reason we got upset is because we DIDN'T GET A NICE THING. Or is fan outrage at the perceived mishandling of a property a right only reserved for eccentric English Detectives and Light Based Superheros?

If THEY'RE free to experiment then WE'RE free to tell them exactly how we feel about the result. Consequences Bob.
Baby Tea said:
Frank_Sinatra_ said:
Remember: BioWare has stated that their fans are equal creators in the story along with their actual writing staff.
Fans are equal creators in the same way that readers of 'choose your own adventure' books are equal authors.
Read: They aren't.

"But they SAID we are!"
Yeah! And the cover of my 'Choose your own Adventure' book says I pick where the character goes!

But even IF every choice I make in the book ends up at the same, unsatisfying conclusion on the final page, the bottom line is: That's how it was written. I might not like it, and I might even feel cheated, but that's the creator's choice. I can not buy from them again, I can critique it like crazy, I can even ***** about it on the internet, but to DEMAND that a creator, that an artist CHANGE THEIR WORK because I am unsatisfied is the height of self-entitled bullshit.

No, it's not false advertising.
No, they don't owe you a thing.

Geez, I'd be happy with another bullshit 'boycott' rather than this garbage.
People need to grow up. Seriously.
Uh if the promotions for the book DID say you were going to get different endings, then yes, it IS false advertising.
 

Baby Tea

Just Ask Frankie
Sep 18, 2008
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Frank_Sinatra_ said:
Remember: BioWare has stated that their fans are equal creators in the story along with their actual writing staff.
Fans are equal creators in the same way that readers of 'choose your own adventure' books are equal authors.
Read: They aren't.

"But they SAID we are!"
Yeah! And the cover of my 'Choose your own Adventure' book says I pick where the character goes!

But even IF every choice I make in the book ends up at the same, unsatisfying conclusion on the final page, the bottom line is: That's how it was written. I might not like it, and I might even feel cheated, but that's the creator's choice. I can not buy from them again, I can critique it like crazy, I can even ***** about it on the internet, but to DEMAND that a creator, that an artist CHANGE THEIR WORK because I am unsatisfied is the height of self-entitled bullshit.

No, it's not false advertising.
No, they don't owe you a thing.

Geez, I'd be happy with another bullshit 'boycott' rather than this garbage.
People need to grow up. Seriously.
 

Piorn

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Dec 26, 2007
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As a non-American who never watched TMNT or Transformers as a child, I really can't understand all the fuss about the movies. Who cares? If the turtles-alien story makes sense in the movie, fine by me.
 

RaikuFA

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DVS BSTrD said:
Why would you file a complaint with the FTC Bob? You weren't mislead in any way, you knew you were getting a Micheal Bay film to begin with. The whole reason we got upset is because we DIDN'T GET A NICE THING. Or is fan outrage at the perceived mishandling of a property a right only reserved for eccentric English Detectives and Light Based Superheros?
Hes reffering to the ME3 fans, they're making FTC and BBB complaints over it.
 

Davroth

The shadow remains cast!
Apr 27, 2011
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I can't believe you are serious.

The amount of ignorance you display again and again is unsettling.

But, your show is still entertaining when I'm not at the receiving end of your bile, so I'll just keep watching.