The Big Picture: Mutants and Masses

[Frank_Sinatra_]

Remember: BioWare has stated that their fans are equal creators in the story along with their actual writing staff.

Fans are equal creators in the same way that readers of 'choose your own adventure' books are equal authors.
Read: They aren't.

"But they SAID we are!"
Yeah! And the cover of my 'Choose your own Adventure' book says I pick where the character goes!

But even IF every choice I make in the book ends up at the same, unsatisfying conclusion on the final page, the bottom line is: That's how it was written. I might not like it, and I might even feel cheated, but that's the creator's choice. I can not buy from them again, I can critique it like crazy, I can even ***** about it on the internet, but to DEMAND that a creator, that an artist CHANGE THEIR WORK because I am unsatisfied is the height of self-entitled bullshit.

No, it's not false advertising.
No, they don't owe you a thing.

Geez, I'd be happy with another bullshit 'boycott' rather than this garbage.
People need to grow up. Seriously.

You seem to think I agree with the FTC filing people.
Read: I DON'T (See how insulting it is when someone talks down to you?)

I actually don't demand they change the ending, what I do demand is that they try better to make a f*cking ending that makes sense and is congruous to the rest of the series. (Or at least explain themselves)

Why is it that they wrote and ending that comes completely out of left field?!

Regarding players being part of the storytelling process BlueInkAlchemist said what I'm thinking very well over on the EC forums

Spoiler: Huge wall of text

Writers can't write in a vacuum. They need feedback. They need test readers, editors, and so on. And it's highly likely that the writer's work will become altered as a result of the feedback they receive from these sources. Gaming, more than any other form of art, relies on the participation and feedback of its audience. From the moment we put our fingers on buttons, sticks, or mice at the start of a game, we have a measure of control over our experience. A well-designed game lets the player feel like they are truly a part of the world they're being shown, that their choices will help shape the events to come. In a movie or a book, there's no interaction between the observer and the observed. We experience the narrative the authors want us to experience regardless of whatever decisions we might have made differently. Video games, on the other hand, invite us to make our choices and experience the consequences for better or for worse.

Since players are a part of the building process for the narrative, it could be argued that they have just as much ownership of the story as the developers do. That isn't to say they should get a cut of the game's profits, as not everyone can render the iron sights of a gun or the glowing eyes of a dimensional horror-beast as well as a professional, who has to pay for things like training and food. A game done right, however, makes the player feel like a part of its world, and with that comes a certain feeling of entitlement.

That word's been bandied about quite a bit lately, and to be honest I don't think gamer entitlement is entirely a bad thing. The problem arises when gamers act like theirs is the only opinion that matters. Gaming is, at its best, a collaborative storytelling experience. Bad games shoulder players out of their narratives with non-interactive cutscenes or features that ruin immersion. Bad gamers scream their heads off whenever things don't go exactly the way they expect in a given story. "This sucks and so do you" is not as helpful as "I think this sucks and here's why."

As gaming continues to evolve and the line between developer and player begins to blur, it becomes more and more apparent that the old ways of judging those who create the stories we enjoy no longer apply to games. We are just as responsible for the stories being told through games as the developers are, and while games empower and encourage us to make decisions to alter the outcome, we must realize that our power in that regard is shared with the developers, and is not exclusively our own. By the same token, the onus of integrity does not solely fall on the developers. We, as participants in the story, must also hold ourselves to a standard, in providing constructive criticism, frank examination, and willingness to adapt or compromise when it comes to the narratives we come to love. Only by doing this can we blur that line between gamers and developers. Only by showing this desire to address these stories as living things in which we have a say and for the benefit of which we will work with their original creators will gamers stop coming across as spoiled brats and start to be considered a vital part of the game creation process.

 

[370999]

So once again Bob doesn't understand the difference between games and movies. And misrepresents the retake ME movement. Standard stuff from him them.

Considering people are demanding donations back, making death threats and making BBB complaints over it, hes a bit justified. Hes just saying those above three make all fans of something look bad.

That is an extreme fringe and accompanies anything which is emotional. Bob is not a man to chide others for childish outbursts, remember the whole comparison between the Transformers movies and his dogs skeleton being dug out, covered in shit and views of it sold? I do.

Also he mentions the FTC without paying any attention to why that happened. That is not about the ending being bad, that is about Bioware outright lying in interviews. They said it wouldn't be an ABC affair and it was.

OK? And? I was promised a demo of MML3 and the sales of said demo would determine if it was gonna be cancelled or not. It got canceled before the demo was released and I can't make a BBB complaint over it cause it will be thrown out, just like your ME3 complaints.

Sorry I don't understand. I don't know what MML3 is or how it relates to this

 

[krellen]

I firmly believe everything not related to survival is "art".

I therefore do not believe art is ever in danger of being destroyed. So defenders of "artistic freedom" can honestly go fuck themselves.

 

[MatsVS]

Once again Bob demonstrates an extreme unwillingness to even consider a different viewpoint than his own, much less engage with the actual arguments, as well as an abject lack of ability to do even cursory research on the subject at hand, and not to mention a tendency towards derogatory language and the overall dismissive attitude of his ill-conceived points. This attempt to create a false parallel between games and other kinds of media in the name of artistic integrity is, in a word, laughable.

Considering all the other times I have been willing to accept Bob's conclusions on issues he has raised based on premises as he has presented them, I find his insistence to further undermine the persona of an intellectual online commentator that he has spent so much time cultivating quite depressing.

 

[MB202]

With this and your "Crass Effect" episode, I LOVE the idea of putting fans in their place! Fans, no matter what form of media they come from, have got to be the most entitled, whiny, unpleasable idiots the world has ever known. Just look at the Derpy fiasco with My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic!

 

[sunburst]

The whole "fans don't own the art" thing keeps popping up even though it's stupid and has very little to do with the reality of the ME3 controversy. If BioWare changes the ending in response to fan backlash, that's on them. Fans will always loudly complain whenever anything upsets them. Hell, there are still people calling for the Star Wars prequels to be declared non-canon and remade; as far as I know, that hasn't happened yet. Consumers have the right to express displeasure with a product they've purchased and creators can respond however they deem appropriate. I agree that changing the ending of a series based on fan reaction would be the wrong choice, but it's still ultimately BioWare's choice to make.

 

[dragonswarrior]

AGH YOU DON'T GET IT YOU DON'T GET IT YOU DON'T GET IT!!!!!

*Breathes* Okay.

How. How Bob. How do fans with INTELLIGENT RESEARCHED CRITIQUES of a game asking for a Goddamn intelligent ending from a group that has previously managed to provide them with such PREVENT ARTISTS FROM TAKING RISKS?!

They don't!! How does that, I don't even... URHGU It makes no goddamn sense!!

You did make some good points though...

But seriously? Telling someone that what they do was shit doesn't stop risk taking. Asking them to change said shit into something better doesn't stop risk taking. Because people will always make risky shit. And they will always make risky quality. That will NEVER change. How does someone asking for something to be quality change that?

Which brings us to the biggest difference between TMNT and ME3. TMNT is trying to make a story with changes to the original. No one has ANY idea whether it will be good quality or not.

Mass Effect 3 had a shitty ending.

That is the difference between them.

Captcha: Face The Music

Damn straight!!

 

[Goliath100]

I find it so ironic that Bob's generation is complaining about change in TMNT when there version was watered down, butchered, badly animated. And The TMNT movie was teid to the 2003 cartoon (the better one), not the other movies.

 

[burningdragoon]

Going to avoid saying stuff about ME3...though I mostly agree with what Bob's getting at

Anyway, if you think about it, even complaining that that they can't be aliens because mutant is in the title isn't even that strong of a complaint. I mean, how many shitty movies get played on AMC. Hell, how many original television shows are on AMC. See also: MTV, RPG, KFC(>.>). Labels don't mean crap.

Of course that doesn't mean it won't be dumb. That part's understood at this point.

 

[xchurchx]

Well i wasn't expecting for this to go into a mass effect rant by the end, especially when bob admitted he never played a Mass effect game nor seen the ending, im sorry bob but when you admit these things you kind of seem like your jumping on the bandwagon. If you had played all the games i might take your words more seriously, but it seems you're defending bioware because of an artists rights, Which makes me wonder if anybody knows what art is? Bioware have the right to change it as well as keep their ground. If da vinci added or removed something from the mona lisa because people didn't like it, would it no longer be considered a master piece? If bioware change something that doesn't mean the industry can no longer be taken seriously because art evolves and video games are not just art, they're an experience.

 

[Gxas]

So once again Bob doesn't understand the difference between games and movies. And misrepresents the retake ME movement. Standard stuff from him them.

Considering people are demanding donations back, making death threats and making BBB complaints over it, hes a bit justified. Hes just saying those above three make all fans of something look bad.

That is an extreme fringe and accompanies anything which is emotional. Bob is not a man to chide others for childish outbursts, remember the whole comparison between the Transformers movies and his dogs skeleton being dug out, covered in shit and views of it sold? I do.

Also he mentions the FTC without paying any attention to why that happened. That is not about the ending being bad, that is about Bioware outright lying in interviews. They said it wouldn't be an ABC affair and it was.

Would you be able to give an example of how something that has been coded (read: prewritten) can not be an ABC affair?

DA:O and New Vegas. Now of course everyone accepts that it is always going be limited to a certain amount of choices, that's inevitable. However there was the expectations, which Bioware egged on, that we would of avoided the ending deciding everything, that it would come from the choices made in the game that culminate in the ending.

Ahh, see, I've not finished the first game, so I have no idea what is going on with the third in terms of ending or changes based on decisions. I also never, ever pay attention to interviews or anything like that, so I have no leg there. It just seems that, to me, people were expecting a butterfly effect-type ending in the sense that not doing a side-mission - let's say, for my sake, mining all of the gas nodes in the first game - would have a huge impact on the game.

From an outside viewpoint, as I see myself, the whole complaint with everything is utterly juvenile and ridiculous.

Especially the FTC/BBB complaint. Ads lie all the time, if you really look into them. Blatantly. Look at the AXE marketing. I wash with that shit every day (I really do like the smell of it) and I've never, ever had a girl all over me like the bottle/packaging/commercials/magazine ads say I will. If I were to complain, the FTC/BBB would just laugh and laugh and laugh.

 

[applesandoranges]

edit

 

[TorchofThanatos]

Bad move Bob, very, very, very, very bad move.

It's apparent that you really haven't researched into the whole Mass Effect 3 debacle, so be prepared to hear that the Mass Effect series is a special case, BioWare didn't deliver on ANY of their promises, and they pretty much slapped their own IP in the face in the last 5 minutes of their game.

Remember: BioWare has stated that their fans are equal creators in the story along with their actual writing staff.

MovieBob has it right, you are wrong!
In fact all the crying fans are wrong!
Yes, I own and played through all the ME. ME3 ending was not the greatest but it in not that bad! There is a difference between not liking the ending and it being a bad ending. The story was wrapped up and playable. It didn't end in a way you liked it! SO GET OVER IT!
Also it would be impossible to get an ending that the crazy fans wanted. The game still has one set story. One story line that you follow. It would be impossible to create an endings that reflected what your chooses were along the way. Impossible!

ME is not a special chase because it is a game you like!

Thanks MovieBob for saying this, to bad it is falling on deaf ears.

 

[Ashley Blalock]

Oh Bob with all your knowledge about movies how could you paint Hollywood as some sort of risk taker? The problem with far too many films is that Hollywood will not take risks so any film with a fair sized budget is going to be a bland and predictable as a McDonald's hamburger.

The stuff that made a series stand out in the first place so often gets ripped out to be replaced with whatever generic stuff they can cram in to be a movie for all people.

Plus I'm thinking the Turtles backlash might be the start of a backlash against everything out of Hollywood lately needing some sort of alien hook to it. Aliens or an alien connection is getting far too over done to be enjoyable anymore.

 

[Darkmantle]

man, mentioning mass effect must generate a lot of hits for you, because I came here to watch a big picture about mutants, and thought it was going to be a fun little episode. Maybe on something like, where the idea of "mutants" originated, how mutants have been used as a literary device, you know, something good.

But I guess it's too much to ask that after stating your opinion on twitter and making a game overthinker episode on it, you would do something else. Is you next movie review going to have jabs at the retake mass effect movement too?



but ultimately I agree with you, I mean, we've basically been getting the same two books ever since Arthur Conan Doyle ret-conned Holmes back to life, and many authors have listed that incident as the reason they don't want to write anything interesting, and also why books are not considered art any more.

 

[Gxas]

Once again Bob demonstrates an extreme unwillingness to even consider a different viewpoint than his own, much less engage with the actual arguments, as well as an abject lack of ability to do even cursory research on the subject at hand, and not to mention a tendency towards derogatory language and the overall dismissive attitude of his ill-conceived points. This attempt to create a false parallel between games and other kinds of media in the name of artistic integrity is, in a word, laughable.

So... What everyone else on both sides has been doing since this whole ordeal began?

 

[Sabrestar]

This post will get lost in the controversies all over this thread, but sod it, I'm posting it anyway.

Thanks for the perspective, Bob. One thing to note, though, as you touch on things I've said elsewhere: Yes, creators of stories, franchises, worlds, what have you (IP just sounds so cold and impersonal) own what they create, and not the fans. This is absolutely, unerringly true. With that said, however, although fans don't truly have an ownership stake per se, they do have a more aetherial stake in the creation as a whole, particularly insofar as it moves and inspires them, whether that is to play it more, buy more stuff, create fanfics around it, or even just promote it to their friends. That does not give us, as fans, the right to dictate where it goes. But it does mean that a wise creator keeps the fans' ideas and viewpoints in mind during the ongoing acts of creation.

It's impossible to please everyone, and whenever there's a dramatic change, be it an unexpected ending, a big shift in tone, or a world-altering WHAM Episode, a lot of people will get mad. Some will stay mad, and that's unavoidable. Some will eventually forgive, if not forget. But a creation ultimately remains alive and viable as long as fans will stand up to defend it, and a creator that ignores or heaven forbid, even outright disparages large segments of the fanbase, will find the fans falling by the wayside, and the strength of the creation along with it. This, I feel, is what's happened to George Lucas, as an example of a creator who's lost sight of the importance of the fans.

How this impacts the twin controversies brought up in this video, I'm not sure, honestly. I'm in no position to have a particularly meaningful opinion, as I'm still playing through ME1 and haven't paid attention to the Turtles in a long time. (Actually, thanks Bob for correcting a mistake of mine - I thought Bay was actually directing the movie. My mistake. That's how little I know about it.) But it's food for thought. As someone who's been both a creator and a fan, I've seen and felt both perspectives.

To speak as a fan of the closest situation I can currently relate to: I'm currently reading a webcomic that I've quickly grown hugely fond of, and the current storyline therein has suddenly turned a lot more serious, and a lot heavier, than the tone of the comic to date. It's brought out a lot of strong emotions in me, to the point that I'm deeply worried that the current plotline might well get resolved in the sort of unexpected "shocker" ending that upends everything so far, and could seal the fate of at least one major character. Suffice to say, if what I fear actually comes to pass in the story, I'll be deeply upset. I will certainly feel hurt, maybe even violated, because I feel so invested in the main character's struggles. It may well upset me enough that I'll stop reading the comic altogether. That would be a shame, because I think it's excellent.

I may even express my disappointment and my reasons for abandoning my fan status to the author. But if I do, I'll do it privately and quietly. I don't intend to raise a huge stink or demand it to be changed. It's his story to tell as he sees fit. But that also means it's mine to walk away from if I no longer gain enjoyment from it.

 

[Raijha]

Honestly, at this point, I have to agree with a number of people. I may stand a bit in the middle ground here, I absolutely disliked the way the ending was done. It felt rushed, there were plot holes EVERYWHERE and it was just in general terrible quality. But I was also able to take something from it, see where the closure was in the game, and accept that it was at least an ending, if a terrible one. I don't think it should be changed, I certainly don't think that because I paid for the game and it was advertised a certain way, (which by the way, I actually do believe that all your decisions made sense and had an effect. Just through the whole game instead of in the last 5 minutes. I personally agree with PA when they say the entire 3rd game was the END of the series, and just because you didn't get a direct effect on the 2 minute cut-scene or 5 minutes of dialogue at the very end, doesn't mean your choices in the first 2 games had no effect at all.) Point is, I certainly don't feel that I DESERVE a new ending, or that BioWare has any responsibility to make me one.

So yes, the FTC complaint, and the retake Mass Effect, a little crazy, definitely going too far.

On the other hand, this constant insulting, belittling and claiming that the gaming community, specifically Mass Effect "fanboys" from so many people in the media now is just going too far in the other extreme as well. We have every goddamn right to complain about a haphazard, last minute, disconnected terrible ending, and I don't care what anyone says, we will ALWAYS have that right without needing to be called whiny, entitled, or any of the other BS terms that have been thrown around by so many people.

Standing from where I am in the middle here, I'm honestly just insulted, and disgusted, by both sides at this point. I just want to move on, accept that the ending was terrible, but that it was their decision, and that they know that we think it was terrible, and leave it at that. Who's with me?

 

[Frank_Sinatra_]

Bad move Bob, very, very, very, very bad move.

It's apparent that you really haven't researched into the whole Mass Effect 3 debacle, so be prepared to hear that the Mass Effect series is a special case, BioWare didn't deliver on ANY of their promises, and they pretty much slapped their own IP in the face in the last 5 minutes of their game.

Remember: BioWare has stated that their fans are equal creators in the story along with their actual writing staff.

MovieBob has it right, you are wrong!
In fact all the crying fans are wrong!
Yes, I own and played through all the ME. ME3 ending was not the greatest but it in not that bad! There is a difference between not liking the ending and it being a bad ending. The story was wrapped up and playable. It didn't end in a way you liked it! SO GET OVER IT!
Also it would be impossible to get an ending that the crazy fans wanted. The game still has one set story. One story line that you follow. It would be impossible to create an endings that reflected what your chooses were along the way. Impossible!

ME is not a special chase because it is a game you like!

Thanks MovieBob for saying this, to bad it is falling on deaf ears.

I'm redirecting you to an earlier post because I don't like repeating myself [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.358098-The-Big-Picture-Mutants-and-Masses?page=2#14155298]

 

[Nimcha]

Once again Bob demonstrates an extreme unwillingness to even consider a different viewpoint than his own, much less engage with the actual arguments, as well as an abject lack of ability to do even cursory research on the subject at hand, and not to mention a tendency towards derogatory language and the overall dismissive attitude of his ill-conceived points.

That's funny, this is pretty much what I think about all those people still whining about the ME 3 ending. I spent some time explaining basic stuff to people but nobody wants to listen anymore. The nuance is completely gone. It's basically coming down to some sort of consensus; 'The ME3 ending was awful and if you don't think so you're WRONG and you can f off'.