The Big Picture: Mutants and Masses

[pirateninj4]

Yea you fucking cry-babies need to stfu about Mass Effects ending already. If I had any interest in playing that piece of shit game now it wouldn't be worth it because I already know the ending from hearing it from the mouths of the whiniest bunch of entitled babies ever.

It's a game. Get over it, move on and play something else.

On a different note, thanks Bob, you reminded me that there are better things to look forward to. GAME OF THRONES ON SUNDAY!!!

 

[I.Muir]

If video games and movies are in any way comparable then mass effect is like john carter in terms of quality alone. Unlike John carter Mass Effect found it's material elsewhere but overall was good but in some places slow and could have been so much better.
Mass effect 2 is like pirates of the Caribbean, faster paced, caters towards a bigger audience and primarily made to grab money.
Mass effect 3 is like the transformers movie. For people who feel more strongly about the game it's transformers 3, if you really feel strongly about it then it's green lantern, enough said.

Well the ending anyway

 

[Duffeknol]

Hey bob, I'mma just gonna leave this here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MlatxLP-xs

FALL UPON THE PLINKETT SWORD

hey this was pretty good, decent homage to Plinkett too

 

[PonceyMcTosserFaic]

Remember: BioWare has stated that their fans are equal creators in the story along with their actual writing staff.

Fans are equal creators in the same way that readers of 'choose your own adventure' books are equal authors.
Read: They aren't.

"But they SAID we are!"
Yeah! And the cover of my 'Choose your own Adventure' book says I pick where the character goes!

But even IF every choice I make in the book ends up at the same, unsatisfying conclusion on the final page, the bottom line is: That's how it was written. I might not like it, and I might even feel cheated, but that's the creator's choice. I can not buy from them again, I can critique it like crazy, I can even ***** about it on the internet, but to DEMAND that a creator, that an artist CHANGE THEIR WORK because I am unsatisfied is the height of self-entitled bullshit.

No, it's not false advertising.
No, they don't owe you a thing.

Geez, I'd be happy with another bullshit 'boycott' rather than this garbage.
People need to grow up. Seriously.

im with you on this one. srsly, like they're the chairman of the ESRB or something like that. stuff like this makes me wish we had other planets like earth to go to so i could be like "i'm leaving, PEACE!" and then actually leave.

 

[kingmob]

Probably too many comments to get Bob to read this, but I'll try anyway.

Bob, you need to stop giving internet outcry any importance. It is very easy to show that the loudest, stupidest, angriest people are the ones that will be the easiest to hear and the most likely to make themselves heard. It quickly follows that any outrage on the internet is of little value. You making many episodes about such outrage, just fuels these kind of people in their feelings of importance and entitlement. Of course not strongly, but you are definitely part of the bigger machine that keeps building up such hypes.
It also doesn't help that you have a tendency to link your viewers implicitly as the same people or at least the same kind of people. If you want to talk about it, I'd prefer you do it from a bigger distance, right now you keep "calling us out" for behaviour most of us won't be responsible for.
I don't like being linked to angry childmen, just like a muslim doesn't like being linked to terrorists. Just because we share a hobby, doesn't make me responsible for their behaviour. Someone in the community implying this responsibility, only gives credibility to outsiders claiming this responsibility. It makes matters worse, not better.

We see the exact same thing in politics and it is completely ruining it, please let greater minds prevail.

 

[Encentrik]

Here's the difference between movie endings and video game endings, Bob: Games are an interactive media! I can't stress that enough; the reason people are demanding a new ending are due to the consumer's right to be told the truth when it comes to their endings and not blatantly lie to them & berating them for not agreeing with their opinions. Not to mention blocking anything that doesn't agree with the ending as well as a Bioware writer allegedly speaking out about how the ending itself was not well received within the group because the lead writer and Casey Hudson did it by themselves with no one to proof read.

What really disturbs me is the fact that Bob views us as a group that didn't like the ending, so we're petitioning it. No, that'd be idiotic. We're hating the ending because it throws every decision, every conversation, every shared moment, every hard earned level, every major aspect of the games out the window in a matter of ten minutes. As I said, games are interactive and are allowed have changed endings because of DLC. That's the big difference: D.L.C. You can't have a movie or a book completely rewritten because once those two are released, a new version won't come out unless it's a director's cut in the movie's case.

DLC can allow for a new possible ending or clarification, which is ultimately what we want. We'd go as far as to settle for a fucking text scroll. When your game series, one that you've invested over 100+ hours in, decides to hamfist a new ending out of nowhere & completely ruin both the lore & not tell you anything of what happened after the events, you have every right to complain.

Filing a complaint? No, that's going too far. Petition? Sure, why not.

 

[Francis Budden-Hinds]

Yes. Extensively re-cutting highlander 2 the quickening to remove the alien subplot and please fans did indeed destroy film making as an art form. I for one am glad that radio plays and flower arranging still exist as pure creative art.

That aside, I have to laugh when people talk about how if this happens then game companies will no longer be willing to take creative risks, or that people like mass effect because it takes creative risks because...

(Alert, I'm not going to annoy a lot of mass effect fans who I'm on the same side as. I like the game too, and I think it's well told, has a good aesthetic and is over all pretty neat)

Mass Effect took almost no creative risks what so ever. There is almost nothing original in the whole series in terms of the actual lore/background/characterization. Just as an example: in Mass Effect 1 the plot is that you, an Earth Force Officer, chase a rogue romulan agent and his army of cylons controlled by an Inhibitor and try to stop them from using Babylon 5 to bring back all the other inhibitors to destroy sapient life. My companions include Dirty Harry, a barbarian guy who's not so barbarous, and someone from the Battle Star Galatica fleet. Along the way I fight the bugs from Starship Troopers.

In Mass Effect 2, I join section 31/Majestic 12 (from Deus Ex) in their quest to stop the aliens from X-com (this is a bit more disguised, but energy weapons, abductions and they have their digestive systems replaced by cybernetics? That's X-com) from abducting humans in order to build a giant terminator.

The most creative races in it are the Elchor, who don't do anything, and the Asari, who are a pretty standard oldest younger race (like the Minbari) but subverted a bit (Illium is basically meant to undermine the usual ideas about such species, similarly Liara is a centuries old schoolgirl at least in ME1.) and given sexiness as a superpower.

The Mass Effect series is so derivative that it often feels like it was created using TV Tropes.

People don't like it because it took creative risks, they like it for the opposite reason. It took a bunch of things they already liked and knew and polished them up with some fantastic art direction and some rather cool detailing, and wove them together into a narrative. It's the same appeal as say, megacrossover fanfiction, just professionally done.

 

[Jman1236]

This whole thing has gone completely insane. People think Sonic fans are insane, this whole Mass Effect 3 outrage doesn't even compare.

 

[Something Amyss]

This whole thing has gone completely insane. People think Sonic fans are insane, this whole Mass Effect 3 outrage doesn't even compare.

Mass Effect 3 fans: We were promised a dynamic, non-standard ending and it turns out we were lied to!

Sonic Fans: His EYES are the wrong colour!

...Yeah, it doesn't compare. But not for the reasons you're purporting.

 

[PuckFuppet]

While I'm not in a position to comment on the broader meaning of what has, or has not, been done to TMNJ reboot I do want to address something that was mentioned in the video about that franchise as a whole and relate that to ME3. Quoting what I'm respond to for clarity.

"Thus lacking the tired ass, pre-destination bull****"

Too true. To a point that, and that more than anything else, is why the ME3 ending is a complete departure from their (BioWares) established ethos and has solicited such a strong reaction from the fanbase.

From a plot development perspective the entire thing began a massive downward spiral the moment when, on Thessia in the build-up towards the ending, the various back-ground plot points regarding the Prothean interaction with the evolution of various species who were around during their time were suddenly dragged into the foreground and essentially formed the basis of the entire plot preceding that moment and largely changed the direction, in storytelling terms, of the entire series.

It threw prophecy into the mix and almost verbatim repeated the phrase "All of this has happened before, and it will all happen again" from Peter Pan however, having established a cyclical pattern as the primary impetus for the entire plot, that isn't necessarily a bad thing nor is it totally outside the realm of possibility. But that kind of pre-determination, while accepted as an inevitability within the construct of the plot, runs contrary to the way that the entire series has been played thus far.

To put it another way, if the ending was predetermined from the beginning and nothing the player did with one character across three games over five years was ever going to change it (I actually would have been fine with that, if the Reaper's winning had been the inevitable result, rather than the sudden edition of a whole new set of repeating patterns to explain away everything) then why did they ever bother allowing us the illusion of control?

Do I agree with the fans that the ending should be "changed"? No, as much as it was a slap in the face, it was an ending.
Do I agree with the demonisation of those fans as the harbingers of doom for artistic license? No, because I'm reasonably certain that no one is in a position to have any kind of moral high ground on this topic.

I didn't care too much for the ending, similarly I don't care too much for the way that some people have reacted. That said the fact that those fans have raised more than 50,000 dollars for charity, largely reacted in a semi-unified and reasonable manner, notable exceptions aside, and taken this will evident good humour by quickly donating to a drive to have cupcakes delivered to BioWare... can't be a bad thing.

You argue that the fanboys are being immature, I say that while some of them are, the majority of those involved seem to be comporting themselves with a kind of respect and civility that should be encouraged, not just on the internet, but everywhere in life.

 

[Ashley Blalock]

Really wish Bob had broken this into two different Big Picture episodes instead of lumping them together into one video.

If you feel like talking movies instead of video games you have to do a lot of digging to find the posts that are about the Turtles movie instead of Mass Effect 3. Given the uproar over Mass Effect 3 it's really had to have any sort of discussion about anything else when you know it's going to dominate almost the entire thread.

 

[kikage]

Reason number 4 is why, I, personally am disappointed with the ending.

http://www.gamefront.com/mass-effect-3-ending-hatred-5-reasons-the-fans-are-right/

 

[Fwee]

Just so you know:
Bioware and EA don't owe you a goddamn thing. They came out with a game and you bought it, played it, finished it, and either walked away from it or started crying all over my internet.

Internet quotes and press releases from anyone working on the Mass Effect series are not legally binding.

You should have rented it and saved yourself $55.

Plus you're detracting from real issues in modern entertainment, such as DRM control, DLC flooding, and mandatory Origin signups.

So gamers cannot express their ire at the shoddy ending of a series and we should get over it?

Well then to address your 'burning issues' in the same vein. If you don't like the DRM control attached to a game..don't buy it. If you don't like DLC flooding...don't buy the DLC and if you don't want to patronise the distributor then don't buy from them..even if that means you don't get the game.

Gaming as art is much like food as art. Certainly a chef is an artist but the eating experience is interactive; which means the customers appreciation of the chef's art is a key part of the experience.

If a restaurant's menu has 90% of it's customers throwing up, then they would probably see lawsuits...would likely offer refunds and almost certainly would change the menu. Assuming said restaurant wished to stay in business.

The idea that consumers have no right to complain because it's art is rediculous. The artist can of course stand by their creative vision but the consumer has the right to a refund if unhappy and they can also inform other potential consumers about the poor quality of the work.

Exactly. Don't buy their DLC, don't buy their games.

Games aren't art. They're a product. And if someone's unhappy about a product they have a right to voice their concerns. And they have a right to start petitions with the FTC and BBB and harass the employees hourly and start raising funds to somehow "Take Back" what they don't even own in the first place, right?
Amazon's offering a pretty good deal for anyone who's not happy with their copy of ME3. I'd suggest anyone who doesn't like the game go to them for at least most of their money back.

What I don't understand is how so many people could enjoy a game up until the ending and then turn around and demand changes. To use your restaurant analogy (and I hate analogies), if you sit down and eat a three-course meal you don't get to stand up and demand to get your money back and an entire three-course meal because the dessert wasn't up to your expectations.

And please keep getting me warned for trolling, because someone who doesn't agree with a cowardly opinion should be silenced. I should be constructive in my writing in a thread that's full of nothing but bitching? Fuck that.

And with that I'm done wasting my time with you children. All of you, not just the guy I'm quoting. You seem alright, although I wish you wouldn't use analogies to bolster a flimsy argument. Don't argue what things should be like; argue what things are.

 

[Frozengale]

So please forgive me oh wise internet guru, I will now go scourge myself because obviously in your eyes misusing a term is a horrible sin.

1. Person A says something stupid.
2. Person B highlights Person's A stupidity.
3. Person A adopts excessively defensive posture, trying desperately to cover their stupidity with sarcasm and barely-veiled insults directed at Person B.

Tragically, this is a true story.

Yes misusing one word is stupidity. Let us forget the fact that words are nothing more then abstracts to convey meaning, and the point of my little rant was to convey meaning not define words. Just because I misuse one term does not make me stupid. I'm tired of silly internet people that have to jump on someone for one simple mistake, misspelling, or misuse. How about you kindly tell them they are wrong instead of insulting them.

 

[Sutter Cane]

If there's one thing the Re-Take ME3 debate is teaching me it's that games are not and will never be art as gamers will continually refuse to treat them as such despite the vast potential of the medium.

 

[Aprilgold]

So once again Bob doesn't understand the difference between games and movies. And misrepresents the retake ME movement. Standard stuff from him them.

Bob just does shit like that, he doesn't like first person games or macho stuff, and because of that tried to say Halo was evil by saying it had Nazi undertones to it.

Every time I have seen Bob dislike something, he pics the most manipulative way of expressing it.

If I remember right it seemed like he was just trying to fit more stuff into the time-limit. So he kinda just pulled it out of his ass. It wasn't to make it seem evil just kinda to throw out that it was weird.

Maybe if more Movie-fans "whined and bitched" about the substandard products that they are sold, the Movie-industrie would start making better movies?

Strangely, he suggested doing just that. If we recall back to one of his reviews where he talks about how since Scott Pilgrim didn't do well in the box office there wouldn't be a In the Mountains of Madness movie, and that it was all to blame on the people who liked the Expendables. I can't remember what he said exactly on this but it was to some degree that people who liked it were stupid and should basically whine and ***** to get the movie made.

 

[albinoterrorist]

Please, don't assume you deserve special treatment just because Bioware managed to string you along for a full series before shitting in your bed.

Actually, you're the only one asking for someone to get special treatment. In your case, you want videogame companies to get special treatment by your weird demand for them to be excempt from what EVERY OTHER COMPANY faces.

Fans here are actually waking up and noticing that, as customers, they have some pretty basic rights, including returning products that did not meet the advertized standards, and/or demanding a fix to the problem.

It's that simple. Videogame companies are no special snowflakes. Deal with it.

Wh-what?
I'm sorry, but, What?!

You CANNOT do this to ANY form of product from an artistic industry!
You can't rewrite the new Star Wars trilogy (the prequels), because it is George Lucas's product.
You can't make Macbeth the victor mid-performance, because it is Shakespeare's (and the production's director's) product.
You can't redo David without a wang, because it is Michelangelo's product.
You can't rewrite Mass Effect, because it is Bioware's product!

Feel free to not buy their products again, after such shitty performance on bith their and Ea's parts, it's fully deserved.
However, until you are physically brought in to their studios for consultance, it is madness to believe any claims that you are "co-producers" of anything.
You have no right to rewrite their product.
By all means, return it, sell it, burn it, I don't care - just understand you will not be offered any alternatives to the ending, except on Bioware's own terms (likely as over-priced DLC).

The artistic industries do not work in the same way as other industries.
Why has it taken so long to realise this?

 

[jedizero]

Well shit. There goes all the respect I had for mister Bob Chipman. I thought he was pretty interesting to listen to, and I loved his talk about the green lantern's darkest night series. But this is just insulting.

He obviously has not even played the series in question, he has done no research, he hasn't even bothered to listen to the people who are complaining, he has instead simply decided to hide behind the 'GAMES ARE ART AND YOU SHOULD NEVER EVER EXPECT TO BE SATISFIED FROM ART' standpoint.

I'm sorry Mister Chipman that you are burdened with being so much better than the masses. there is however, a difference between the origin story about a bunch of cartoon turtles, and a three game spanning epic that has every time had a major selling point of being able to choose what happens throughout the game, and having those choices have weight and meaning. To do my best to make an analogy that you might better understand.

You have heard that this upcoming movie is going to be made and directed by the *best* director out there, you're told that he is going to ensure every part of it is absolutely perfect to the best of his ability. And it is an amazing and epic tale, striking almost all key notes a movie has to touch and instill in its viewers. Then, at the very end, at the last fifteen minutes, the director apparently had a job to do elsewhere, so he turned the ending over to his very good friend Uwe Boll. So this grand epic of a movie is ended by having some of the stupidest decisions imaginable, causing them to act totally out of character because the director lied and didn't keep his promise.

Wouldn't you be pissed off? Wouldn't you demand your money back? Hell, wouldn't you get royally pissed because this was all set to become a masterpiece of cinema, when the director decided to knock off and give the creative reigns to some idiot who thinks he's a director?

Well, guess what. Gamers can't demand their money back. If you buy a game nowadays, that's it. You own it, and nothing you can do will get you your investment back. In the world of CD-keys, online activation, and the like, returns are a thing of the past. Amazon is taking returns, which I think is hilarious and awesome. But can we take it back to walmart? No. Can we return it on Origin? No. We're stuck with it, and that's all there is to it.

The argument of 'BUT ITS ART' doesn't fly when the company creating it, isn't out to make art, they are out to make money. If you want to throw that statement around, point at some of the indie creators who are taking more chances and acting less like corporate whores. EA and Bioware are in it for the money. They may enjoy it, they may think they're doing awesome things, but ultimately they're in it for the dosh. There's nothing particularly wrong with this, some amazing things have come out of being in it strictly for the money. But if you're in it for the money, and you promise, throughout the entire game's development, and the major selling point is that all the choices you made in Mass Effect 1 and 2 are coming together to make a major impact on the ending.... And its all a load of bullshit.

Then I think you have a right to tell them that this is bullshit, and if you want us to buy another thing from you again, you have to make it better.

 

[Something Amyss]

Really wish Bob had broken this into two different Big Picture episodes instead of lumping them together into one video.

If you feel like talking movies instead of video games you have to do a lot of digging to find the posts that are about the Turtles movie instead of Mass Effect 3. Given the uproar over Mass Effect 3 it's really had to have any sort of discussion about anything else when you know it's going to dominate almost the entire thread.

You could try, rather than complaining.

It would be nice if the issues were separate episodes, though, since attempting to tie them together is either ignorant or dishonest.

Games aren't art. They're a product.

They're both, and people need to stop treating video games like they have to be one or the other. This is a scrutiny that other media does not have to deal with. People aren't suing to restrict R rated movie or explicit music arguing "it's not art."

Commerce and art are not mutually exclusive.

And to use Moviebob's example, of course he's not going to file an FTC complaint. There's no grounds. "Because things didn't turn out the way I wanted" or "Because Michael Bay is raping my childhood" are not valid reasons to file an FTC complaint.

"Because they grossly misrepresented their product" is.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is, as far as I know, not beholden to any promises or claims thus far that would impact it in a purely mercantile sense. It's probably going to suck, but we know that going in. But that alone does not translate into an FTC complaint. It's a shame that Bob is misrepresenting the Mass Effect controversy (intentionally or not) to equate the two.

But games and movies are both entities that have commercial and artistic elements. Even bad art is art, but when you sell it, you're acting in a commercial venue. And if you don't like a commercial product, you have recourse. And if you are lied to, you have different avenues. Even if Mass Effect 3 sucked, it's art. It's an artistic endeavour and a storytelling one at that. It's also a product. Regardless of it being good art or bad part, it's a product as well, and people lied about that product. This is beyond artistic license, and as such, the argument of "artistic integrity" does not apply.

But that does not mean games are not art. Nobody should claim that.