The Big Picture: Not Okay

[DarthFennec]

Wow. This Aris guy sounds like a douchebag.

I like Starcraft. I don't think I'd mind of the fighting game community turned into that. Although it most definitely won't, considering that, you know, fighting games and RTS' are two completely different things that people play for totally different reasons, neither of which have anything to do with sexism ...

 

[Mudkipith]

Rape.
There's that word again, it doesn't mean what you think it meeheeaannss~

OT: Blatant sexism and racism are rampant on both sides, so why are white teenage males the bad guys?

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

snip

You seem to have the impression I'm somehow suggesting there should be legal ramifications for offensive language. So extreme! Broaden your narrow definition of "punishment" for a bit.

Steve hangs out with some folks in Mumble when he's gaming with them. Of those folks, one guy (Charles, let's say) throws around some pretty unfriendly language. Steve and the others don't really approve and, as a result, Charles finds himself less and less frequently invited to join in their gaming sessions when they're online.

Has Charles been censored?

Oh, alright then. You were using legal punishment in your examples so I assumed that was what you were advocating.

No, Charles has not been censored, but that's a pretty weak example. One could ask whether the government is the only entity capable of censorship. My intuition is that powerful organizations such as corporations can be capable of censorship as well. For instance, if Google modified its search engine so that you couldn't look up certain things, I would say that's a form of censorship.

SLAP lawsuits might be another form of censorship. If you have enough resources you can sue someone to shut them up. Even though you know you don't have a case you also know that they don't have the resources to undergo a long legal battle. That actually happened to my father, who blew the whistle on some illicit activity at a particular college. Even though the college president promised him anonymity they still released his name to the press and sued him. Fortunately we were indemnified by the whistle blower act. If that isn't censorship then it's something equally bad. Extortion perhaps.

So what if some journalist wanted to publish a book bashing a certain corporation for shady business practices? The corporation hits him with a SLAP suit about some trivial thing and ties him up in the courts until he runs out of resources and settles. That certainly wouldn't be a good thing.

Is it censorship if some organization like the NAACP boycotts and harasses a university to fire a professor for saying something they don't agree with? Say it's a history professor who wrote a book about African American Confederate soldiers (yes there were a few, believe it or not). The idea of African American Confederate soldiers will almost certainly be offensive to a lot of people, but if the book is just a description of historical fact (i.e. doesn't make hateful or negative claims about African Americans) then is the NAACP right to try to get the professor fired, just because they don't want people writing about African American Confederates?

I'm not questioning whether people should be held accountable for what they say, (the work of the professor in the example I've given would certainly be subjected to academic scrutiny), but maybe there's a line between being held accountable for what you say and having someone actively working to silence you harassing your employer until they fire you.

 

[Treblaine]

I'd disagree that it's even a nerd culture thing to use "rape" as a synonym for defeat and domination.

That's prison slang.

Nerd culture is stuff like this:

Nerd-culture is cosplay. Roleplay. D&D. Obscure "under-appreciated" films. Not sexual violence like that, it may exist in practitioners of Nerd Culture but it doesn't come from it. A real nerd-culture encouragement would be to cram as many clever Star Wars and Princess Bride references as you could while conveniently playing The Eye of The Tiger theme tune on your android smartphone.

 

[brunothepig]

I disagree with one point. The quickfire mention of how we shouldn't be using racist, sexist and homophobic/homosexual remarks as insults. Or rather, I disagree with that in some situations. Now, in public, be that tournaments or online games, it's not appropriate. You don't know who else is playing or listening, hell, you don't know if the team you just "raped" has a member who really was raped. But this should be obvious. Online, just be respectful. Unfortunately it's not obvious, but .

However, around my mates I will call them women, sluts, hit on them, call them faggots etc. Because there's one major difference when it's just us. We're joking. And yes, I think that makes it ok. Because sexism, racism, homophobia and all the other stupid bullshit people use to try to claim superiority over others, is not a joke to them. They're serious. And I find that idea amusing, in a twisted way. What better way to weaken those positions than treat it as a joke?

So yeah, around friends I say you should say what you want. I'm not sure if Bob was talking about that too, or only publicly, but if he was, I'm afraid it's one of those rare times I do disagree with Bob.
Anyway, good episode Bob, hopefully it's a bit more fun next week!

 

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

Alright Bob, if you want to have an intelligent, mature discussion, how about you start by dropping your ranting, condescending tone?

Not trying to troll, not trying to be inflammatory, not tying to insult you. Just saying you should approach this with the same maturity you ask of us.

With that out of the way, I do have a couple of points to make.

1) I acknowledge that that sexual harassment on it's own is bad and that that coach is a moron. However, when the fighting game guy said it was part of their culture, I believe he meant general shit-talking is part of their culture. I have heard this from MANY people that the fighting game community LOVES it's shit-talking. And as long as all parties understand it's going to happen, I don't see any reason to complain about it.

2) On the topic of that broad sweep of things you said are "Not OK", I think there are many arguments to be made. First, define "Not OK" because that is an incredibly ambiguous statement. Are you saying "No one one should ever say/do this again for the rest of time"? Are you saying "This is generally bad, but can be excused"? Because the way you present it, it sounds like the first.
And even if we define THAT, we need to look at WHY these things are not ok.
Another note: Your "This isn't OK ANYWHERE" statement is just silly. If people enjoy doing something and keep it to themselves and their groups that enjoy it as well, telling them they can't do that IS censorship.

In conclusion, I think you have a decent point that the public persona of gamers should clean up their act a bit. However, I think you take too much of what people say as hate. Most of the people you are talking about don't say these things because they are hateful, they say them because they enjoy saying them. And as long as they aren't directing said things at the people who wold be offended by them, there is no reason to stop them.

I hope we can get back to the quirky comic/tv/movies are weird stuff next time...

 

[Negatempest]

*Devils Advocate*

Okay so, tea-bagging another player in Halo is now wrong and should never be done. We can all yell and say that using the word "rape" and all references to sexual dominance is wrong in competitive gaming but it is there, it will always be there. I will be the last to say that it is "okay" to be offensive like that, but I will be the first to say that it will never somehow disappear. Dominance in a competitive match will always happen in one form or another. An easy way to express such dominance is through the use of sexual language.

Heck the NFL found touchdown celebrations to be so offensive that the players could be fined for most celebratory actions. We WANT to celebrate a form of victory over the opponents and sexual imitation and sexual words are the easiest and most recognized form of insult to the opponent. I would sooner see racism and prejudice disappear completely from the face of the Earth than see sexual insults disappear from competitive gaming.

My 2 cents.

 

[Mcupobob]

You'd be surprised.

I play a lot of UMVC3, and my name is Ashley, a predominately female name in 'Merica.

You're a guy named Ashley?

ha...

Sorry I know its cause your from a different country and all that. Just Hipsters will name their son Ashley over here in the states sometimes, and Ashley is always the default name for preppy girl in movies.

OT: Good ep. Bob one of the few times I didn't feel like I was getting personally trolled by you when you do your "heavy episodes".

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

I understand your position but I reserve my right to say "gg noobs get raped" when pwning some scrubs online.

And I reserve my rights to report you to the proper authorities and/or kick you off my server. That isn't acceptable behavior, and it is sexist.

how is it sexist in the slightest? maybe you're sexist to assume rape is gender specific. and you don't dictate what is, and isn't acceptable behavior in a certain online environment, nor is it your server lol.

People can throw around dictionary definitions and technicalities of the term, "rape" all day but it won't change the reason and meaning behind why the cruder gamers actually use the term so casually.

It's all meant and rooted as a reference to homosexual slurs or sexist slurs implying their foe is gay or a woman and therefore inferior.

Or y'know, it implies that they were raped, which could happen to anybody and happens because of being overpowered and degraded regardless of sex or orientation. Doesn't it seem to make a lot more sense that people say "yah got raped" because they are trying to insult and degrade you and people who've been raped have suffered traumatic events at the hands of someone who overpowered and wrecked them as a person?

Pretty much this. While I can understand the interpretation of that term being used to imply homosexuality, if you stop to think about that for two seconds it wouldn't make any sense. See, rape takes two people, so if Guy A says to Guy B, "Yeah, get raped!" as a way to indicate Guy B is gay (and therefore inferior, according to Awexsome's line of reasoning), it actually identifies Guy A as the more likely candidate for that label given he's the one initiating the sexual encounter, as it were.

It makes no sense to think of it that way is what I'm saying.

It's just a crude way to assert dominance more than linking to any specific gender/sexuality issue, like most trash talk, really.

Agreed. Rape is not sexist simply because it involves sex. Rape can happen to both genders. People are raped in prison all the time, and it's generally understood that the person being raped is not homosexual. I don't think the problematic thing about rape is that it's sexist. The objectionable thing about rape is that it is a violent act of sexual penetration that is both physically and emotionally traumatic, regardless of the gender of the victim.

Would it be better if people went around saying "I just totally skull-f@#$ed you!" after they got a headshot? Skull-F@#$ing doesn't seem to be tied to gender, and yet (I'm going out on a limb here) I think it might be a bit more offensive than 'rape'.

 

[Sylveria]

Seriously, nerd culture based sexism is something I would seriously like to see go away. Forever.

See I found this entire video odd. It seems to me that the "nerd" community has taken the total polar opposite approach than becoming more sexist; it's become so anti-sexual that it's boarders on puritanical. There's been a number of games I've been interested in the past couple months or are due out in the near future that have been completely bombarded with claims, by the community, that they're perverted, pedophilic, sexist, disgusting, fan-servicy, and so on. Not only that, there's been some that certain internet personalities have gone as far as to say that anyone who purchases the game should be considered a sex offender. These aren't even porn games, mind you, but they are M rated games that involve some mature subject matter.

There also seems to be this huge rash of "White-Knighting" especially among male gamers to start calling stuff sexist at the drop of a hat. For example, Ivy's cleavage is sexist but Ryu's rippling waxed abs are perfectly fine? Some of Bob's previous videos on the subject and this thread right here are perfect examples of it. It makes me wonder if they are actually offended or if they're just acting that way in some bizarre attempt to impress the female gaming audience. If it's the former, really? Ivy's bust offends you? The Elin or Castanic women on TERA offend you? How sheltered must those people be in a world where sex is in almost every aspect of our culture that a bunny girl dancing or a scantily clad red woman send them into a tizzy. Do they go to the beach and try to shame all the girls in bikinis? Do they flog themselves to atone for finding that 15yr old girl in the pokadot thong bikini hot? Are they out there protesting with anti-pornography groups?. If it's the later, perhaps I'm just speaking for myself here, but as a woman, when I see someone getting all offended by digitized skin or sexuality, I find it rather unsettling. It comes off of some sort of strange sex-shaming and makes me wonder how they react to real-life sexuality.

As far as the topic of the video, I ask, if the roles were reversed; if it was a woman commenting on some guys ass, abs or his junk, would we feel bad for the poor victimized male? Would the woman be the subject of scorn for being sexist? I wonder if people would even bat an eye; she certainly wouldn't have all these people attacking her for being a perv. I'm not defending the man by any means, but there are inequalities on both sides of the issue, people just seem to ignore the inequalities that favor the women.

 

[Onomatopeia]

Probably one of, if not the best episodes of The Big Picture to date. Bob, you've managed to say and deliver what has been needed to be said in the gaming community for a long time. It's sad that it took the incident with Bakhtanians for it to happen.

I know there have been others(shoutout & kudos to Susan Arendt!) - but it has really taken your great big beautiful brain to deliver in such a derisive manner exactly how unacceptable it is. And how any of the usual arguments or justifications in response to this have absolutely no validity.

 

[X10J]

Overall, I like your points. There are certainly some points I dont see eye to eye on, mostly because realistically they won't change or aren't something that bad in the first place For example: you will not stop people from saying 'you got raped' in games. It sucks that it wont happen, but its just like people saying 'thats gay' for something stupid. And, for both cases, I dont see it as a swipe against rape victims or homosexuals, its just a word that has a stigma attached to it (which is unfortunate for 'gay', but not everyone is tolerant) thats used in conjunction with something not so pleasant. Is it bad? Yes. Does it tear us down as a culture? Yes. Will it change? Unfortunately, no.

Is your argument then that beause we can't change something that's wrong, we shouldn't acknowledge that it'swrong?

 

[daxterx2005]

well said bob

 

[Danzavare]

This is why I'm very hesitant to define myself as a part of any community. I play games. I also discuss and enjoy them with others. That being said, I don't like calling myself a gamer or classifying talk about games as 'talk between gamers'. There should be no special club or sub-sect of society that allows any of the language you described Bob. I don't want to sound like I'm part of a gaming club because I don't want to feel like I'm perpetuating the illusion that being an utter jerk is okay as long as games are involved.

This of course isn't limited to gaming. There are definitely worse groups of people out there but pointing them out doesn't somehow justify the gaming communities failings. Even among the people who game I'm sure it's a very loud minority that keep this issue going.

I'm puzzled at how outraged certain people tend to be at the idea that certain words are a no-no in the wrong context. Rape has a distinct social connotation. It is jarring and it is alienating. In no way shape of form does this word communicate a gaming experience in a way that allows for a deeper expression of a gaming experience. In no way are you a hero for attempting to redefine a word referring to brutal violation into a light-hearted gaming victory term. Using terms like this is being classless and offensive. Refusing to change or expand your vocabulary a little is just rebelling against good sense and common decency.

I sometimes smack talk in games with friends. Somehow (perhaps with the aid of voodoo) I've managed to do it effectively by focusing on their skill (or lack thereof) at a game, without needing to sound like an offensive moron.

Theoretically it seems like a relatively simple issue to solve. Use appropriate words (And really, there's a lot of them, if you think they're few and far between then you need to study basic language and communication) and focus your taunts on your opponent's skill. It's really not that hard.

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

Not Okay

Bob takes on nerd sexism.

Watch Video

A good ep Bob, and I even agree with you. For sure. I've done the humanities degree thing, studied feminism for a good solid year, studied sociology under a feminist. Few things that stuck out for me, and I do hope you give this a read:

1) Your liberal opinion is, while contrary to the racist/homophobic/sexist sub-culture (and sub-par sub-culture) of some video games, is not especially unusual or unrepresented. I get you want to attack back, but your position of getting angry at a lack of tolerance is quite common, one could even argue it is the common societal standard we are all meant to adhere to now. Dissent from this orthodoxy is ridiculed.

2) Such "wading-in" does not actually change the opinions of the problematic group, or educate them. Time and other encounters provoking thought might, but this doesn't end what you dislike, it is a little more ingrained than that.

3) Connecting one to two via three, I would argue that you can push a liberal agenda, try to brow-beat the intolerant, publicly shame them, but this will only cause more reaction online, a greater show of what you hate. This is because the mockers can be anonymous and get away with it. If you argue against sexism, there will still be sexism, as inexcusable as it is.

So to make it more straight-forward, trying to push people to have your views and to turn away from their own, which are being vilified by you, now on the offence, risks really making them more hardline. It is a reaction to force, to pressure. Any force, body or idea trying to impose itself will face reactionism. Resistance by actors damn certain they do not want to change and be mentally/culturally re-fashioned along the opinions of another. In this video you claim it is not okay, you are calling for assimilation of prejudice into tolerance and fair-play. They won't go along with it.

Sigh, trying to shame the racists, sexists and homophobes really makes them troll harder. Also, they become convinced that they are under threat (they are under pressure and are being subject to moralising) and stick to their guns of hate all the more adamantly. We can all have more progressive and inclusive opinions, but to try and force such upon others will get resistance. The liberal left always thinks it has a moral right to do so, and you are even trying to push such ideas into entertainment. As people game at home, and act like dicks. Do you intend to continue to shame these little sub-cultures until they change? What if it doesn't change radically over decades of time? What if anonymous in-game racism/sexism/homophobia never goes away precisely because moralisers keep trying to end dissent to the ideas of liberal society?

Good talking to you Bob.


Trev,

 

[nothingspringstomind]

Bob Chipman, i salute you.

I don't play online games much precisely because of the racism, homophobia and sexism that get's thrown all over the digital playing fields. There's only so many minutes i can spend muting new players when i have a k/d or win/loss ratio to keep up.

 

[spacecowboy86]

I usually try to stay out of this stuff because I'm not particularly good at defending my opinions, I just end up ashamed and humiliated, but now you made me feel guilty for not addressing the problem and yelling at people for bigotry. Why are you doing this to me Bob?!?!

 

[Onomatopeia]

I'm not sure you know what derisive means, or at least I hope you don't, since derisive rants are bad at getting taken seriously.

Basicly, Bob is saying don't be a dick. I should hope most know that piece of advice; Your heroworship might be a tad exaggerated

I hesitated over whether that was the correct use of the word, but laziness kicked in before I consolidated the correct term prior to posting. Thanks for not letting it slide