The Big Picture: Not Okay

Okysho

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Sep 12, 2010
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I agree, rock on bob! Seriously! I can't believe there are people trying to justify this... I haven't seen the clip in quesiton myself, but what the hell is this guy trying to justify?

Love the ending statement there too bob! This is why I watch your show.
 

Panorama

Carry on Jeeves
Dec 7, 2010
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Can i start with BOOM!!

Thank you bob, it might just draw you some more traffic, probably less then pc gaming is dead but still probably quite hefty. I feel i agree with pretty much everything and have nothing to add.
 

PsychedelicDiamond

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Woah... i'm not really familiar with the fighting game community but... is sexism really such a big problem there? That's disturbing. Now, i never really got to see any sort of misoginy in any gaming community (probably because i only frequent sites with such a great and tolerant community such as The Escapist... aww) but if that's an issue, well, it really shouldn't be. I have no idea why anyone should have any sort of aversion to women, it doesn't make sense and we should be smarter than that.
 

Alloflifedecays

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So glad to see this brought up. The sexism a lot of girls in nerd culture face is horrific - mostly because it's still pretty dominated by socially awkward beta males who've built up a seething resentment towards the women who never talked to them. But yeah, the childish, churlish, socially reactionary "boys' club" mentality needs stomping out hard.
 

flying_whimsy

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This is probably the most pissed off I've ever heard movie bob sound; I don't blame him, either, as I've said the exact same thing on more than one occasion over the last few years. I remember calling some friends out on throwing the word rape around more casually than I was comfortable with and they looked at me like I grew a second head.

Seriously, nerd culture based sexism is something I would seriously like to see go away. Forever.
 

aeric90

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Mar 31, 2010
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...and continuing with "Heavy Week" on the Escapist...

Very well spoken, Bob. This should be viewed by practically everyone on the internet.
 

Scarim Coral

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Ok I must of been under some rock since I never heard of Aris constrosity let alone the whole Cross Assult show.
So against sexism is something you do know or is it next week is suppose to be stuff you are know alot of?
 

Lono Shrugged

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I agree, I am sick of all these guys posting pictures of female celebs in their videos and leering over them or only mentioning them in relation to their attraction and not their acting talents or intelligence or anything.
 
Dec 14, 2009
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PsychedelicDiamond said:
Woah... i'm not really familiar with the fighting game community but... is sexism really such a big problem there? That's disturbing. Now, i never really got to see any sort of misoginy in any gaming community (probably because i only frequent sites with such a great and tolerant community such as The Escapist... aww) but if that's an issue, well, it really shouldn't be. I have no idea why anyone should have any sort of aversion to women, it doesn't make sense and we should be smarter than that.
You'd be surprised.

I play a lot of UMVC3, and my name is Ashley, a predominately female name in 'Merica.

The amount of crap I get from guys who think I'm a girl is astounding, especially when I whoop their arses.

OT: Hey Bob, whose awesome? You're awesome.
 

Otaku World Order

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Gotta say, as someone who plays a lot of fighting games, I'm kinda offended that some idiot thinks that a) the community has sexual harassment as one of it's founding principles and b) that that's a good thing.

Thanks for making us look like assholes, Bakhtanian... Dumbass.
 

templar1138a

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I tip my hat to you, sir.

Seriously, thank you. I don't always agree with you (such as your historically based argument for justifying double standards regarding race; I feel that true equality can only be brought by acts of true equality, not retribution for previous acts), but you construct your arguments well. And I truly appreciate it when you apply that ability to arguments I agree with and/or something that HAS to be said.

And I hate to admit it, but I've had my own way of shrugging off sexism and other intolerance within Geek culture: By saying "Ugh, but I'm not that kind of geek. I'm better than they are. They just won't get anywhere with their lives."
 

RaikuFA

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Wanna know what else is considered acceptable in the community?

Not allowing newcomers to play as if letting them play will make everyone else in the FGC's Battle Royale collar explode.

Stay classy, FGC, stay classy.
 

CronoT

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May 15, 2010
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I tend to avoid and criticize pro-gaming, and this is one of the major reasons for doing so. With the rare exception, the personality of most "Professional Gamers" can be summed up in the term douchebag.

These are the same kind of people that tend to get thrown out of team sports, precisely because no one wants to be playing with them, because they either make the rest of the team look bad by proxy, or end up blaming the team for their failure.

In overall classlessness, this is like when Tom Brady's wife blamed the rest of the Patriots team for her husband not winning the Super Bowl this year.
 

NinjaDeathSlap

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Feb 20, 2011
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This was the best episode in a while. Pretty much everything that needs saying about nerd culture is here. Just replace 'women' with any other subject matter and its pretty much 100% interchangeable.

Although, in defense of the 'Why are we even talking about this?' argument, I don't think that necessarily means people don't want to admit that these problems exist, more just 'Why is it my responsibility to tell these assholes to grow up? Why can't I just be free to not be associated with them?'
 

WanderingFool

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Bob, while we may not see eye to eye on different subject, I am fully, 100% backing you on this subject.

RoseArch said:
Then why hasn't there been a FemBob yet in your TGO series?
Do... do you really want to see a female version of Bob?
 

Xenowolf

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Amen to that, one of the reasons why I often tend to avoid multiplayer gaming (and I'm not even a girl). I can't help but be slightly ashamed to be a geek/gamer whenever I hear about this.

On another note, wasn't there a thread here about a week ago about that specific incident?
 

CitySquirrel

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I love you, Movie Bob! I have not really commented on anything in a while but this forced me to come back and say what a great job you do in general, even when I disagree with your premise. (in this case, I do not)
 

Jinjiro

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Apr 20, 2008
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Jesus, I had heard a little about this, but wasn't aware of the whole kerfuffle. Bakhtanian sounds like he's trying to be the representative for /v/ - his justification for his own misogynist behaviour is laughably horrendous. It makes me wonder if the problem of sexism isn't circulated and even exacerbated by peer pressure in a heavily male-dominated culture. We need more people who are willing to stand up and challenge the attitude, even if everyone else in the room is an Aris clone.

Great video, Bob - needed saying.
 

Qitz

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Rea: You know what it is, to be honest with you? We?re getting older. Do you really want to keep hanging around with a bunch of [guys in their] early 20s who don?t know how to treat one another with respect? That?s what it is.

Bakhtanians: Alright, man. The thing is...if you don?t like the scene, how it is right now, it just seems like you?re trying to create...turn it into something that it?s not, and it?s never going to be. You know what I mean?

Rea: That?s really unfortunate [inaudible]...the way it is right now, they want to enjoy fighting games, but they?re so incredibly turned off by [the language].

Bakhtanians: This doesn?t involve me, Jared, I don?t know if you can hear me--this is Aris. This doesn?t really involve me, but if you don?t like onions, you get your sandwich without onions, man. I mean, this is the fighting game community.

Rea: Can I get my Street Fighter without sexual harassment?

Bakhtanians: You can?t. You can?t because they?re one and the same thing. This is a community that?s, you know, 15 or 20 years old, and the sexual harassment is part of a culture, and if you remove that from the fighting game community, it?s not the fighting game community--it?s StarCraft. There?s nothing wrong with StarCraft if you enjoy it, and there?s nothing wrong with anything about eSports, but why would you want just one flavor of ice cream, you know? There?s eSports for people who like eSports, and there?s fighting games for people who like spicy food and like to have fun. There?s no reason to turn them into the same thing, you know?

You can?t go to the NBA and say ?hey, I like basketball, but I don?t want them to play with a basketball, I want them to play with a football.? It just doesn?t...it doesn?t make sense to have that attitude, you know? These things are established for years. That would be like someone from the fighting game community going over to StarCraft and trying to say ?hey, StarCraft, you guys are too soft, let?s start making sexual harassment jokes to each other on StarCraft.? That?s not cool, people wouldn?t like that. StarCraft isn?t like that. People would get defensive, and that?s what you?re trying to do the fighting game community, and it?s not right. It?s ethically wrong.

I know that you?re thinking ?what do you know about ethics? You say racial stuff and sexist stuff.? But those are jokes and if you were really a member of the fighting game community, you would know that. You would know that these are jokes.

Rea: So, ensuring that we alienate any and all female viewers...that?s the ethical thing to do?

Bakhtanians: Well, you know, there are layers here, if you think about this. There are layers of ethics. There are people who are racist and commit hate crimes, right? And then there are people who are racist but they have tons of friends of all colors and they have deep love for those friends. Do you think those people are one and the same? Absolutely not.
I understand that I said some controversial statements on the Cross Assault show, and a lot of people are deeply offended with what was said. When I made these statements, I was very heated as I felt that the culture of a scene I have been a part of for over 15 years was being threatened. I unfortunately used extreme examples in the heat of the moment and feel that my statements don?t actually communicate how I feel. This is similar to what people say when they get into an argument with their girlfriend, and they say things that they deeply regret. I sincerely apologise if I have offended anyone. My statements do not reflect those of Capcom or myself. The last thing I want to do is get them in trouble for giving me and the fighting game community the opportunity to have an amazing show like this.

What I was trying to communicate is that mild hostility has always been a defining characteristic of the fighting game scene. Back when arcades were more prevalent, people didn?t like newcomers, and players needed to fight and pay their dues to get respect. The debate I was in was with a person who supported professional leagues, who have intent to censor the community to make it more accessible. I think the sink or swim mentality is something that defined our culture, and if that succeeds it removes something which has been important to help create some of the best fighting game players of our time. I was unfortunately unable to make this point clearly. Again, I am deeply sorry for offending anyone. This was a combination of the people taking things out of context and my own inability in the heat of the moment to defend myself and the community I have loved for over 15 years.

I find it funny how they used Starcraft as a bad thing. What's bad about it? From most competitions I've seen they tend to get along pretty well, even when they cheese the hell out of each other.

It's a good thing these guys put themselves out though. That way you can smack some of that BS down, which they need to do some more.
 

Zenron

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May 11, 2010
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Great video Bob, I was really quite annoyed when I heard this story the other week, and I completely agree with your points here. Especially about free speech. I've never understood why people think the right to free speech means they're allowed to be an arsehole to people without consequence.
 

Windu23

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PsychedelicDiamond said:
Woah... i'm not really familiar with the fighting game community but... is sexism really such a big problem there? That's disturbing. Now, i never really got to see any sort of misoginy in any gaming community (probably because i only frequent sites with such a great and tolerant community such as The Escapist... aww) but if that's an issue, well, it really shouldn't be. I have no idea why anyone should have any sort of aversion to women, it doesn't make sense and we should be smarter than that.
Getting "ragged on" in general happens all the time in the FGC. The issue is that these guys grew up in the arcade, where they were surrounded by peers and able to say these things to each other with little more repercussion than getting beat in the next match.

UltraDavid, someone who could be considered a leader in the fighting game community, did a fantastic write-up that touched on this topic on shoryuken.com. True, the main topic is fighting games as esports, but the argument for why this sort of thing happens in the fighting game community is pretty well explained. It's LONG AS HELL and can be found here [http://shoryuken.com/2011/12/12/guest-editorial-momentum-matters-a-historical-perspective-on-the-fgc-and-esports-communities-2/].

I've met Aris. He's a decent guy. I've also been to fighting game tournaments before they got as big as they are now. Racism, sexism, homophobia, and general dickish behaviour does go on. To be blunt, it is currently part of the culture, because of where it originated. But there are those who recognize that this needs to change, and the changes are happening. The FGC has some growing to do, and not all of it is going to be painless.
 

Uber Waddles

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Overall, I like your points. There are certainly some points I dont see eye to eye on, mostly because realistically they won't change or aren't something that bad in the first place For example: you will not stop people from saying 'you got raped' in games. It sucks that it wont happen, but its just like people saying 'thats gay' for something stupid. And, for both cases, I dont see it as a swipe against rape victims or homosexuals, its just a word that has a stigma attached to it (which is unfortunate for 'gay', but not everyone is tolerant) thats used in conjunction with something not so pleasant. Is it bad? Yes. Does it tear us down as a culture? Yes. Will it change? Unfortunately, no.

Part of the reason things will never change is because as a community, we are fractured. We all belong to the same community, but a large portion (mostly on the younger side, but there are quite a few naive older people) don't act like they are part of the community. They don't care about the community as a whole, standards we'd like to uphold, or making the medium better. They're just there cause its the cool thing to do, explosions are cool, or for sheer, mind melting entertainment. Thats never going away either.

I was kind of disappointed in this episode though. When I read that you would be taking on the sexism in nerd culture, I thought this would be more indepth. Maybe even delve into why, as a culture, Gamers and the Internet demean women to the point of objects because we fear their presence in a place we dominate. Or perhaps go into other issues. I just thought it would be deeper, and it really enticed me to see what you would have to say on this.

It was a great episode, don't get me wrong. I just wish it had more meat on it. I LOVE your funny/odd episodes Bob, but I like these serious ones just as much. I'm probably not the only one either, just keep that in mind.
 

GaltarDude1138

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I don't dig out this clip often, but when I do...

[youtube=whytAReStUQ&feature=related




...it's usually warranted.

OT: I agree on the position that "rape" should never be used as a synonym for "failure", but I feel it's pretty well-ingrained in not only the annoying 13-year old population, but also in older-age gamers as well. I don't know if we'll ever get rid of it.
 

Windu23

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Qitz said:
Rea: You know what it is, to be honest with you? We?re getting older. Do you really want to keep hanging around with a bunch of [guys in their] early 20s who don?t know how to treat one another with respect? That?s what it is.

Bakhtanians: Alright, man. The thing is...if you don?t like the scene, how it is right now, it just seems like you?re trying to create...turn it into something that it?s not, and it?s never going to be. You know what I mean?

Rea: That?s really unfortunate [inaudible]...the way it is right now, they want to enjoy fighting games, but they?re so incredibly turned off by [the language].

Bakhtanians: This doesn?t involve me, Jared, I don?t know if you can hear me--this is Aris. This doesn?t really involve me, but if you don?t like onions, you get your sandwich without onions, man. I mean, this is the fighting game community.

Rea: Can I get my Street Fighter without sexual harassment?

Bakhtanians: You can?t. You can?t because they?re one and the same thing. This is a community that?s, you know, 15 or 20 years old, and the sexual harassment is part of a culture, and if you remove that from the fighting game community, it?s not the fighting game community--it?s StarCraft. There?s nothing wrong with StarCraft if you enjoy it, and there?s nothing wrong with anything about eSports, but why would you want just one flavor of ice cream, you know? There?s eSports for people who like eSports, and there?s fighting games for people who like spicy food and like to have fun. There?s no reason to turn them into the same thing, you know?

You can?t go to the NBA and say ?hey, I like basketball, but I don?t want them to play with a basketball, I want them to play with a football.? It just doesn?t...it doesn?t make sense to have that attitude, you know? These things are established for years. That would be like someone from the fighting game community going over to StarCraft and trying to say ?hey, StarCraft, you guys are too soft, let?s start making sexual harassment jokes to each other on StarCraft.? That?s not cool, people wouldn?t like that. StarCraft isn?t like that. People would get defensive, and that?s what you?re trying to do the fighting game community, and it?s not right. It?s ethically wrong.

I know that you?re thinking ?what do you know about ethics? You say racial stuff and sexist stuff.? But those are jokes and if you were really a member of the fighting game community, you would know that. You would know that these are jokes.

Rea: So, ensuring that we alienate any and all female viewers...that?s the ethical thing to do?

Bakhtanians: Well, you know, there are layers here, if you think about this. There are layers of ethics. There are people who are racist and commit hate crimes, right? And then there are people who are racist but they have tons of friends of all colors and they have deep love for those friends. Do you think those people are one and the same? Absolutely not.
I understand that I said some controversial statements on the Cross Assault show, and a lot of people are deeply offended with what was said. When I made these statements, I was very heated as I felt that the culture of a scene I have been a part of for over 15 years was being threatened. I unfortunately used extreme examples in the heat of the moment and feel that my statements don?t actually communicate how I feel. This is similar to what people say when they get into an argument with their girlfriend, and they say things that they deeply regret. I sincerely apologise if I have offended anyone. My statements do not reflect those of Capcom or myself. The last thing I want to do is get them in trouble for giving me and the fighting game community the opportunity to have an amazing show like this.

What I was trying to communicate is that mild hostility has always been a defining characteristic of the fighting game scene. Back when arcades were more prevalent, people didn?t like newcomers, and players needed to fight and pay their dues to get respect. The debate I was in was with a person who supported professional leagues, who have intent to censor the community to make it more accessible. I think the sink or swim mentality is something that defined our culture, and if that succeeds it removes something which has been important to help create some of the best fighting game players of our time. I was unfortunately unable to make this point clearly. Again, I am deeply sorry for offending anyone. This was a combination of the people taking things out of context and my own inability in the heat of the moment to defend myself and the community I have loved for over 15 years.

I find it funny how they used Starcraft as a bad thing. What's bad about it? From most competitions I've seen they tend to get along pretty well, even when they cheese the hell out of each other.

It's a good thing these guys put themselves out though. That way you can smack some of that BS down, which they need to do some more.
It's because the Starcraft community and FGC are diametrically opposed. When people talk about making fighting games into an esport, they always say things like "why can't you be more like those Starcraft guys" and that makes the members of the FGC feel marginalized. They fought (no pun) to get where they are with, really, little to no outside help. The FGC is really homegrown, and when you have that much devoted into something, people coming in to mess with that feels deeply wrong, and they get very territorial.

I feel the need to point to this article [http://shoryuken.com/2011/12/12/guest-editorial-momentum-matters-a-historical-perspective-on-the-fgc-and-esports-communities-2/] again to better illustrate that point, because I'm just not as well versed in the finer details as others.
 

cynicalsaint1

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Apr 1, 2010
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Thank you for that rant Bob!

I can't say how disgusted I felt when I first heard this bit of news; as someone who likes fighting games I really don't want to be associated with this kind of BS.
 

castlewise

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Jul 18, 2010
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I agree. Sexism or racism isn't defined by how you think so much as by your actions. I think if you make sexist jokes which cause women discomfort and grief then you are, by definition, sexist. Whether you think of yourself as sexist or not is a different story. Mediocre bad guys almost never think of themselves as bad guys.

On a different note: Its interesting to see how this matches up with your political correctness video. Its not that they are incompatible by any means. Its just that watching those two videos gives a sense of the sometimes narrow region in between being an ass and being politically incorrect.
 

wizzy555

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Uber Waddles said:
Part of the reason things will never change is because as a community, we are fractured. We all belong to the same community, but a large portion (mostly on the younger side, but there are quite a few naive older people) don't act like they are part of the community. They don't care about the community as a whole, standards we'd like to uphold, or making the medium better. They're just there cause its the cool thing to do, explosions are cool, or for sheer, mind melting entertainment. Thats never going away either.
Why should they? If entry into the gaming community is defined as playing video games why should they care about anything except playing the games they want to play.
 

theSteamSupported

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Somehow, I think this attitude inside of the community is what's causing so many games to include unnecessary cheesecake fan service, unfortunate subtexts and crude stereotypes.

I presume that if those attitudes didn't exist, I wouldn't be as nervous and anxious over a game like Extreme Beach Volleyball.
 

PingoBlack

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Aug 6, 2011
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Thank you, Bob.

I once scolded a person in my guild for exactly what you mentioned. And I was really glad my guild joined me in not letting any excuse for such behavior fly.

I hope this attitude you so eloquently presented spreads ALL over the internet.
 

castlewise

Lord Fancypants
Jul 18, 2010
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wizzy555 said:
Uber Waddles said:
Part of the reason things will never change is because as a community, we are fractured. We all belong to the same community, but a large portion (mostly on the younger side, but there are quite a few naive older people) don't act like they are part of the community. They don't care about the community as a whole, standards we'd like to uphold, or making the medium better. They're just there cause its the cool thing to do, explosions are cool, or for sheer, mind melting entertainment. Thats never going away either.
Why should they? If entry into the gaming community is defined as playing video games why should they care about anything except playing the games they want to play.
But entry into the video gaming community isnt defined as playing video games. There are plenty of people who play video games, everything from solitaire to angry birds to halo, which don't view themselves as gamers. Being a part of the community means more than you like to play games.
 

Mister K

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I cannot say that I've been watching over FGC for a long time (to tell the truth, I started watching matches only when SF4 came out), but I must say, that IMHO there are 2 groups with MAJOR differences between them: Professionals and, well, lets, call us usuals.

Usuals are guys who either play for fun or play to win via shameless tactics (projectile spamming is only one example) and the main threat comes from latter, because they take this stuff to seriously and publicly rage and swear and call those who lost to them newbs and those who won (insert swearing here). There are guys and girls like this in every gaming community, where there is at least some form of multiplayer.

Professionals, on the other hand, are Guys (yes, from capital) like Combofiend, Gootecks and Ultra David, who know how to play the game and play at competitive scene. They tend to act mature towards their game. I cannot say that they do not rage, but if they do, their rage is not directed towards person, but rather is just burst of emotions. Aris is but exeption from the rule and even so, inbefore this incident, he always acted like offensive, but charming guy. It is yet for me to see the footage that is the subject of this discussion, though.

What I mean to say is that I refuse to name ragers as part of community. Do not make your assumptions based on their behavior. They do not represent what it truly is: the community of guys that really like their game and greet every newcomer with open arms.

I am not saying that my words are ultimate truth, but that is my opinion.
 

Ashley Blalock

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Too bad it's not a high traffic topic because it's a damn good topic.

Really no need for the geek culture to be only white middle class and overly straight. Girls can bring a lot to geek culture so it's rather shameful when part of geek culture wants to be some version of the He Man Woman Hater's Club from the Three Stooges or the Little Rascals.

I've got no problem with saying a female gamer kicked my ass at a game because some of the girls playing games these days have some amazing skills at those games. Doesn't make me any less of a man to say the more skilled player beat me fair and square, even if that player doesn't pee standing up.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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I disagree with the idea that this coach using sexual harassment as a way of "motivating" his player has to anything to do with the gaming culture. Did this happen at a gaming event? Sure, but it also happens every day in EVERY SPORT.

Back when I did waterpolo in high school I had a coach like this my freshman year whose "motivational" skills went as far as calling everyone on the team "pansy ass faggots" and throwing chairs in the pool from frustration if our team ever got scored on. I've heard similar stories from friends I've had who played other sports, and this was especially prevalent in our wrestling coach.

So yeah, this isn't a problem endemic to gaming or the "fighting game culture" as this asshole claims, it's a part of sports in general and the idea that coaches have put in their heads that they somehow own their players and can treat them like crap.
 

Uber Waddles

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wizzy555 said:
Uber Waddles said:
Part of the reason things will never change is because as a community, we are fractured. We all belong to the same community, but a large portion (mostly on the younger side, but there are quite a few naive older people) don't act like they are part of the community. They don't care about the community as a whole, standards we'd like to uphold, or making the medium better. They're just there cause its the cool thing to do, explosions are cool, or for sheer, mind melting entertainment. Thats never going away either.
Why should they? If entry into the gaming community is defined as playing video games why should they care about anything except playing the games they want to play.
Well, for one, I never said they should. But if you want an honest answer, I'll give you one.

We should care because it matters. In every sense you can think of. You like playing videogames? Without a strong community, you get game developers who walk all over their client base. They can do various things, restricting DRM seems to be the top gunner right now. A more recent example is the scrutiny that BioWare is under for the "From Ashes" DLC, which was finished pre-production, and is being sold for $10 instead of included with new copies of the game (like previous DLC's). This DLC pack includes plot points, so if you didnt get the Collectors edition, and you want to get the most out of the game, you're gonna sink an extra $10.

And who do you think fights against those practices? Not all of the boycotts are successful, mostly because of the mentioned fracturing, but a lot of companies will reconsider consumer-unfriendly concepts due to massive backlash. A strong community stops ALL of us from getting trampled on with.

Also, I'm pretty sure that since you like playing Videogames, you probably don't want to see them taxed for being violent? How about censored based on content? Or making M rated videogames banned from commercial store shelves? All legislation that has fallen over the last two years because people decided to get vocal. Even if you just like playing the mindless rot that most of the collected community hates, its the community that stands up for your right to play it, the way the developer wanted you to play it, without anyone saying "thats not fit, get rid of it".

And it kinda really hurts the community that the loud minority are the people that don't really care for gaming as a whole. You won't see the Frat Bro's who play CoD get up in arms over a tax on violent videogames, or unfriendly consumer practices. The issues we face wont be solved by the 13 year olds who shout the N word at people or who threaten to kill to people because they're upset. Most of the time, its the collected community who has to backtrack and fix the issues that mainstream society sees are there because a few bad apples represent gaming as a whole.

Not all games are about binding, torturing, and killing people. A collective community tries to make sure that people actually see that games are more than just a 'branch of Hasboro gone horribly wrong', and that they have cultural and societal impacts.
 

MovieBob

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I still can't believe that this kind of crap STILL happens!
The only thing I find even MORE unbelievable is that there are people that actually justify it.

It's total BULLSHIT and doesn't belong anywhere,; Especially in anything community based.
 

Punch You

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wizzy555 said:
Uber Waddles said:
Part of the reason things will never change is because as a community, we are fractured. We all belong to the same community, but a large portion (mostly on the younger side, but there are quite a few naive older people) don't act like they are part of the community. They don't care about the community as a whole, standards we'd like to uphold, or making the medium better. They're just there cause its the cool thing to do, explosions are cool, or for sheer, mind melting entertainment. Thats never going away either.
Why should they? If entry into the gaming community is defined as playing video games why should they care about anything except playing the games they want to play.
Because that's selfish. No matter what group you're apart of, at some level, you are representative of that group. What Bob wants is for gamers to realize that most people hate gamers, and that one rotten apple is all it takes to ruin the patch, because that's all the media will focus on right now. In Bob's example, that guy made all people who play fighting games look like douches. Is that fair to the rest of the fighting game community, most of whom I hope don't feel the same way?

It isn't okay to enjoy your hobby while degrading women and making other members of your hobby look like dicks who you assume share your messed-up view of the world.
 

hermes

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Windu23 said:
Qitz said:
Rea: You know what it is, to be honest with you? We?re getting older. Do you really want to keep hanging around with a bunch of [guys in their] early 20s who don?t know how to treat one another with respect? That?s what it is.

Bakhtanians: Alright, man. The thing is...if you don?t like the scene, how it is right now, it just seems like you?re trying to create...turn it into something that it?s not, and it?s never going to be. You know what I mean?

Rea: That?s really unfortunate [inaudible]...the way it is right now, they want to enjoy fighting games, but they?re so incredibly turned off by [the language].

Bakhtanians: This doesn?t involve me, Jared, I don?t know if you can hear me--this is Aris. This doesn?t really involve me, but if you don?t like onions, you get your sandwich without onions, man. I mean, this is the fighting game community.

Rea: Can I get my Street Fighter without sexual harassment?

Bakhtanians: You can?t. You can?t because they?re one and the same thing. This is a community that?s, you know, 15 or 20 years old, and the sexual harassment is part of a culture, and if you remove that from the fighting game community, it?s not the fighting game community--it?s StarCraft. There?s nothing wrong with StarCraft if you enjoy it, and there?s nothing wrong with anything about eSports, but why would you want just one flavor of ice cream, you know? There?s eSports for people who like eSports, and there?s fighting games for people who like spicy food and like to have fun. There?s no reason to turn them into the same thing, you know?

You can?t go to the NBA and say ?hey, I like basketball, but I don?t want them to play with a basketball, I want them to play with a football.? It just doesn?t...it doesn?t make sense to have that attitude, you know? These things are established for years. That would be like someone from the fighting game community going over to StarCraft and trying to say ?hey, StarCraft, you guys are too soft, let?s start making sexual harassment jokes to each other on StarCraft.? That?s not cool, people wouldn?t like that. StarCraft isn?t like that. People would get defensive, and that?s what you?re trying to do the fighting game community, and it?s not right. It?s ethically wrong.

I know that you?re thinking ?what do you know about ethics? You say racial stuff and sexist stuff.? But those are jokes and if you were really a member of the fighting game community, you would know that. You would know that these are jokes.

Rea: So, ensuring that we alienate any and all female viewers...that?s the ethical thing to do?

Bakhtanians: Well, you know, there are layers here, if you think about this. There are layers of ethics. There are people who are racist and commit hate crimes, right? And then there are people who are racist but they have tons of friends of all colors and they have deep love for those friends. Do you think those people are one and the same? Absolutely not.
I understand that I said some controversial statements on the Cross Assault show, and a lot of people are deeply offended with what was said. When I made these statements, I was very heated as I felt that the culture of a scene I have been a part of for over 15 years was being threatened. I unfortunately used extreme examples in the heat of the moment and feel that my statements don?t actually communicate how I feel. This is similar to what people say when they get into an argument with their girlfriend, and they say things that they deeply regret. I sincerely apologise if I have offended anyone. My statements do not reflect those of Capcom or myself. The last thing I want to do is get them in trouble for giving me and the fighting game community the opportunity to have an amazing show like this.

What I was trying to communicate is that mild hostility has always been a defining characteristic of the fighting game scene. Back when arcades were more prevalent, people didn?t like newcomers, and players needed to fight and pay their dues to get respect. The debate I was in was with a person who supported professional leagues, who have intent to censor the community to make it more accessible. I think the sink or swim mentality is something that defined our culture, and if that succeeds it removes something which has been important to help create some of the best fighting game players of our time. I was unfortunately unable to make this point clearly. Again, I am deeply sorry for offending anyone. This was a combination of the people taking things out of context and my own inability in the heat of the moment to defend myself and the community I have loved for over 15 years.

I find it funny how they used Starcraft as a bad thing. What's bad about it? From most competitions I've seen they tend to get along pretty well, even when they cheese the hell out of each other.

It's a good thing these guys put themselves out though. That way you can smack some of that BS down, which they need to do some more.
It's because the Starcraft community and FGC are diametrically opposed. When people talk about making fighting games into an esport, they always say things like "why can't you be more like those Starcraft guys" and that makes the members of the FGC feel marginalized. They fought (no pun) to get where they are with, really, little to no outside help. The FGC is really homegrown, and when you have that much devoted into something, people coming in to mess with that feels deeply wrong, and they get very territorial.

I feel the need to point to this article [http://shoryuken.com/2011/12/12/guest-editorial-momentum-matters-a-historical-perspective-on-the-fgc-and-esports-communities-2/] again to better illustrate that point, because I'm just not as well versed in the finer details as others.
Its also because there is some history there with the guy that asked him. Jared was part of the Starcraft community management team, he was one of the people that worked there to give that community mass popularity and appeal and at some point he was brought to the SF community by Capcom to do the same thing there. Of course, that was seen as a threat by those that were in the community for a long time since one of the first things to get that was to "sanitize" it...

So, Starcraft was not just used in the response as a particular example of eSport (the same way he could have said Halo or COD), but as a reference to the person that made the question in the first place, most of which is put out of context...
 

LordLundar

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Qitz said:
Rea: You know what it is, to be honest with you? We?re getting older. Do you really want to keep hanging around with a bunch of [guys in their] early 20s who don?t know how to treat one another with respect? That?s what it is.

Bakhtanians: Alright, man. The thing is...if you don?t like the scene, how it is right now, it just seems like you?re trying to create...turn it into something that it?s not, and it?s never going to be. You know what I mean?

Rea: That?s really unfortunate [inaudible]...the way it is right now, they want to enjoy fighting games, but they?re so incredibly turned off by [the language].

Bakhtanians: This doesn?t involve me, Jared, I don?t know if you can hear me--this is Aris. This doesn?t really involve me, but if you don?t like onions, you get your sandwich without onions, man. I mean, this is the fighting game community.

Rea: Can I get my Street Fighter without sexual harassment?

Bakhtanians: You can?t. You can?t because they?re one and the same thing. This is a community that?s, you know, 15 or 20 years old, and the sexual harassment is part of a culture, and if you remove that from the fighting game community, it?s not the fighting game community--it?s StarCraft. There?s nothing wrong with StarCraft if you enjoy it, and there?s nothing wrong with anything about eSports, but why would you want just one flavor of ice cream, you know? There?s eSports for people who like eSports, and there?s fighting games for people who like spicy food and like to have fun. There?s no reason to turn them into the same thing, you know?

You can?t go to the NBA and say ?hey, I like basketball, but I don?t want them to play with a basketball, I want them to play with a football.? It just doesn?t...it doesn?t make sense to have that attitude, you know? These things are established for years. That would be like someone from the fighting game community going over to StarCraft and trying to say ?hey, StarCraft, you guys are too soft, let?s start making sexual harassment jokes to each other on StarCraft.? That?s not cool, people wouldn?t like that. StarCraft isn?t like that. People would get defensive, and that?s what you?re trying to do the fighting game community, and it?s not right. It?s ethically wrong.

I know that you?re thinking ?what do you know about ethics? You say racial stuff and sexist stuff.? But those are jokes and if you were really a member of the fighting game community, you would know that. You would know that these are jokes.

Rea: So, ensuring that we alienate any and all female viewers...that?s the ethical thing to do?

Bakhtanians: Well, you know, there are layers here, if you think about this. There are layers of ethics. There are people who are racist and commit hate crimes, right? And then there are people who are racist but they have tons of friends of all colors and they have deep love for those friends. Do you think those people are one and the same? Absolutely not.
I understand that I said some controversial statements on the Cross Assault show, and a lot of people are deeply offended with what was said. When I made these statements, I was very heated as I felt that the culture of a scene I have been a part of for over 15 years was being threatened. I unfortunately used extreme examples in the heat of the moment and feel that my statements don?t actually communicate how I feel. This is similar to what people say when they get into an argument with their girlfriend, and they say things that they deeply regret. I sincerely apologise if I have offended anyone. My statements do not reflect those of Capcom or myself. The last thing I want to do is get them in trouble for giving me and the fighting game community the opportunity to have an amazing show like this.

What I was trying to communicate is that mild hostility has always been a defining characteristic of the fighting game scene. Back when arcades were more prevalent, people didn?t like newcomers, and players needed to fight and pay their dues to get respect. The debate I was in was with a person who supported professional leagues, who have intent to censor the community to make it more accessible. I think the sink or swim mentality is something that defined our culture, and if that succeeds it removes something which has been important to help create some of the best fighting game players of our time. I was unfortunately unable to make this point clearly. Again, I am deeply sorry for offending anyone. This was a combination of the people taking things out of context and my own inability in the heat of the moment to defend myself and the community I have loved for over 15 years.

I find it funny how they used Starcraft as a bad thing. What's bad about it? From most competitions I've seen they tend to get along pretty well, even when they cheese the hell out of each other.

It's a good thing these guys put themselves out though. That way you can smack some of that BS down, which they need to do some more.
Waitaminute. Let me see if I got this right. The full transcript of the interview is there, showing him that he feels he's justified in being a misogynist asshole (ladies and gentlemen, take a good look. This is what misogyny really looks like.) then when the retaliation gets a fever pitch, he then "apologizes" saying he's sorry that EVERY ONE ELSE misunderstood the subtle nuances of his misogyny.

Have I got that right? I would say it's time that his sponsors and supporters pulled out. Make him realize that there ARE consequences for his actions.
 

fubaring0

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I like the dig on the Starcraft community when they pride themselves being a little more mature than other esports.
 

Thespian

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I'd like to start by saying I think this is one of your best videos, Bob. At least one of the best hosted on the Escapist (as that's all I watch). It was very good viewing too, by the way. I generally tend to prefer the videos spouting obscure facts about obscure series than ones where you argue a point (Maybe because I don't always agree...) but this episode was just very well done.

You made some excellent points, and you made them very well. It was stuff that needed to be said, and needs to be said more than once, and needs to be said very clearly and loudly. Gaming is already at a disadvantage - We can't even afford to be as lax as the more accepted forms of media - We have to strive to be the best, to be unmatched, just so we can be seen as acceptable. And though not everyone is causing the problem, many are pretending there is no problem, and many more just don't care. We all need to work at this.

Bravo.
 

Drtimlittle

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Nov 9, 2011
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It is these kind of videos that need to be shared and understood. This was a superb video with excellent points. We all enjoy the comic book/old weird tv shows/ hollywood history lessons, but every now and then, a bomb needs dropping. Cheers Bob. Don't go changing on us.
 

Slycne

Tank Ninja
Feb 19, 2006
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CronoT said:
I tend to avoid and criticize pro-gaming, and this is one of the major reasons for doing so. With the rare exception, the personality of most "Professional Gamers" can be summed up in the term douchebag.
You know I actually had the same opinion until I got a chance to cover an MLG event awhile back. While there is undoubtedly some (and perhaps some communities are more prone than others). I think it is more a situation of the more vocal minority drowning out the quiet majority. Everyone we talked to or interviewed was super chill and behaved sportsmanlike in their matches.

I might even go a step further to postulate that the actually professionals are ok, but it's the people riding just below that edge that are the real problem.
 

Vortigar

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Great episode Bob.

As a semi-retired-member of the fighting game community I've always been troubled by the stuff you see in some tournament video's. The class acts like James Chen, UltrDavid, Seth Killian and the like getting wedged between groups of loudmouthed swearing types who keep claiming that 'everybody gets it' and that there's no problem.

"You don't lose when you admit that there's a problem, you lose when you fail to address it."
I can't count the number of times I've had to try to pound this into people's heads.

And its extremely sad to see this be a problem in so many places.

To admit you made a mistake during a debate doesn't make you lose the entire debate, its how you recover and pass the point back or move on to the next one. Dropping the ball and letting the opposing team score doesn't mean you should be put on the bench, its how you make sure you don't do it again the next time a similar situation comes up.
 

Qitz

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LordLundar said:
Waitaminute. Let me see if I got this right. The full transcript of the interview is there, showing him that he feels he's justified in being a misogynist asshole (ladies and gentlemen, take a good look. This is what misogyny really looks like.) then when the retaliation gets a fever pitch, he then "apologizes" saying he's sorry that EVERY ONE ELSE misunderstood the subtle nuances of his misogyny.

Have I got that right? I would say it's time that his sponsors and supporters pulled out. Make him realize that there ARE consequences for his actions.
Yup, that's pretty much what he said both times in a nutshell. You forgot the part where he comes off as superior but yeah.
 

RaikuFA

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Slycne said:
CronoT said:
I tend to avoid and criticize pro-gaming, and this is one of the major reasons for doing so. With the rare exception, the personality of most "Professional Gamers" can be summed up in the term douchebag.
You know I actually had the same opinion until I got a chance to cover an MLG event awhile back. While there is undoubtedly some (and perhaps some communities are more prone than others). I think it is more a situation of the more vocal minority drowning out the quiet majority. Everyone we talked to or interviewed was super chill and behaved sportsmanlike in their matches.

I might even go a step further to postulate that the actually professionals are ok, but it's the people riding just below that edge that are the real problem.
Heres an idea on taking care of that. Don't give those guys ANY coverage and when they *****, tell them to act better if they want better coverage.
 

Blueruler182

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Okay, while I agree that this is a problem, I disagree that it's any more of a problem in gaming than in other places. I think sexism in general is a problem, and the reason we notice it in gaming is because we have a tendency to talk to more people while online. Think of a single night of Halo or Call of Duty and the sheer number of people you interact with. Of course a few of them are going to be douchebags.

I agree with everything you said, but I think that gaming does get a bad rap for these sorts of things when it's not solely a gaming problem. Look at the music industry, and look at the sports industry. I've seen my fair share of athletes mistreat women, and the music industry seems to want to objectify them as much as possible.
 

IamLEAM1983

Neloth's got swag.
Aug 22, 2011
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This is proof that the gaming community as a whole needs to mature. Yeah, we get it, we like to have fun in a style and propensity that's not common in individuals who normally have a job, responsibilities, taxes, other personal burdens and what have you, but this is no excuse to behave like a caterwauling man-child.

I absolutely agree with you, Bob. We need to set an example for the rest of us to see, for the non-gamers to acknowledge as a positive display of gaming as a whole. The sooner we manage to turn the idea of a socially responsible and independent mature adult as being the *actual* stereotype all gamers should try to adhere to, the better the community's going to be as a whole.

I don't really appreciate it when a corporation tells me it needs my real name for its own purposes, but the RealID system Blizzard's set in place seems like a tiny step in the right direction. I'd even be in favor of all gamers' complete coordinates being made available if the risk of being trolled to death is what it takes for some of these douchebags to behave. We don't see this type of verbal abuse spread so outwardly outside of online communities precisely because anonymity is what fosters this kind of abuse.

To which you might retort that fighting game communities don't really deal with anonymity. They're the last great bastion for true competitive couch gameplay, right? No online hassles required, right? Well, wrong. The idiots fostering the idea that MLG players are asshats chain opponents together without getting the chance to know them, and consider verbal abuse as being part of some sort of diversionary tactic. This also needs to change.

It should be made clear that it doesn't matter if you're a pro gamer or just a casual fan; demoralizing other players makes you out to be a complete asshat.

Except as far as Zergling rushes are considered. Zergling rushes are a wonderful way to demoralize your opponent. Best of all, they don't require slurs or insults. You can demolish your adversary and still be quite civil about it. :)
 

unacomn

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To be fair, the Starcraft folks can be mean as well, not that mean, but "worth avoiding" mean.
 

vxicepickxv

Slayer of Bothan Spies
Sep 28, 2008
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Dirty Hipsters said:
I disagree with the idea that this coach using sexual harassment as a way of "motivating" his player has to anything to do with the gaming culture. Did this happen at a gaming event? Sure, but it also happens every day in EVERY SPORT.

Back when I did waterpolo in high school I had a coach like this my freshman year whose "motivational" skills went as far as calling everyone on the team "pansy ass faggots" and throwing chairs in the pool from frustration if our team ever got scored on. I've heard similar stories from friends I've had who played other sports, and this was especially prevalent in our wrestling coach.

So yeah, this isn't a problem endemic to gaming or the "fighting game culture" as this asshole claims, it's a part of sports in general and the idea that coaches have put in their heads that they somehow own their players and can treat them like crap.
Well, I think the point Bob was going for here was that it's going to be wrong in more than one community. I'm pretty sure that was the exact point he was going for.
 

Mythrignoc

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Couldn't have said it better myself, and could not agree more with this weeks Big Picture. I'm a transgender and I've literally been told before that the reason I sometimes suck at video games is because "I spend all my time trying to look like a woman and that's just stupid."

That is unfathomably idiotic and insulting, yet it constitutes banter in the gaming world. And that's MILD compared to some of the stuff both men and women face on even just one chatroom of a call of duty game.
 

LordLundar

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Qitz said:
LordLundar said:
Waitaminute. Let me see if I got this right. The full transcript of the interview is there, showing him that he feels he's justified in being a misogynist asshole (ladies and gentlemen, take a good look. This is what misogyny really looks like.) then when the retaliation gets a fever pitch, he then "apologizes" saying he's sorry that EVERY ONE ELSE misunderstood the subtle nuances of his misogyny.

Have I got that right? I would say it's time that his sponsors and supporters pulled out. Make him realize that there ARE consequences for his actions.
Yup, that's pretty much what he said both times in a nutshell. You forgot the part where he comes off as superior but yeah.
Thank you, and yeah I didn't put that in because I don't think there really is any misunderstanding on that concept.

And as for the "purify by sunlight" I prefer nuke from orbit. No not literally (maybe), I mean every time he shows his face at an event to shun and disgrace him and his ilk. Stop endorsing and supporting them. Any time he shows up to play block him out. Make it difficult for him to compete again and realize that no, he doesn't speak for the community and no, the community should not allow this bullshit to continue. Don't hide it away, shove it out in the open and say "this is garbage and we don't want it here".
 

remnant_phoenix

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Zenron said:
I've never understood why people think the right to free speech means they're allowed to be an arsehole to people without consequence.
It's the other way around. They want to be an arsehole first, so they then retroactively use "free speech" as a justification.
 

Sabrestar

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Slycne said:
I might even go a step further to postulate that the actually professionals are ok, but it's the people riding just below that edge that are the real problem.
There's definitely something to this thought, and it's not specific to gaming. There are "bad apples" in every walk of life, even professional pursuits; it's that by their very nature, professionals are more visible than the average person. And whenever a "professional" anything does something bad, there is a legion of apologists saying some variation of "it's just part of the game/business/scene/fnord". And then there's people like me, who respond with some variation of "But it's still wrong."

This was the excuse when Todd Bertuzzi tried to murder Steve Moore in the middle of a hockey game. It's the excuse when John Daly does something criminal, misogynistic, or both, again. It was the excuse when Latrell Sprewell choked his coach, and the NBA forced his team to reinstate him. It's the excuse now, as we discover just how many NFL teams paid bounties to their players for injuring opponents.

Of course you can say what you want, and the Constitution guarantees that it is legal to do so. It also guarantees the right of more open-minded people to criticise you, and ostracise you, and shout you down.

The fact that "it's the way it's always been" means nothing. For thousands of years human sacrifice existed in the Americas. (Yes, I know that it wasn't anywhere near as common or as widespread as was once thought. Just humour me a moment.) Yes, at the time it wasn't considered awful or horrific by the cultures that practiced it. Would we accept it now? Hells NO.

My wife plays more video games and is arguably even more of a "nerd" than I am. How many of this tool's defenders would have the courage to say this to her face? And then stand there and listen to her response? I thought not.

And one final note. This tool did not apologise. "I'm sorry if anyone was offended" is NOT. AN. APOLOGY. If YOU can't accept you did anything wrong, then stand by what you said. If you can't, then back the heck down and think about what you did.
 

Ickabod

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This is how the culture changes.

Surprised there was no picture of Rush after this weeks events.
 

Roganzar

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Jun 13, 2009
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Scarim Coral said:
Ok I must of been under some rock since I never heard of Aris constrosity let alone the whole Cross Assult show.
So against sexism is something you do know or is it next week is suppose to be stuff you are know alot of?
I also was not aware of this going on.
I support Free Speech, I do understand what the amendment entails, and I agree that spouting off ignorant statements has consequences that must and shall be paid.
 

MovieBob

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It really is times like these where I'm most ashamed to be associated with gamer geeks.

I really do think the problem is that this Bakhtanians asshole isn't bright enough to see the problems with what he's said and done. He mentioned in an interview that in the good ol' days of arcades, the regulars were put off by newcomers who hadn't supposedly "earned" their right to be respected as they play. Right off the bat, he can fuck off with his exclusionary nostalgia trip. Because him and his friends were assholes to strangers in the 90s, this somehow gives him license to harass a girl while she attempts to play this game?

I have NOTHING against some casual smack talk. In the context of a game that is designed around competition, that sort of light joking fits in perfectly... But this "Get in the kitchen, you skirt... or else I'll have my way with you because I'm a man!" mentality needs to go. We're not in junior high anymore, you schlub. Girls aren't "icky" because they won't talk to you.

I watched about 13 minutes of the clip in question, where I genuinely had to pause the damned thing so that I could catch my breath... It was so over the top brain-dead and sexist, it felt like he was reading some unused dialog from Biff Tannen.
 

darksakul

Old Man? I am not that old .....
Jun 14, 2008
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As part of the fighting game community I am disgusted and outraged from the incident from Assault Cross. Yes I do admit we have our share of weirdos and pervs, but Aris' actions really cross the lines (and reviles something about the ugly side of nerd sub-culture).

You know what Bob is right, this kind of behavior really need to be stopped.
I ask that people from all over to police their own fandoms and friends, to use positive peer pressure to keep your fellow gamers in line and letting them know this is not acceptable.
 

Aity

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I already have a tremendous amount of respect for you Bob. But now...

+1 respect

has now been added to your running tally. Last count, 1,123 and climbing.
 

kingmob

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I'm sorry Bob, but no, you are wrong. Not about sexism being wrong of course, but that shrugging instances off as this one somehow is "a bad thing". 'Nerd culture' as you perceive it does not exist, gaming, the internet etc. is such a big part of normal life now, that it doesn't need defending from bad apples. At most you give some sort of weird justification for morons such as that guy to think that they are supported in these things.

This just doesn't work, in the same way that it doesn't work for Muslims to have to actively remove themselves from the crimes of other Muslims. It just implicates their religion and never actually solves a problem or hurts the offender.
In the same way a rallying cry to root out sexism in 'nerd culture', simply implies that this is an actual bigger problem of the culture somehow, while it is simply a problem of culture as a whole. Sexism exists everywhere, therefore also in games and gaming communities.

Focus on the offender. Him implicating his fellow gamers doesn't necessitate a response from them, on grounds that he is clearly a moron. A claim never justifies a response, we would be fighting windmills everywhere.

Finally, on the internet, bad behavior is enlarged. An unfortunate, but logical consequence of the anonymity involved. It is a bad place to base any view of a culture on, because the bad apples will be much more visible. Just like the other drivers on the road aren't responsible for drivers acting like an ass since they are in their safe enclosed anonymous environment (called a car :p), other gamers and internetters are not responsible for these freaks. These people are among us, but can not get away with it in real life. They will always be there...
 

Jiefu

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Personally, as a member of the StarCraft community, I was quite happy when that bigoted manchild said that a community with less sexism would be StarCraft. It's always funny when intended insults are actually compliments.
 

Callate

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Errrrr...

I have a feeling I'm on the verge of saying something that may get me slaughtered.

I don't know all the particulars of the Bakhtanians incident. I mean, I've heard the story, but I haven't read the particulars of what the man said. I know it was supposed to be pretty ugly, and I agree that it was wrong. I'm just not sure that I'm in total agreement as to why it was wrong.

My understanding was that this was supposed to be a quasi-public event shown to a public audience. It was implicitly open to female gamers, and no one should have been forced or expected to put up with some kind of demeaning hazing because they were female. Bakhtanians was absolutely in the wrong, and should have been ashamed of himself both for his behavior and for having the nerve to defend it.

But where I get nervous is where Bob seems to be saying that there is no private place for attitudes or ideas that the general public finds offensive, only the public sphere where it comes right out of the gate to get immediately pelted with fruit for its intrinsic wrongness.

That idea disturbs me. I know we're increasingly living in a culture where privacy is a thing of the past. And certainly if you're doing something like a show or a podcast, you take the good of creating something for public consumption with the bad. Likewise, for example, if you're an employer, you better pay attention to laws about discrimination. The availability of fair workplaces where people don't feel threatened or harassed is an issue that effects us all, and I think as a society we're better for strong laws that protect us that way.

But I don't see the harm of Mac users quietly echoing to each other the superiority of users of their chosen platform, or "furries" sharing fantasies with one another, to give two examples (neither of which include me), despite the fact that expression of those ideas in the public sphere might get those who express them treated with derision and disgust.

Shorthand to be later misinterpreted: I see the problem with expressing a bad attitude in public as though the public should accept and mainstream that attitude. I'm concerned with that form of indignation, however righteous, being carried over into areas where people who may recognize their attitudes and ideas are "niche" want to share them with each other.
 

Prof. Monkeypox

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Well Bob, I'd say that this position doesn't even need to be expressed, but it clearly does apparently.

Ugh, I just hope that Captain Neckbeard himself (that Aris guy) gets canned from the show or excluded from fighting tournaments, because he is making both of them look bad. Competitive online multiplayer really is quite awful though, where else can you find a context where being compared to a rapist or serial killer is a compliment?
 

Excludos

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Why are we even talking about this?

haha, sorry.

Altought I somewhat meant it too. There really isn't anything to talk about when it comes to sexual harassment. It shouldn't happen, ever. Anyone who thinks otherwise deserves to step on a lego (and you know how much that hurts).

Also lol at the starcraft jabb, the community known for being the most mature, grown up, friendly and welcoming in esports..especially for its size. I'm perhaps a bit biased there thought, I'm part of it myself after all.

What I really don't agree with thought, is the use of certain words during casting. Now don't get me wrong, I know several people who have actually been raped, and nothing angers me more than when I hear about it. But the word itself doesn't mean anything when put into a completely different context. Of course there are different words casters could use instead of this spesific one. But considering there are about a million words someone somewhere could maybe find offensive..where do we draw the line?
 

moosek

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I'm not a misogynist, racist, homophobe, or any of that crap that get applied to intolerant people. But I'm so apathetic that I often get blamed for being the source of the problem. I have beliefs, but I'm not joining any cause. I'm not fighting anyone else's battles like some kind of mercenary debater of unity and acceptance. I'll leave the uncalled representation of sexual acceptance in nerd culture to Bob Chipman, N'Gai Kroll, and Arthur Gies.
 

Seventh Actuality

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kingmob said:
I'm sorry Bob, but no, you are wrong. Not about sexism being wrong of course, but that shrugging instances off as this one somehow is "a bad thing". 'Nerd culture' as you perceive it does not exist, gaming, the internet etc. is such a big part of normal life now, that it doesn't need defending from bad apples. At most you give some sort of weird justification for morons such as that guy to think that they are supported in these things.

This just doesn't work, in the same way that it doesn't work for Muslims to have to actively remove themselves from the crimes of other Muslims. It just implicates their religion and never actually solves a problem or hurts the offender.
In the same way a rallying cry to root out sexism in 'nerd culture', simply implies that this is an actual bigger problem of the culture somehow, while it is simply a problem of culture as a whole. Sexism exists everywhere, therefore also in games and gaming communities.

Focus on the offender. Him implicating his fellow gamers doesn't necessitate a response from them, on grounds that he is clearly a moron. A claim never justifies a response, we would be fighting windmills everywhere.
No, nerd culture as separate from the mainstream is definitely misogynist as hell and to claim otherwise is just trying to give your pet hobbies protection from the evils of "generalization" that they don't deserve or even need. If this was just one guy being a douchebag, nobody would comment on it. This guy is representative of attitudes that permeate gaming and that aren't going to change unless people who get to shout "tits or GTFO!" into their headsets all day without every being called on it are finally forced to see that their bullshit is not okay. He is representative of and being cheered on by people who are offenders and there are a shitload of them out there.

This is not comparable to Muslims having to apologise for terrorism because Muslims are genuinely a discriminated-against minority. Young male nerds are the majority in gaming, they are not victims and all they have to worry about from "generalizations" is getting their precious feelings hurt because they can't take anything away from a problem except how it affects their exact demographic. If it bothers you, do what I do and mentally exempt yourself - I know I'm not part of the problem, so I don't get defensive.
 

Lieju

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There's also the fact that a lot of people don't really think what they are saying.
I have confronted people about this kind of a thing before, and often people will say 'But I don't really mean that, it's just a way of saying things'.

To which I say, try to make make the language you use reflect your views, then.

Another excuse is that 'they trashtalk to men too', but that trashtalk directed at men is not about them being men. Insulting a woman about something that doesn't directly relate to their sex would not be sexist (it would be rude, though).

If anything, men can be shamed by suggesting they have feminine qualities.

But can you imagine that someone on those shows would use the fact that a person is a heterosexual man to insult them?

moosek said:
I'm not a misogynist, racist, homophobe, or any of that crap that get applied to intolerant people. But I'm so apathetic that I often get blamed for being the source of the problem. I have beliefs, but I'm not joining any cause. I'm not fighting anyone else's battles like some kind of mercenary debater of unity and acceptance. I'll leave the uncalled representation of sexual acceptance in nerd culture to Bob Chipman, N'Gai Kroll, and Arthur Gies.
How is it 'fighting anyone else's battles'? You don't consider yourself to be a part of 'nerd culture'? At the very least, since you're on this site, I'm assuming you play videogames and are a part of that culture.
 

MovieBob

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Callate said:
Shorthand to be later misinterpreted: I see the problem with expressing a bad attitude in public as though the public should accept and mainstream that attitude. I'm concerned with that form of indignation, however righteous, being carried over into areas where people who may recognize their attitudes and ideas are "niche" want to share them with each other.
Well, he clearly stated that free speech allows you to say what you want.
However, you must be ready for the consequences. If you say something overtly racist, you will be called on it. If you say something homophobic (looking at you Santorum) then you'll be challenged. You CAN say what you want but if it is stupid or hurtful, you are going to see a backlash.

Beyond that, I can't think of a single reason to hold onto outdated attitudes that would cause such hateful things to be spewed. I still refer to things as "gay" in a negative sense, but only because it has become the colloquial norm. I would never speak ill of gay people, or try to argue against what is clearly someone's natural, sexual tendencies.

Can anyone give me a good reason why racist, sexist, or homophobic ideas or attitudes should be given a safe haven?

As for your tangent about furries and Mac users, that seems wholly unrelated to the issue at hand.
 

Triaed

Not Gone Gonzo
Jan 16, 2009
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Bravo, Bob!
And thank you for that primer on the First Amendment that so many people hide behind of so self-righteously
 

Vault Citizen

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RoseArch said:
Then why hasn't there been a FemBob yet in your TGO series?
How is that relevant to the argument he is making? He is complaining about sexist language, not making any kind of statement about female representation.
 

John Funk

U.N. Owen Was Him?
Dec 20, 2005
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Uber Waddles said:
Overall, I like your points. There are certainly some points I dont see eye to eye on, mostly because realistically they won't change or aren't something that bad in the first place For example: you will not stop people from saying 'you got raped' in games. It sucks that it wont happen, but its just like people saying 'thats gay' for something stupid. And, for both cases, I dont see it as a swipe against rape victims or homosexuals, its just a word that has a stigma attached to it (which is unfortunate for 'gay', but not everyone is tolerant) thats used in conjunction with something not so pleasant. Is it bad? Yes. Does it tear us down as a culture? Yes. Will it change? Unfortunately, no.
Not with that attitude, it won't. If people accept "Oh, that's just how it is," then... no, it won't.

If you see someone use "OH MAN HE JUST GOT *RAPED*" or "quit being so GAY dude," tell them to stop. Have some courage.
 

BlackFrost

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Hey! Great episode as always, I don't see way people will disagree with you, what you say is true and it needs to be stop.
 

scw55

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Being a dick. Horrible. Unpleasant. Aggressive and insulting is what's core of the HoN/LoL/DotA community, and I fully believe if those aspects were abolished it will be for the best.

I don't think anyone agrees with "fat hairy pig"'s philosophy.

So easy to jump on the hate band wagon. I speak truth however.

(I haven't been exposed to the LoL community as much as DotA/HoN so I may have a biased perspective)
 

lord canti

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When me and my friends get together to hang out together we do say racist and sexist things to each other. However we are all completely comfortable with this because we know what will offend us and what wont.
 

illas

RAWR!!!
Apr 4, 2010
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I agreed with Bob right up to the point of using "rape" as a descriptor.

In the standard gaming scenario, "rape" is not being used to describe what literally happened. Typically, is being used hyperbolically to describe the incident eg: in the case of a vicious, unjustifiable, penetrative assault. Criticising it on this level seems odd, since we don't complain about using "killed", "owned", "butchered" or "destroyed" in such a circumstance (and if one is interpreting it literally, murder is equally - if not more - serious than rape).

Furthermore, rape is not an intrinsically female-victim issue either. I would go as far as to suggest that one guy saying "I raped you" to another guy to be more a homosexual threat characterized by desires of non-gender-specific sexual dominance than a product of male-on-female rape being glamorised.


The point about free speech was brilliant though, most Americans (it seems) would do well to heed that. Most noticeably, the Westboro Baptist Church are allowed to say whatever they want, but that doesn't mean that they aren't responsible for it.
 

Strain42

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lordwindowlicker said:
I still refer to things as "gay" in a negative sense, but only because it has become the colloquial norm. I would never speak ill of gay people, or try to argue against what is clearly someone's natural, sexual tendencies.
There's a line from comedian, Nick Swardson, that I always think about when something like this comes up. (I'm paraphrasing here)

"I don't use it to insult anyone, I don't use it as a negative word but...some stuff is just gay. How else am I supposed to describe a fanny pack?"

I personally don't use gay in my vocabulary, because if I do need to attach an adjective to express negativity, I have a lot of arrows in my quiver I can use, and be more accurate about it as well.
 

Shoggoth2588

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RoseArch said:
Then why hasn't there been a FemBob yet in your TGO series?
Introducing: The Game Estra-Thinker...The Game Lady-Thinker...That's all I've got but it could be coming. Can't wait to see more Necro-Thinker.

---

Great video Bob: Honestly, I've never heard of that show...to promote Street Fighter X Tekken I mean. Hearing about the views expressed by that person whose name I've already forgotten though is enough to make me embarrassed to call myself a Gamer (which I still try not to do, preferring to call myself Game Player). Granted I'm not even a part of the fighting game community but I'd be embarrassed and shamed by what's-his-name's views; apology or not. Also, how is Starcraft or, playing Starcraft an insult?
 

Helmholtz Watson

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flying_whimsy said:
This is probably the most pissed off I've ever heard movie bob sound; I don't blame him, either, as I've said the exact same thing on more than one occasion over the last few years. I remember calling some friends out on throwing the word rape around more casually than I was comfortable with and they looked at me like I grew a second head.

Seriously, nerd culture based sexism is something I would seriously like to see go away. Forever.
using the word rape to mean lose doesn't equate to sexism
 

cahtush

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Im glad the FGC is doing such a fine job of keeping themself seperet from the E-Sports community.
 

darthotaku

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This isn't only a problem with video games, its a problem in real life as well. Just look at that whole "slut" fiasco Rush Limbaugh started. It disgusts me that in this day and age such bigotry is still possible.
What we really need to see is a female game character that is an actually decent role model. we need a character that I would not be terrified if my niece said she wanted to be like.

here's a though for the design and story setting: an average girl in a sweater and loose fitting (but not baggy) jeans that don't show off her underwear. she's in a strange paralelle universe being attacked by wierd monsters and she has to run and gun her way to safety, which eventually ends with her killing the demonic overlord. its RE4 style combat and all of the monsters are hyper sexualized in a gross way, with the males being massive steroid injected freaks and the females running the gambit from massive breasted monstrosities to skeletal freaks in skimpy dresses.
the game serves as a metephor for her overcoming peer pressure and sexualized media images through determination and intelligence, while other named characters around her fall victim to the monsters.
thats the game I want to see, and if done right it could show everyone that a female lead doesn't need to be half naked to be interesting.
 

MovieBob

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Yes.

That's... that's all I got. This is pretty much the same rant I've been posting since the whole thing exploded. If nothing else, I like the episodes that raise these controversial problems because they save me a lot of typing that can instead be easily replaced by a link.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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Callate said:
But where I get nervous is where Bob seems to be saying that there is no private place for attitudes or ideas that the general public finds offensive, only the public sphere where it comes right out of the gate to get immediately pelted with fruit for its intrinsic wrongness.

That idea disturbs me. I know we're increasingly living in a culture where privacy is a thing of the past. And certainly if you're doing something like a show or a podcast, you take the good of creating something for public consumption with the bad. Likewise, for example, if you're an employer, you better pay attention to laws about discrimination. The availability of fair workplaces where people don't feel threatened or harassed is an issue that effects us all, and I think as a society we're better for strong laws that protect us that way.

But I don't see the harm of Mac users quietly echoing to each other the superiority of users of their chosen platform, or "furries" sharing fantasies with one another, to give two examples (neither of which include me), despite the fact that expression of those ideas in the public sphere might get those who express them treated with derision and disgust.

Shorthand to be later misinterpreted: I see the problem with expressing a bad attitude in public as though the public should accept and mainstream that attitude. I'm concerned with that form of indignation, however righteous, being carried over into areas where people who may recognize their attitudes and ideas are "niche" want to share them with each other.
My thoughts exactly, a person should have the right to express unpopular opinions in a private setting.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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Punch You said:
It isn't okay to enjoy your hobby while degrading women and making other members of your hobby look like dicks who you assume share your messed-up view of the world.
Why should people have to censor themselves when their playing things like Xbox live? Last I checked, you can mute people
 

GeorgW

ALL GLORY TO ME!
Aug 27, 2010
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Absolutely brilliant! You make me proud to be a gamer, Bob. Please make more of these not-fun shows, they're always awesome to be able to link to when someone's being an asshole.
 

Callate

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lordwindowlicker said:
Well, he clearly stated that free speech allows you to say what you want. However, you must be ready for the consequences. If you say something overtly racist, you will be called on it. If you say something homophobic (looking at you Santorum) then you'll be challenged. You CAN say what you want but if it is stupid or hurtful, you are going to see a backlash.

Beyond that, I can't think of a single reason to hold onto outdated attitudes that would cause such hateful things to be spewed. I still refer to things as "gay" in a negative sense, but only because it has become the colloquial norm. I would never speak ill of gay people, or try to argue against what is clearly someone's natural, sexual tendencies.

Can anyone give me a good reason why racist, sexist, or homophobic ideas or attitudes should be given a safe haven?

As for your tangent about furries and Mac users, that seems wholly unrelated to the issue at hand.
A lot of the attitudes that we now consider sexist or racist or homophobic were pretty close to the mainstream not all that long ago. To be clear, I'm not sorry to see those attitudes go. But I'm less than confident that "Thinking this makes you a terrible person, get back in the closet", so to speak, is an attitude that is effective in producing change. It may eventually. But in the meantime, it seems as likely to create a chain reaction of backlash after backlash between two groups who think differently, giving each plenty of opportunity to beat their chests and describe themselves as oppressed martyrs or rebels against tyranny. Nor am I entirely confident that the majority always refines emotionally charged ideas into moral gold.

There may come a time when an idea simply has to be destroyed. When we recognize it has no place in the society we visualize, it's too dangerous, too poisonous. But I cannot stress enough that I don't think that should ever be our first option.

I believe in many cases we're more likely to make those we oppose recognize our underlying humanity and desire to change themselves by explaining how what they believe touches upon where we come from. We lose so much when we give up both the attempt to understand someone else's perspective and trying to make them understand our own. That cannot begin with "Your ideas are repellent and morally hideous, go on, I'm listening."

I suspect almost everyone who writes in these forums is part of at least one group whose point of view someone loud at some point passionately wished would just go away because they're so icky, even if that group was only gamers themselves. How badly do we want to build a weapon that's entirely likely to come back and hit us in the face sooner or later? Just because we're on one side of the weapon now?
 

MovieBob

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Callate said:
A lot of the attitudes that we now consider sexist or racist or homophobic were pretty close to the mainstream not all that long ago. To be clear, I'm not sorry to see those attitudes go. But I'm less than confident that "Thinking this makes you a terrible person, get back in the closet", so to speak, is an attitude that is effective in producing change. It may eventually. But in the meantime, it seems as likely to create a chain reaction of backlash after backlash between two groups who think differently, giving each plenty of opportunity to beat their chests and describe themselves as oppressed martyrs or rebels against tyranny. Nor am I entirely confident that the majority always refines emotionally charged ideas into moral gold.

There may come a time when an idea simply has to be destroyed. When we recognize it has no place in the society we visualize, it's too dangerous, too poisonous. But I cannot stress enough that I don't think that should ever be our first option.

I believe in many cases we're more likely to make those we oppose recognize our underlying humanity and desire to change themselves by explaining how what they believe touches upon where we come from. We lose so much when we give up both the attempt to understand someone else's perspective and trying to make them understand our own. That cannot begin with "Your ideas are repellent and morally hideous, go on, I'm listening."

I suspect almost everyone who writes in these forums is part of at least one group whose point of view someone loud at some point passionately wished would just go away because they're so icky, even if that group was only gamers themselves. How badly do we want to build a weapon that's entirely likely to come back and hit us in the face sooner or later? Just because we're on one side of the weapon now?
I really don't think that's what bob was saying, though. Like he stated, you have the right to say what you want. You also have to be aware of what comes next.

If I say that all gays should be killed, then people are going to take issue with that statement.. and rightfully so. He's not saying you can't make insensitive comments to your buddies in your basement, but if one of them doesn't share your views.. then once again, you run the risk of getting called on it. I think you took him a bit too literally in that sense. "That's just how the fighting game community is.." is not an excuse for saying something hateful and stupid.
 

portal_cat

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Thanks for bringing this topic up bob. I'm just glad I haven't met anyone like that while I've been playing video games.
 

Bloodtrozorx

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First: Bob if you could hear this I'm doing a slow clap. Thank you for that.
Second: Aris Bakhtanians is a waste of space and deserves all of this. Its a shame that he is now a very public face of gaming and we'll all suffer for this.
 

Unfire

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I have a serious question, because when I was growing up in the same state as Bob, "fag" was the most common non-seven-list-of-dirty-words insult there was. I've stopped using it of course, for almost 20 years, but in my cathartic moments of video game violence, I don't keep track of the swears that I say with anger (why I don't use a mic in any kind of console game, except with friends). I'm not trying to play devil's advocate, but I know I myself use video games to vent my anger as a release after sitting in a cube for 8 hours. Basically I'm asking if my verbal diarrhea, none of which is nice, these "ism" words come out, does that count as these "isms"?
 

PingoBlack

Searching for common sense ...
Aug 6, 2011
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I only find one thing today really poor ...

Big Picture gets a small banner and a mention for such a worthwhile topic, while the review of latest EA thing gets front and center.
 

John Funk

U.N. Owen Was Him?
Dec 20, 2005
20,364
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illas said:
I agreed with Bob right up to the point of using "rape" as a descriptor.

In the standard gaming scenario, "rape" is not being used to describe what literally happened. Typically, is being used hyperbolically to describe the incident eg: in the case of a vicious, unjustifiable, penetrative assault. Criticising it on this level seems odd, since we don't complain about using "killed", "owned", "butchered" or "destroyed" in such a circumstance (and if one is interpreting it literally, murder is equally - if not more - serious than rape).

Furthermore, rape is not an intrinsically female-victim issue either. I would go as far as to suggest that one guy saying "I raped you" to another guy to be more a homosexual threat characterized by desires of non-gender-specific sexual dominance than a product of male-on-female rape being glamorised.


The point about free speech was brilliant though, most Americans (it seems) would do well to heed that. Most noticeably, the Westboro Baptist Church are allowed to say whatever they want, but that doesn't mean that they aren't responsible for it.
Doesn't matter. It should stop.
 

MovieBob

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I'm not going to contribute any comment of great worth to the video, but I will say that Moviebob singlehandedly changed my opinion on internet commentators.

I remember watching his early videos and despising them because they were frought with fanboy geek-outs, contrasted by furious nerd-rage. If a time traveller had shown me one of his more recent videos back in those days, I would have refused to believe it was really him.

Watching Bob steadily temper his voice as time goes by has been a genuine joy for me. Not because I hink his manner of speaking is incredibly sexy, but because when he takes the time to be calm, articulate and optomistic he can end up providing some of the most enjoyable commentary on "geek culture" I've ever had the pleasure of listening to.

I suppose the clincher for me has been episodes like this. Seeing Moviebob dig up the uglier parts of our insular little community in order to smack them about for a bit is a joy to behold, and not just because it gives me a little cathartic release to see someone in a position of some authority and status on such matters vent an opinion that coincides with mine.

Moviebob, you are a good thing. You're a dumbass sometimes[footnote]The Expendables is shit because it's just mindless indulgence in something that doesn't appeal to you, but Pihrana 3D is OK because it's mindless indulgence in something you're not personally averse to?[/footnote], but know what geek culture needs and you have the intelligence to articulate it in a way we can all enjoy.

Every time you do a "serious" episode I like you more and more, and that's actually slightly worrying. Right now it's edging its way up past "respect" and into the regions of "coy attraction". Keep on like this, and it'll turn into full-on animalistic lust.

castlewise said:
I agree. Sexism or racism isn't defined by how you think so much as by your actions. I think if you make sexist jokes which cause women discomfort and grief then you are, by definition, sexist. Whether you think of yourself as sexist or not is a different story. Mediocre bad guys almost never think of themselves as bad guys.
While I disagree with your claim about what defines a "sexist", I do like that someone voiced this opinion because what people say they are is not enough to alleviate any concerns other people may have about their attitude.

For example, if a man makes a string of sexist jokes and then claims it's totally cool because he isn't really sexist, and then tries to use that little fact to invalidate the arguments of anyone who gets offended at what he says... well, that's just dickery, isn't it?

People will often respond to the offence of others by either stating how they genuinely feel ("I'm not racist, I was just joking around with my mate!") or by going so far as to accuse the person who raised the concern of having some kind of personal defect The only reason this bothers you is because you're too easily offended by stuff").

And yeah, that particular attitude can fuck right off. I'm not bout to declare what societal standards one should follow when it comes to joking around in public, but I hate to see people simply ignoring the offence of others.

Society as a whole (not just gaming culture) isn't going to progress unless we seriously consider these issues, no matter how petty they may seem. That doesn't mean we all jave to cave to the views of the offended parties, but it does mean we have to take the time to ask ourselves "Are we wrong? Are they right?".

In other words, we can't get anywhere unless we provide every available opinion with some serious consideration, and disregarding someone's complaint with a ridiculous defensive like "I'm not racist, I'm just making racist jokes, therefore stop being offended at them!" is conterproductive. next time, either apologise for causing someone discomfort or, if you genuinely believe what you're doing is OK, try to present them with an objective argument that matches up to theirs.

Some people might balk at this prospect, citing the viewpoints and arguments of bigots as the kind of thing that shouldn't be seriously considered for a single moment. One such example would be the recent controversy over an Archie comic which contains a positive portrayal of same-sex marriage, whch the organisation One Million Moms claims shouldn't be put on display in front of children.

My response to that would be this: If we are so sure of our opinions and beliefs, and so sure that they are in the wrong, then why should we worry about subjecting both sides to critical analysis? it is my sincere belief that we have nothing to loose by opening up a dialogue with these groups, and a lot to gain by doing so. Because I know for a fact that what their claims are unreasonable, that they just don't hold up, and if any of them wants to challenge this belief then we should let them. After all, you can never convince an opponent that they are stupid or amoral, but you can sure as hell demonstrate the problems with their arguments.

Which is more likely to win people over?



Uber Waddles said:
wizzy555 said:
Uber Waddles said:
Part of the reason things will never change is because as a community, we are fractured. We all belong to the same community, but a large portion (mostly on the younger side, but there are quite a few naive older people) don't act like they are part of the community. They don't care about the community as a whole, standards we'd like to uphold, or making the medium better. They're just there cause its the cool thing to do, explosions are cool, or for sheer, mind melting entertainment. Thats never going away either.
Why should they? If entry into the gaming community is defined as playing video games why should they care about anything except playing the games they want to play.
Well, for one, I never said they should. But if you want an honest answer, I'll give you one.

We should care because it matters. In every sense you can think of. You like playing videogames? Without a strong community, you get game developers who walk all over their client base. They can do various things, restricting DRM seems to be the top gunner right now. A more recent example is the scrutiny that BioWare is under for the "From Ashes" DLC, which was finished pre-production, and is being sold for $10 instead of included with new copies of the game (like previous DLC's). This DLC pack includes plot points, so if you didnt get the Collectors edition, and you want to get the most out of the game, you're gonna sink an extra $10.

And who do you think fights against those practices? Not all of the boycotts are successful, mostly because of the mentioned fracturing, but a lot of companies will reconsider consumer-unfriendly concepts due to massive backlash. A strong community stops ALL of us from getting trampled on with.

Also, I'm pretty sure that since you like playing Videogames, you probably don't want to see them taxed for being violent? How about censored based on content? Or making M rated videogames banned from commercial store shelves? All legislation that has fallen over the last two years because people decided to get vocal. Even if you just like playing the mindless rot that most of the collected community hates, its the community that stands up for your right to play it, the way the developer wanted you to play it, without anyone saying "thats not fit, get rid of it".

And it kinda really hurts the community that the loud minority are the people that don't really care for gaming as a whole. You won't see the Frat Bro's who play CoD get up in arms over a tax on violent videogames, or unfriendly consumer practices. The issues we face wont be solved by the 13 year olds who shout the N word at people or who threaten to kill to people because they're upset. Most of the time, its the collected community who has to backtrack and fix the issues that mainstream society sees are there because a few bad apples represent gaming as a whole.

Not all games are about binding, torturing, and killing people. A collective community tries to make sure that people actually see that games are more than just a 'branch of Hasboro gone horribly wrong', and that they have cultural and societal impacts.
I thought I had something worth adding to your post other than simple, dumb agreement, but I guess this is all I have to say: I liked your post. It needs to be seen. In fact - Moviebob, are you reading these? see that ^ up there? make an episode out of that, please.

IamLEAM1983 said:
This is proof that the gaming community as a whole needs to mature. Yeah, we get it, we like to have fun in a style and propensity that's not common in individuals who normally have a job, responsibilities, taxes, other personal burdens and what have you, but this is no excuse to behave like a caterwauling man-child.

I absolutely agree with you, Bob. We need to set an example for the rest of us to see, for the non-gamers to acknowledge as a positive display of gaming as a whole. The sooner we manage to turn the idea of a socially responsible and independent mature adult as being the *actual* stereotype all gamers should try to adhere to, the better the community's going to be as a whole.

I don't really appreciate it when a corporation tells me it needs my real name for its own purposes, but the RealID system Blizzard's set in place seems like a tiny step in the right direction. I'd even be in favor of all gamers' complete coordinates being made available if the risk of being trolled to death is what it takes for some of these douchebags to behave. We don't see this type of verbal abuse spread so outwardly outside of online communities precisely because anonymity is what fosters this kind of abuse.
While I would usually oppose this kind of thinking, I am inclined to agree with your statement - maybe it's just the way you put it.

I for one believe in total fucking anonymity wherever people can get it, and maintaining it on the internet - where any individual can express him/herself without fear of regulation, reprisal or judgement - is []really[/i] important.

On the other hand, being a member of society is all about co-operation and mutual civility. So I do agree with the general sentiment of what you said. Watching people's civility levels skyrocket because they're being held accountable for their statements would be a laugh riot. However, I would rather not have to resort to something like RealID. What about the people who want to be able to just act out their own little private fantasy within an online game? What about people who want to express or discuss things they're ashamed with without others who know them finding out about it? those people need to be protected.

It's a right we should all have, and I worry that something like RealID could set a dangerous precedent. It doesn't sound too bad coming from a game development company, but companies are already fairly intrusive and controlling as it is! What if, over time, every company starts to implement something like this very slowly? what if governments or ISP's begin introducing it, avoiding the once-inevitable backlash because the populace has become used to it?

Protecting anonymity on the internet is important because free-flowing information makes it impossible for any one body to exercise an undue amount of control without some level of resistance.

Using it as a method of preventing online tomshittery might initially sound appealing, but there are undesirable side-effects.

As a side-note, it's funny how this issue shows how uncivilised we can be. Every comfortable citizen in the first world would probably claim that everything is fine and dandy - but just look how people will act when they think no-one can really hold them to their words!

Personally - and when I say personally, I mean "here are the fever-dreams brought forth by the madness the plagues me with every waking thought" - I'd rather we created a society in which everyone has a deep sense of personal responsibility hammered into them. They'd have phrases like "JUST BECAUSE NO-ONE SAY YOU DO IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE NOT A TOTAL SHITHEAD" screamed at them by a psychotic drill sergeant all throughout infancy so that they realise that, hey, maybe we should be polite and kind because it refelcts well on us, instead of doing oit out of fear of reprisals!

Alternatively, we make everyone believe that they're being monitored by an omnipotent, draconian Orwellian institution that punishes minor cases of incivility via firing squad.

Of course, this will raise the issue of what we do when people cross the line we've invented and realise that "hey, there IS no firing squad!". For the sake of keeping our scheme airtight, we actually do punish them via firing squad. And in order to make sure it remains consistent, we'd have to actually just go ahead and implement some kind of omnipotent, draconian Orwellian institution. y'know, just to be absolutely sure.

It's not a perfect plan, but it's a start. I think.

Blueruler182 said:
Okay, while I agree that this is a problem, I disagree that it's any more of a problem in gaming than in other places. I think sexism in general is a problem, and the reason we notice it in gaming is because we have a tendency to talk to more people while online. Think of a single night of Halo or Call of Duty and the sheer number of people you interact with. Of course a few of them are going to be douchebags.

I agree with everything you said, but I think that gaming does get a bad rap for these sorts of things when it's not solely a gaming problem. Look at the music industry, and look at the sports industry. I've seen my fair share of athletes mistreat women, and the music industry seems to want to objectify them as much as possible.
Good point. I think that we need to stop regarding ourselves as an insular group and begin exposing the whole geek community thing to the wider world of popular culture. We tear down the divisions which will eventually dwindle away to nothing anyway for the sake of ensuring that we don't end up becoming an enclave for pig-headed shits, and in the process "cultural commentators" (I assume that's what MovieBob calls himself when he's attending upmarket dinner parties) would no longer have to address specific demographics or problems as they apply solely within the sub-culture in whcih they've found themselves. We could do with people like MovieBob addressing these issues as they appear in the wider world, not just within a sub-culture.

After all, what is geekdom if not a simple set of entertainment preferences? regarding it as a subculture is, if you'll pardon my expression, fucking ludicrous. It's about time we tore down some walls.

or, to put my entire lengthy post into one infuriatingly concise comment that makes me look like a self-indulgent ass....

Vortigar said:
Great episode Bob.

As a semi-retired-member of the fighting game community I've always been troubled by the stuff you see in some tournament video's. The class acts like James Chen, UltrDavid, Seth Killian and the like getting wedged between groups of loudmouthed swearing types who keep claiming that 'everybody gets it' and that there's no problem.

"You don't lose when you admit that there's a problem, you lose when you fail to address it."
I can't count the number of times I've had to try to pound this into people's heads.

And its extremely sad to see this be a problem in so many places.

To admit you made a mistake during a debate doesn't make you lose the entire debate, its how you recover and pass the point back or move on to the next one. Dropping the ball and letting the opposing team score doesn't mean you should be put on the bench, its how you make sure you don't do it again the next time a similar situation comes up.
This. A thousand fucking times, this. The last part right here.

As I said, we loose nothing when we turn a critical eye on ourselves, and gain a lot in the process. It's maddening, seeing so many point-blank refuse to acknowledge the particular problems within their own arguments or past statements, and it's a peculiar brand of anti-logic that even supposedly qualified and level-headed politicians are infuriatingly prone to doing.

John Funk said:
illas said:
I agreed with Bob right up to the point of using "rape" as a descriptor.

In the standard gaming scenario, "rape" is not being used to describe what literally happened. Typically, is being used hyperbolically to describe the incident eg: in the case of a vicious, unjustifiable, penetrative assault. Criticising it on this level seems odd, since we don't complain about using "killed", "owned", "butchered" or "destroyed" in such a circumstance (and if one is interpreting it literally, murder is equally - if not more - serious than rape).

Furthermore, rape is not an intrinsically female-victim issue either. I would go as far as to suggest that one guy saying "I raped you" to another guy to be more a homosexual threat characterized by desires of non-gender-specific sexual dominance than a product of male-on-female rape being glamorised.


The point about free speech was brilliant though, most Americans (it seems) would do well to heed that. Most noticeably, the Westboro Baptist Church are allowed to say whatever they want, but that doesn't mean that they aren't responsible for it.
Doesn't matter. It should stop.
See, that's completely counter-productive! I started by trying to figure out whether you were addressing the continued mouthiness of the Westboro Baptitst church or the supposed misuse of the term "rape" but then I realised: It doesn't matter. Because there's no argument or objection there, just an obtuse declaration of fact that runs contrary to any kind of significant discussion or any kind of mutual enightenment regarding the issue at hand.
 

Terminal Blue

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illas said:
Rape is not intrinsically female victim issue, but it is (quite justifiably) a far more emotive issue for women. Because, to put it bluntly, women suffer it hugely more. Couple this with the fact that men generally display significantly lower fear of violence or physical attack (despite being overwhelmingly more likely to suffer it) and you are left with a predictable outcome. Although rape happens to men, men simply do not fear it. Men have no reason to believe it will happen to them, and normally they're right.

Put yourself in the shoes of a woman for a moment, someone who genuinely does fear rape. If you walk into an environment where guys casually use the word, are you going to spend your time trying to work out what they mean by that. No, you will get the fuck out. Why would you hang around people who treat your worst fear as a trivial thing?

We all say we want more women to play games, but I don't think we really want "women" to play games, we want gamer girls who will fit inoffensively into the preexisting culture and adopt our attitudes and who will never demand that we grow up or behave differently. That probably isn't going to happen. Women won't look at guys using the word "rape" and dismiss it as harmless fun, just like many gay people can't hear the word "fag" without feeling an emotional reaction. It's not about "manning up" or "getting offended over nothing", because this stuff isn't "nothing" to those people.

It will push them away, and it will ultimately lead to the gaming community continuing to be regarded as nothing more than a dumping ground for poorly socialized manchildren. That alone, I think, is reason to stop it.
 

MovieBob

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Main thing I disagree with is the implication that racial slurs and bigoted speech necessarily cause harm and thus should be immune to 1st amendment protections (if that's not what you were getting at, I apologize).
 

C.S.Strowbridge

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One of the reasons I don't like online multiplayer games is the causal bigotry. It happens to often that a lot of people don't even react to it anymore.
 

Gearhead mk2

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While it deos feel so good to here someone FINALLY call those guys out on the casual mysognoy, homphobia, racism etc., I do think he is being just a little sensitive. These things do need to be phased out, but the majority of it isnt hateful, just tastless. Im not saying no harm done because that does act as a gateway to deliberate and intentional discrimination, but if I flagged every person that used a homophobic slur, thats about a third of the worldwide gamer population.

Two example from personal experience:
Getting called a fag as a general insult by a 7-year-old: Bad but harmless
One guy calling me a muslim because I blew myself up: That deserves punishment
 

Ashoten

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Thanks for going beyond just the sexism issue and addressing the general dushbaggery that happens in online gaming. The worst thing about any multiplayer game right now is the players. Why should I have to be subjected to angry teenagers moaning and pissing? I hope game developers take notice of this and start to crack down on abusive players. Whats that you say? Just don't play multiplayer games then noob? Well if the market wasn't saturated with a ton a multiplayer games maybe I could. Big Multiplayer games are the way of the future as long as the internet is here. So guess I gotta hope for more Skyrims and Final Fantasy games that don't suck.

But you know I have as much right as the next person to jump into a big multiplayer match with my friends without being screamed at to uninstall my game(In a match of W.O.T. where I tracked and wrecked the other team with every artillery shot, but I didn't get any kills).

Yes using rape as a simile for beating another player is vulgar and only feeds the stereotype that all gamers are insecure jerks trying to draw attention away from the size of their own "Member".

Yeah I do get angry over stuff like this.
 

Mullahgrrl

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Why is hatespeach an important part of the fighting game culture?

Because they they don't like PC Games!
 

BrownGaijin

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So does this mean I can't laugh at <a href=http://www.hulu.com/watch/2306/saturday-night-live-point-counterpoint-lee-marvin-and-michelle-triola>this anymore? Or does it pass under the "Politically incorrect but not being mean" clause?
 

yunabomb

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Volf said:
Punch You said:
It isn't okay to enjoy your hobby while degrading women and making other members of your hobby look like dicks who you assume share your messed-up view of the world.
Why should people have to censor themselves when their playing things like Xbox live? Last I checked, you can mute people
The burden to change behavior should not fall on the innocents.

Plus, this isn't specific to online play. In tournaments and other gaming events people experience racism, sexism and harassment.
 

Realitycrash

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Very well, Bob. Let's talk about it. So, what exactly are we to talk about except "Sexism is bad, and the fact that some gamers feel entitled to being sexist as 'part of their identity' is ludicrous"? Seriously, what do you purpose we DO other than all nod and say "Yes, yes this is bad".
For if it is so, then I will reply "Why are we even talking about this?".
 

Satosuke

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Yes, apologies and social ostracism were in order here, but it seems Bob is suggesting there should be legal ramifications for what he said. I'm not saying Bob openly said Bakhtanians should face government penalization for what he said, but suggesting it goes into dicey legal territory. I honestly don't want to see something like the UK's libel laws come here to the USA, where you can face fines and punishment from the state for what you say, because yeah, THAT'S CENSORSHIP.

He should be shunned by his peers and kicked off the show, but he shouldn't be fined or jailed. I know that's not what was said, but I find it important to make that distinction. But yeah, I agree with the fact that the gaming community's doing a shitty job of separating itself from idiots like this.
 

ED-Tw0 ZeRo N9nE

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Sigh, Bob trumpeting the Political Correctness horn AGAIN, how predictable.

By this point we should all pretty much already know what he's going to say before he even says it. It would appear that he really does like to imagine himself as the Champion of Equality, no matter how hollow it truely is.
 

MovieBob

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Volf said:
Callate said:
But where I get nervous is where Bob seems to be saying that there is no private place for attitudes or ideas that the general public finds offensive, only the public sphere where it comes right out of the gate to get immediately pelted with fruit for its intrinsic wrongness.

That idea disturbs me. I know we're increasingly living in a culture where privacy is a thing of the past. And certainly if you're doing something like a show or a podcast, you take the good of creating something for public consumption with the bad. Likewise, for example, if you're an employer, you better pay attention to laws about discrimination. The availability of fair workplaces where people don't feel threatened or harassed is an issue that effects us all, and I think as a society we're better for strong laws that protect us that way.

But I don't see the harm of Mac users quietly echoing to each other the superiority of users of their chosen platform, or "furries" sharing fantasies with one another, to give two examples (neither of which include me), despite the fact that expression of those ideas in the public sphere might get those who express them treated with derision and disgust.

Shorthand to be later misinterpreted: I see the problem with expressing a bad attitude in public as though the public should accept and mainstream that attitude. I'm concerned with that form of indignation, however righteous, being carried over into areas where people who may recognize their attitudes and ideas are "niche" want to share them with each other.
My thoughts exactly, a person should have the right to express unpopular opinions in a private setting.
True, and sponsors should have the right to tell them to go blow themselves when they broadcast that unpopular opinion on a national promotional stream.
 

MovieBob

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Satosuke said:
Yes, apologies and social ostracism were in order here, but it seems Bob is suggesting there should be legal ramifications for what he said. I'm not saying Bob openly said Bakhtanians should face government penalization for what he said, but suggesting it goes into dicey legal territory. I honestly don't want to see something like the UK's libel laws come here to the USA, where you can face fines and punishment from the state for what you say, because yeah, THAT'S CENSORSHIP.

He should be shunned by his peers and kicked off the show, but he shouldn't be fined or jailed. I know that's not what was said, but I find it important to make that distinction. But yeah, I agree with the fact that the gaming community's doing a shitty job of separating itself from idiots like this.
Government intervention? No.

Loss of sponsors? Yes.
 

Alphamarigi

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The only sentence I didn't respond "DUH" to is the rape as synonym for defeat thing I don't use it but I had no problem with it until this wake up call, thank you. Also the nerd who gets bullied thing is old hat Bob seriously it is the only people who bullied me were obnoxious thirteen year old, obnoxious kids at my afterschool care who also played videogames and other nerds. Seriously that's it. In high school I had a lot of jock friends including chicks and they weren't bad to look at either. Maybe it's cause I live in SF but I don't these stereotypes about the midwest are true RIGHT? I never heard anything about nerds getting bullied besides the media, my dad who is over fifty, memesites and you. So it gets tiresome hearing you talk about it.
 

Realitycrash

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Father Time said:
Main thing I disagree with is the implication that racial slurs and bigoted speech necessarily cause harm and thus should be immune to 1st amendment protections (if that's not what you were getting at, I apologize).
Nothing (and I repeat; NOTHING) cause harm "by necessity", even a gunshot-wound to the head can miraculously do more good than harm (in some convoluted way), but it is, as it is with everything else, the likelihood of something causing harm that we debate. And since racial slurs and bigoted speech are more likely than not in most occasions to cause harm, it is to be frowned (i.e faced with legal action) upon.
 

MovieBob

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The guy has also never taken part in a Starcraft Game because maaaaan you will get the most interesting combination of gender-race-ethnic-religious slurs and insults used there. And that's from tyour own team and don't get me started on Dota aiyaa.

The truth is this sort of thing stems not just from gaming but from competition. Competition is a physical and a psychological warzone. The best way to hurt someones performance is to hurt them emotionally and sometimes that can be the best way to motivate someone as well. It tends to happen with gamers more because you're either anonymous over the 'net and thus safe from repercussion or... you're with close friends who know you and are likely to be cool with that (see like minded people). These two factors lead to the intensity being ramped up.

That said, guys like him are a comfort since I'm pretty certain his chances of getting intimate and thereby passing on those genes of his just took a serious nose dive. The gene pool as they say is self cleaning. Good show as always Bob. Seriously ladies, it's in your court.
 

XDravond

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I.. Well... I just..

THANK YOU!
(Goes down on knees and thanks all Gods/saints/religions for MovieBob, deep insight into a subject which is so important for my favorite medium is so often needed. If only more people could hear this and understand that most people is not like the vocal ones.)
I agree with this wholeheartedly. Sexism, homophobia, racial slurs etc is wrong, does not matter who utters them it's wrong. It's just one of the things that just shouldn't be accepted.
Now how do I shove this down into the morons throats...

Oh and Bob you know that you need thorns to see the beauty of the roses, although I still call this a "fun" episode anyhow.
 

C.S.Strowbridge

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Father Time said:
Main thing I disagree with is the implication that racial slurs and bigoted speech necessarily cause harm and thus should be immune to 1st amendment protections (if that's not what you were getting at, I apologize).
You do realize the first amendment only applies to the government. If someone is fired for saying something racist, that has exactly zero to do with the first amendment.
 

yunabomb

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Realitycrash said:
Very well, Bob. Let's talk about it. So, what exactly are we to talk about except "Sexism is bad, and the fact that some gamers feel entitled to being sexist as 'part of their identity' is ludicrous"? Seriously, what do you purpose we DO other than all nod and say "Yes, yes this is bad".
For if it is so, then I will reply "Why are we even talking about this?".
I have an answer to this: since you agree with the points of the video, make sure you fight against slurs, harassment etc in the gaming community. Making sure to call out bad behavior and make it unacceptable in the community will bring positive changes.
 

Realitycrash

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yunabomb said:
Realitycrash said:
Very well, Bob. Let's talk about it. So, what exactly are we to talk about except "Sexism is bad, and the fact that some gamers feel entitled to being sexist as 'part of their identity' is ludicrous"? Seriously, what do you purpose we DO other than all nod and say "Yes, yes this is bad".
For if it is so, then I will reply "Why are we even talking about this?".
I have an answer to this: since you agree with the points of the video, make sure you fight against slurs, harassment etc in the gaming community. Making sure to call out bad behavior and make it unacceptable in the community will bring positive changes.
I'm sorry, but I thought everyone already did this? Kinda why I am always surprised when these topics come up.
Then again, I hardly play online anymore, mostly because I can't handle the slurs, etc. So I just don't interact with them.
 
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*claps slowly and ethusiastically*

Well said bob. My friends and I discussed this just this Saturday.

I cannot believe that asshole said "Sexual harassment is part of the fighting game community". No. No it's not. Two of my best friends are fighting game NUTS, and they were disgusted that anyone could consider harassment a part of the community. Harassment has NOTHING to do with fighting games. They're about mastery, practice, showmanship and sportmanship (winning and losing gracefully, etc).

I'm glad Capcom themselves apologized for the incident, but they really should have gone farther, and BOOTED that guy out. I don't care how far into the tournament you are, find someone who isn't a total douche who pretty much destroyed any positive press that this show was getting you. Because of what that coach stirred up, when people think of cross assault, they won't think of that cool tournament used to advertise that fun looking game, they will think of "oh yeah, wasn't that the show with the sexist coach?".
 

TheSchaef

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All these years, I thought I liked Starcraft because it was the best RTS video game ever conceived. Turns out it was just because I was socially responsible, or something.

So Bob, you know that part in The Shawshank Redemption where Andy Dufresne writes letters to the state legislature every week requesting new books for the prison library, and they give him a few to shut him up, and he just starts writing two letters a week?

You may think you've assuaged the constant cry for a Samurai Pizza Cats episode, but in fact you've only emboldened us. We WILL have satisfaction. :)
 

Zaverexus

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Thanks a lot, great video. I saw a similar article just yesterday so I'll link it here for people who are interested in more strong views on the subject
http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2012/03/let-us-discuss-bigot-joesky-tax.html
 

Helmholtz Watson

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yunabomb said:
Volf said:
Punch You said:
It isn't okay to enjoy your hobby while degrading women and making other members of your hobby look like dicks who you assume share your messed-up view of the world.
Why should people have to censor themselves when their playing things like Xbox live? Last I checked, you can mute people
The burden to change behavior should not fall on the innocents.

Plus, this isn't specific to online play. In tournaments and other gaming events people experience racism, sexism and harassment.
well if your play Call of Duty Multiplayer and my saying something offensive gets you thinking about what is being said and not on the game, which in turn gives me a window of time to catch you off guard, why shouldn't I use that technique?
 

xPixelatedx

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From the way you are all acting I expected the video to be of a girl crying in a corner while this creepy old man rubbed her thigh, instead I see her laughing like a school girl through most of it. She should have really been a bit more forward with her discomfort, because laughter is just encouragement for socially awkward guys who don't realize they've overstepped the line. You'd think people would learn this in high school. But I don't dismiss what the guy did either, obviously. Everything everyone said about him is justified.

I also disagree with bob about the fact that some things are never ok to say. When friend's are BSing with one another they can say whatever they damn well please, as long as they are both ok with it.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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NameIsRobertPaulson said:
Volf said:
Callate said:
But where I get nervous is where Bob seems to be saying that there is no private place for attitudes or ideas that the general public finds offensive, only the public sphere where it comes right out of the gate to get immediately pelted with fruit for its intrinsic wrongness.

That idea disturbs me. I know we're increasingly living in a culture where privacy is a thing of the past. And certainly if you're doing something like a show or a podcast, you take the good of creating something for public consumption with the bad. Likewise, for example, if you're an employer, you better pay attention to laws about discrimination. The availability of fair workplaces where people don't feel threatened or harassed is an issue that effects us all, and I think as a society we're better for strong laws that protect us that way.

But I don't see the harm of Mac users quietly echoing to each other the superiority of users of their chosen platform, or "furries" sharing fantasies with one another, to give two examples (neither of which include me), despite the fact that expression of those ideas in the public sphere might get those who express them treated with derision and disgust.

Shorthand to be later misinterpreted: I see the problem with expressing a bad attitude in public as though the public should accept and mainstream that attitude. I'm concerned with that form of indignation, however righteous, being carried over into areas where people who may recognize their attitudes and ideas are "niche" want to share them with each other.
My thoughts exactly, a person should have the right to express unpopular opinions in a private setting.
True, and sponsors should have the right to tell them to go blow themselves when they broadcast that unpopular opinion on a national promotional stream.
Nobody was saying that sponsors shouldn't have those rights. All that was being said was that this isn't 1984, so people should have a right to express themselves freely in a private environment.
 

MovieBob

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Realitycrash said:
Father Time said:
Main thing I disagree with is the implication that racial slurs and bigoted speech necessarily cause harm and thus should be immune to 1st amendment protections (if that's not what you were getting at, I apologize).
Nothing (and I repeat; NOTHING) cause harm "by necessity", even a gunshot-wound to the head can miraculously do more good than harm (in some convoluted way), but it is, as it is with everything else, the likelihood of something causing harm that we debate. And since racial slurs and bigoted speech are more likely than not in most occasions to cause harm, it is to be frowned (i.e faced with legal action) upon.
How do racial slurs cause harm? And being offended does not count.
 

ThePS1Fan

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Say what you will about Bob, but when it comes down to the controversial topics he has a habit of saying what needs to be said. Couldn't agree more with this video.
 

illas

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Apr 4, 2010
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evilthecat said:
illas said:
Rape is not intrinsically female victim issue, but it is (quite justifiably) a far more emotive issue for women. Because, to put it bluntly, women suffer it hugely more. Couple this with the fact that men generally display significantly lower fear of violence or physical attack (despite being overwhelmingly more likely to suffer it) and you are left with a predictable outcome. Although rape happens to men, men simply do not fear it. Men have no reason to believe it will happen to them, and normally they're right.

Put yourself in the shoes of a woman for a moment, someone who genuinely does fear rape. If you walk into an environment where guys casually use the word, are you going to spend your time trying to work out what they mean by that. No, you will get the fuck out. Why would you hang around people who treat your worst fear as a trivial thing?

We all say we want more women to play games, but I don't think we really want "women" to play games, we want gamer girls who will fit inoffensively into the preexisting culture and adopt our attitudes and who will never demand that we grow up or behave differently. That probably isn't going to happen. Women won't look at guys using the word "rape" and dismiss it as harmless fun, just like many gay people can't hear the word "fag" without feeling an emotional reaction. It's not about "manning up" or "getting offended over nothing", because this stuff isn't "nothing" to those people.

It will push them away, and it will ultimately lead to the gaming community continuing to be regarded as nothing more than a dumping ground for poorly socialized manchildren. That alone, I think, is reason to stop it.
Please don't misunderstand me, I agree with you.

As I initially suggested, vocabulary like "kill" and "destroy" are just as intimidating and unpleasant as "rape" and we either need to work to remove them from our communities' collective vernacular in order to make us more approachable, or wait until they are assimilated into common vocabulary and so loose their unnecessarily aggressive tone.

At the risk of being pessimistic, I think the latter is more likely.
 

Ashoten

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flying_whimsy said:
This is probably the most pissed off I've ever heard movie bob sound; I don't blame him, either, as I've said the exact same thing on more than one occasion over the last few years. I remember calling some friends out on throwing the word rape around more casually than I was comfortable with and they looked at me like I grew a second head.

Seriously, nerd culture based sexism is something I would seriously like to see go away. Forever.

Had the same thing happen to me as well. Anyone else out there listening? Is this scenario as common as I think it is?
 

Badassassin

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Man, I came to this thread for some delicious rage, but everyone here's so tolerant! ...

Guess I'll have to go get my entertainment elsewhere today
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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Jan 23, 2011
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You misrepresented the source. He referenced Starcraft because the guy he was talking to was comparing the two communities and was noting that the Starcraft community had none of the harassment. I was initially very hard on Bakhtanians, but I've cooled off on him. What he said still stands as monumentally stupid, but I don't think that there was malicious intent behind it. I think it was a guy who dug himself into a hole and didn't know when to stop talking.
 

DrgoFx

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Ok, first of all I laugh at sexist, racist or any sort of joke along those lines. Why? Because I find them so ridiculous that they're funny. But when given serious situations, I decide on someone no matter their race or sex. I don't even take in consideration "Would I look sexist or racist doing this?" If I do, and I'm accused of it, I just give my reasons and leave it at that. Hell, in my "debate" class we have men vs women so many times, and I'm always the neutral stand.

As for something to show how immature I am at times, I just noticed that the bridge of Bob's happy face looks like a penis.
 

Realitycrash

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Father Time said:
Realitycrash said:
Father Time said:
Main thing I disagree with is the implication that racial slurs and bigoted speech necessarily cause harm and thus should be immune to 1st amendment protections (if that's not what you were getting at, I apologize).
Nothing (and I repeat; NOTHING) cause harm "by necessity", even a gunshot-wound to the head can miraculously do more good than harm (in some convoluted way), but it is, as it is with everything else, the likelihood of something causing harm that we debate. And since racial slurs and bigoted speech are more likely than not in most occasions to cause harm, it is to be frowned (i.e faced with legal action) upon.
How do racial slurs cause harm? And being offended does not count.
Lol?
Being offended DOES count. It causes harm in the same way that a sexist comment at the workplace causes harm, or that bullying causes harm in schools. Do I really need to explain why using racial slurs is bad?
 

mrblakemiller

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Two quick things, mostly because I think I'll get ragged on for these views:

I don't feel bad at all the that the female gamer who was targeted with the harrassing words CHOSE to forfeit and quit. That was completely her decision. Should the administrators have done something to insulate her from further comments, like keep that Aris guy away from her, or even disqualify him? Yes, probably. But in the end, he was not forcing shame or pain on her in any way. All we humans can give to each other (aside from physical actions, like a punch) is information. What the other person does to that is their own business. We all have people in our lives that would break our hearts by saying they hated us. We all also have people that could say that and not get any reaction at all from us. That shows that we are the final arbiters of what happens when he hear things we do not like. I got this view from the excellent book Choice Theory by psychologist William Glasser, and I recommend it to everyone. Your happiness is completely under your control.

Secondly, a big "no" to your assertion that a word like "rape" should never be used in certain contexts. If you want that, then I suggest we do the same to the word "kill." That means you've got to find another word or group of words to convey 75% or so of the main objectives of all video games. No one has the right to determine the scope of definitions of the words I use. Telling me to only use a word in certain contexts is a step towards absolute censorship. Besides, like I mentioned before, you have complete control over how you interpret and react to any words you hear.

I really want to dumb this down, because this is a point I'd really like to hit home with everyone who reads this. If you disagree with me and think the word "rape" should never appear on XBOX LIVE (for instance), look at these two sentences:

"Aw man, I just raped you!"

"Aw man, I just killed you!"

Take the criteria you would use to determine the first sentence is unacceptable and apply them to the second sentence. I submit that murdering someone is even worse than raping someone, but we usually don't seem to have a problem with the use of the word "kill" in a metaphorical sense. If we believe we can use a word for more than just its most stark and obvious meaning, then there is no reason to proscribe the use of the word "rape." Intelligent dialogue disagreeing with my judgment would be welcomed.
 

Eri

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Feb 21, 2009
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The only thing I disagree with is the rape thing. Saying I shouldn't use rape is sexist in itself. Men CAN BE RAPED. Both men and women can have valid feelings on the word rape, Don't try to imply that because I'm a man I should not use that word.

mrblakemiller said:
I really want to dumb this down, because this is a point I'd really like to hit home with everyone who reads this. If you disagree with me and think the word "rape" should never appear on XBOX LIVE (for instance), look at these two sentences:

"Aw man, I just raped you!"

"Aw man, I just killed you!"

Take the criteria you would use to determine the first sentence is unacceptable and apply them to the second sentence. I submit that murdering someone is even worse than raping someone, but we usually don't seem to have a problem with the use of the word "kill" in a metaphorical sense. If we believe we can use a word for more than just its most stark and obvious meaning, then there is no reason to proscribe the use of the word "rape." Intelligent dialogue disagreeing with my judgment would be welcomed.
And this. This exactly. Murder is worse than rape, period.
 

thisbymaster

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The problem with going along with Bob's ideas is that it makes gaming an exclusive environment. Which is directly opposite of the idea of gaming as a whole. It is to be all inclusive, all ideas, all genders and all ideologies. Even if you don't agree with them, even if you don't like them. Their ideas are just as valid as yours. Everyone is free to disagree and argue, that is natural for human groups. Gaming isn't some country club that you can kick out the people you disagree with, you are free to reason with them but they are also free to ignore you. If you cannot handle this, then you are the one with the problem.
 

thomaskattus

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Thank you Bob for calling out gaming culture once again. I am definitely sharing this video around so folks can hear this really awesome message.
 

zedel

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While videos like this shouldn't have to exist, we live in a very unkind world in which they have become necessary. This was definitely my favorite of your recent episodes. Thank you for speaking out against misogyny Bob! :)
 

Dascylus

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Found clip on Youtube, 13 minutes long, skipped through it... This guy is an idiot.

No one comment seemed too over the top (I didn't watch the whole thing) and I'm sure the guy thought he was being funny but the sheer non-stop nature of his persistent remarks clearly took it all too far.

My guess, he thought he was being funny and flirtatious and as he clearly has poor social skills regarding women it failed bad.

General rule for any guys out there with similar issues... When in doubt speak to her exactly as you would to any guy.
When I ask a guy about the size of his cock I am clearly joking, if I then say "But dude, seriously, how big is it?" then my friends are gonna start looking at me funny.
If I say to a girl (in the right context) how big are your boobs and... Actually, I have never said that to a woman and I actually cannot think of an appropriate time to ask that outside of clothes shopping.

In short, 21st century people. Times are a changin.
 

Emergent System

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Could see the theme of this episode coming from a mile away when I read the title. It's not surprising that a guy who thinks that a movie where dozens of men murder each other is mysogynistic because it features a scene where a woman is treated as a sex object (because being treated as a sex object is much worse than being treated as a death object) thinks that this is NOT OKAY (but mass murder is presumably okay in his eyes, if you apply that logic consistently).

As is usually for hypersensitive types like this, verbal abuse in the form of sexism, racism, or homophobia is treated as exceptionally horrible; as if these were somehow exceptions rather than the norm for a community that abuses everyone for everything, usually much worse ones than the aforementioned three.

If he just wanted to complain about how some parts of the community - the parts he is a mmeber of, apparently - are thuroughly abuse this way then that's fine, but pretending like the abuse of these groups is something especially horrible is an inherently discriminatory approach to take in itself, even against the group it's arguing on the behalf of, heavily implying as it does that the members of those groups are in more need of protection than "normal" people.

The "it's not okay to use rape as a casual synonym for defeat" is particularily pathetic an emotional appeal. "Rape = no", "murder = yes" shows such a shocking lack of perspective and consistency that it's hard to imagine he's capable of empathizing with other people, or thinking critically, at all, rather than just regurgitating pop culture sentationalism. As is the norm for those who champion the position he's taken, he completely loses his ability to distinguish fantasy from reality the second sex, gender, and race is mentioned.

Ironic that he makes without irony an appeal to "having a serious conversation", when this entire video was nothing close to an attempt at a serious conversation, presenting a perspective so far from nuanced that it cearly made no attempt at being so.
 

Scars Unseen

^ ^ v v < > < > B A
May 7, 2009
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As soon as you said the term "sexism," I immediately groaned, thinking we were in for one of those episodes(shockingly, I don't agree with everything you say, or at least the way you present your stance). And then... you followed that up with a well reasoned argument bereft of your usual vitriol that I find so distasteful. Good topic, and a good episode, Bob.
 

Jackhorse

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I... I don't know where I stand. I'm a gamer and have never thrown discrimination like this about (perhaps because my few forays into voice chat so far have been failed attempts to warn people about spys in TF2) but I'm not sure what should be done or if indeed anything should be done about the 'bad apples'.
Is it our place to deal with the despicable within our community any more than those who read books or watch films should challenge other moviegoers or bookworms? Is our hobby a special case by way of its interactive nature? Because in a multiplayer match we are all co-operating to create the experience does it arise from this that we have a special responsibility to prune our culture? Really in all these spheres should what community to belong to matter, shouldn't we just be against the narrow minded as a society? Frankly I don't know, maybe it just needs a little more reflection.
Are we only to challenge these people or should they be excluded from gaming? You can only really be moral in your own actions, you can't make someone moral by the wrong end of a sword (or banhammer) so it only would make sense to exclude them so that no one might be offended. And if we do away with their right to speak their mind (no matter how bigoted) are we not assuming that we are incontravertibly right before hearing a word out of their mouths, any and all matters should be open to discussion and debate no matter how unpalatable.
But if we allow them to jibe and harass then many girls may choose to remain anonymous or even leave the community, easily a greater loss then the sexists.

I don't know Escapist, I just don't know. You tell me. (politely)

TL:DR a) Is it our place to deal with sexists
b) What should be done?
c) I have a theosaurus.
 

scott91575

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Bob,

You should do a big picture on just free speech. I get so tired of hearing people using the words "free speech" as if it protects their speech from any ramifications. Not does it only deal with how the government can criminally prosecute you (this annoys me when people think being banned from a forum/post deleted is against their free speech), but it also cannot infringe on other rights. So many people are completely ignorant as to what free speech actually means (at least in the US 1st Amendment context).
 

MovieBob

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This recalls to mind an incident that happened to me while I was playing L4D2 several months ago. I was playing with two other males and one female. Everyone was pretty friendly although not terribly good.
Anyway, at the airport level, in the terminal right before the safe-house, we were getting eaten alive. In the end three of us were incapacitated except for the female. At first I tried to tell her to get into the safe house and let us die. By the time she got around to trying that she was mobbed in the safe-room. One of the other guys told her to "just close the door" but he didn't realize that she was mobbed.
So... I say "she can't, she is getting gang-raped in there". As soon as I said it I felt it was very awkward and held down my push to talk button and said "so to speak". She didn't seem to mind though so I didn't say anything else.
I know the last thing I would ever want to do is make someone else feel uncomfortable playing a game they bought. As long as people treat me well I will treat them well. There is certainly a part of gaming culture that IS intrinsically sexist, in an immature sort of way. Although as gamer's continue to get older (especially average age of a gamer) and more females and other minority groups start playing games, the better this problem will get.
 

MovieBob

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Realitycrash said:
Father Time said:
Realitycrash said:
Father Time said:
Main thing I disagree with is the implication that racial slurs and bigoted speech necessarily cause harm and thus should be immune to 1st amendment protections (if that's not what you were getting at, I apologize).
Nothing (and I repeat; NOTHING) cause harm "by necessity", even a gunshot-wound to the head can miraculously do more good than harm (in some convoluted way), but it is, as it is with everything else, the likelihood of something causing harm that we debate. And since racial slurs and bigoted speech are more likely than not in most occasions to cause harm, it is to be frowned (i.e faced with legal action) upon.
How do racial slurs cause harm? And being offended does not count.
Lol?
Being offended DOES count.
Bullshit. Being offended does not cause you harm. But I guess if you want to go down that road all the games that are offensive to the likes of Thompson should be banned.

I don't think you're easily offended but I couldn't find this anywhere else.

Realitycrash said:
It causes harm in the same way that a sexist comment at the workplace causes harm, or that bullying causes harm in schools.
You're going to compare being offended to harrassment and being beaten up? You really want to stick with that?

And workplace comments are protected by the first amendment. You can still get fired for them but you can't be arrested for them.
 

LordLundar

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Eri said:
The only thing I disagree with is the rape thing. Saying I shouldn't use rape is sexist in itself. Men CAN BE RAPED. Both men and women can have valid feelings on the word rape, Don't try to imply that because I'm a man I should not use that word.

mrblakemiller said:
I really want to dumb this down, because this is a point I'd really like to hit home with everyone who reads this. If you disagree with me and think the word "rape" should never appear on XBOX LIVE (for instance), look at these two sentences:

"Aw man, I just raped you!"

"Aw man, I just killed you!"

Take the criteria you would use to determine the first sentence is unacceptable and apply them to the second sentence. I submit that murdering someone is even worse than raping someone, but we usually don't seem to have a problem with the use of the word "kill" in a metaphorical sense. If we believe we can use a word for more than just its most stark and obvious meaning, then there is no reason to proscribe the use of the word "rape." Intelligent dialogue disagreeing with my judgment would be welcomed.
And this. This exactly. Murder is worse than rape, period.
The problem with this theory is context. When playing a game where killing is a part of the game, saying "I just killed you" is an observational statement of the situation. Certainly there are other options like killing your character and such but in a game where killing is the point, equating it to a capital crime is far fetched.

Rape on the other hand has always equated to the unwilling forceful domination of another person and historically is meant in a sexual manner. That does not equate to what's going on in most games and when in the wrong group has ugly results. I have NEVER seen anyone who actually was raped respond well to hearing that, male or female. There are better options (wafflestomped is a personal preference) and the less the term "rape " is used, he happier I'll be.
 

MovieBob

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Agreed with most but i draw the line at claiming rape as defeat is sexist. By psychological definitions rape is a crime of dominance and dominance usually means someone is dominated and being dominated against your will usually means what? If you guess defeat you are correct. Furthermore it is a crime perpetrated by humans against other humans or animals against other animals. back in 2010 when PA did the dickwolves joke they got in unbelievable trouble and now they are the top example of rape culture if you go to Wikipedia. It was not trivialized or misused it was just used in a joke to show someones unwillingness to help because they did not have to and would not be penalized. And subsequently that nothing in warcraft mattered but that was already known. They got shit tons of flak for that. Why? Because unlike any other crime, rape is still viewed as the most heinous thing ever to be perpetrated by one human to ano-sorry one man unto a woman. Rape is the only crime where seeing if the victim might be lying is viewed as something that warrants a death sentence. Frankly if the crime of rape got trivialized we would not lose anything. Because if it got trivialized we would essentially be dousing the powder for straw feminists. While it would be trivialized it would be done so in a way different from murder. The crime would still be bad and when brought up in discussion it would still be an item of sadness but it would lose its potency when it comes to using it as firepower for a messed up agenda. Both from the right and from straw feminists. While murder is viewed as bad and when brought up that someone you know was murdered it is sad but its always tempered by "in a better place" as if to mean his death was meaningless. Death is never used to further an agenda because it is trivialized to worthlessness and it is only sad when it happens to a loved one. That would not happen if rape were trivialized. Killing the weight the word has is the only way to keep it from being used to further something rotten. In short popular view on crime is that death is cheap and rape is not.

I am by no means saying use of rape in place of killed you. It is still stupid and misuse and while i hate such stupidity i do think that rape as a casual synonym for defeat is okay. Stupid and a misuse of the word and i rather not hear it when i get killed in a game but i am okay with trivializing the word. It is already thrown about in the political realm because it is volatile when used improperly. It is a dangerous word. The words weight and volatility is totally and 100% out of balance with the weight of the crime and the word deserves to be taken down a peg. That said the casual use of the word would only mean that(similar to how fascist behavior cannot be called fascist with hope of making others realize it) it would just be ignored when used as a stepping stone. But making the word useless out of context is only one way to stop its overuse. Any other ideas?
 

scott91575

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LordLundar said:
Eri said:
The only thing I disagree with is the rape thing. Saying I shouldn't use rape is sexist in itself. Men CAN BE RAPED. Both men and women can have valid feelings on the word rape, Don't try to imply that because I'm a man I should not use that word.

mrblakemiller said:
I really want to dumb this down, because this is a point I'd really like to hit home with everyone who reads this. If you disagree with me and think the word "rape" should never appear on XBOX LIVE (for instance), look at these two sentences:

"Aw man, I just raped you!"

"Aw man, I just killed you!"

Take the criteria you would use to determine the first sentence is unacceptable and apply them to the second sentence. I submit that murdering someone is even worse than raping someone, but we usually don't seem to have a problem with the use of the word "kill" in a metaphorical sense. If we believe we can use a word for more than just its most stark and obvious meaning, then there is no reason to proscribe the use of the word "rape." Intelligent dialogue disagreeing with my judgment would be welcomed.
And this. This exactly. Murder is worse than rape, period.
The problem with this theory is context. When playing a game where killing is a part of the game, saying "I just killed you" is an observational statement of the situation. Certainly there are other options like killing your character and such but in a game where killing is the point, equating it to a capital crime is far fetched.

Rape on the other hand has always equated to the unwilling forceful domination of another person and historically is meant in a sexual manner. That does not equate to what's going on in most games and when in the wrong group has ugly results. I have NEVER seen anyone who actually was raped respond well to hearing that, male or female. There are better options (wafflestomped is a personal preference) and the less the term "rape " is used, he happier I'll be.
what about all the poor people that have been wafflestomped? Won't someone think of the wafflestomp victims?!?!
 

grigjd3

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@thisbymaster,

Not all ideas are equally valid. The idea that I can turn into a mushroom and float off to wonderland is not nearly as valid as the concept of, say, gravity. There is absolutely nothing that says I should respect all ideas equally and given the choices, I find it fine to condemn reprehensible behavior. Personally, if people talk like that in my house, I kick them out.
 

PotatoeMan

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thisbymaster said:
The problem with going along with Bob's ideas is that it makes gaming an exclusive environment. Which is directly opposite of the idea of gaming as a whole. It is to be all inclusive, all ideas, all genders and all ideologies. Even if you don't agree with them, even if you don't like them. Their ideas are just as valid as yours. Everyone is free to disagree and argue, that is natural for human groups. Gaming isn't some country club that you can kick out the people you disagree with, you are free to reason with them but they are also free to ignore you. If you cannot handle this, then you are the one with the problem.
I agree and I say the reason this is so common is that people are trying to annoy their opponent and when people can speak freely they will say things you don't agree with or are unacceptable to your beliefs. You could say this is a kickback against the PC culture we live in where people can't say offensive things no matter the context or situation. It's the internet grow thicker skin.

People also apply their own beliefs to these things for example I have heard female colleagues say ?all men are bastards? around male friends and colleagues but I have never heard any male friends or colleagues or friends say ?all women are bitches? around female colleagues or friends. I?m not saying it doesn?t happen or that it is acceptable in real life. Male bashing is more socially acceptable than female bashing. This is probably down to the fact that men are less likely to challenge a woman on something like this, to be honest it doesn?t bother me except for the double standard.
 

person427

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Ugh. This had to be said, yes, but it was said in the wrong place. The Escapist is (mostly) made up of a mature community and chances are the people who really need to see this video won't. The only way to fix this is to spread the video. Hurry, we must spread it!
 

Epiku

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Thank you, Bob! Just.. thank you!
I had heard about this from the forums and, I.. I had to stop reading it part way through..

I hope Bakhtanians' apology is sincere. A part of me just.. doesn't want to believe people genuinely say most of the stuff they say over the internet.

The fighting genre is one of the genres I first learned when my uncle and my sister showed me games.
I really have only played with my family and a few close friends, and I have yet to really try online.

Seeing this, and the other comments, maybe I should avoid that, or at least, just not have my mic set up.
I don't understand "trash talking," anyways... o.o

Still.. thank you.
 

him over there

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thisbymaster said:
The problem with going along with Bob's ideas is that it makes gaming an exclusive environment. Which is directly opposite of the idea of gaming as a whole. It is to be all inclusive, all ideas, all genders and all ideologies. Even if you don't agree with them, even if you don't like them. Their ideas are just as valid as yours. Everyone is free to disagree and argue, that is natural for human groups. Gaming isn't some country club that you can kick out the people you disagree with, you are free to reason with them but they are also free to ignore you. If you cannot handle this, then you are the one with the problem.
So you are saying that instead of being entitled to not be offended and kick people out we are all entitled to name call back those who name called us? Mutual Retaliation instead of proactive removal of those with almost seemingly universal unpopular or rude opinions? If so I think that I need to figure out how your brain works because I need to get in on it.
 

Canadish

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PotatoeMan said:
thisbymaster said:
The problem with going along with Bob's ideas is that it makes gaming an exclusive environment. Which is directly opposite of the idea of gaming as a whole. It is to be all inclusive, all ideas, all genders and all ideologies. Even if you don't agree with them, even if you don't like them. Their ideas are just as valid as yours. Everyone is free to disagree and argue, that is natural for human groups. Gaming isn't some country club that you can kick out the people you disagree with, you are free to reason with them but they are also free to ignore you. If you cannot handle this, then you are the one with the problem.
I agree and I say the reason this is so common is that people are trying to annoy their opponent and when people can speak freely they will say things you don't agree with or are unacceptable to your beliefs. You could say this is a kickback against the PC culture we live in where people can't say offensive things no matter the context or situation. It's the internet grow thicker skin.

People also apply their own beliefs to these things for example I have heard female colleagues say ?all men are bastards? around male friends and colleagues but I have never heard any male friends or colleagues or friends say ?all women are bitches? around female colleagues or friends. I?m not saying it doesn?t happen or that it is acceptable in real life. Male bashing is more socially acceptable than female bashing. This is probably down to the fact that men are less likely to challenge a woman on something like this, to be honest it doesn?t bother me except for the double standard.
Can't argue this.

I'd never dream of generalizing all women and speaking to them in such a way, because of how I was brought up. It's just wrong to do that to any group, for obvious reasons.

Meanwhile however, I'm getting constantly told "ALL MEN ARE BASTARDS" by my girlfriend's drunken friend whenever a group of us all go out for the evening and this is considered acceptable.
As the above poster, it doesn't make me angry. But the clear double standard does.

EDIT: Thinking on, one last point. As much as I agree with Bob that these people are wrong in this case...
That does not make them objectively wrong. It's not our place to tell people how to speak and what they are allowed and not allowed to say. No law changes that in my mind.
It's our job to reason with them. To try show them WHY they are wrong. To try help them understand others point of view.
Not to threaten them to agree with our opinion under threat of financial ruin/jail.
 

ReiverCorrupter

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Eri said:
The only thing I disagree with is the rape thing. Saying I shouldn't use rape is sexist in itself. Men CAN BE RAPED. Both men and women can have valid feelings on the word rape, Don't try to imply that because I'm a man I should not use that word.

mrblakemiller said:
I really want to dumb this down, because this is a point I'd really like to hit home with everyone who reads this. If you disagree with me and think the word "rape" should never appear on XBOX LIVE (for instance), look at these two sentences:

"Aw man, I just raped you!"

"Aw man, I just killed you!"

Take the criteria you would use to determine the first sentence is unacceptable and apply them to the second sentence. I submit that murdering someone is even worse than raping someone, but we usually don't seem to have a problem with the use of the word "kill" in a metaphorical sense. If we believe we can use a word for more than just its most stark and obvious meaning, then there is no reason to proscribe the use of the word "rape." Intelligent dialogue disagreeing with my judgment would be welcomed.
And this. This exactly. Murder is worse than rape, period.
Gee... So let me get this straight... When I say "Ha! Ha! I just tore out your throat!" after I knife someone in Battlefield 3, it's almost as bad as saying I raped someone? I'm pretty sure you're wrong. Tearing out someone's throat with a big-ass knife is perfectly socially acceptable, you just better not make it into a sexual thing.

People want to object to what language you use when you simulate killing someone. F-n' Hilarious.

OT: What's your point Bob? You don't approve of people who use sexist/bigoted language? Someone get him a freaking metal for controversy. I honestly don't understand what he's suggesting, I'm pretty sure everyone who uses that type of language is already aware of how socially unacceptable it is, which is why they only use it anonymously. So what is Bob suggesting we do about it?

I don't think anyone has actually made the argument that it's OKAY just because it's an entrenched practice. I think the argument is that because it's an entrenched practice there isn't much you can do to stop it, other than implementing something controversial like the system that Blizzard tried to use that forced people to use their real names. Is that what Bob is suggesting? Or does he just want to sit around a drum circle, sing Kumbaya, and give lectures over the internet that the target audience isn't going to listen to?
 

Robert Ewing

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I'm strongly against all the nitpicky 'sexist' things that are being rammed into our consciousness. Like it was a thing here in Britain were you'd get told off in public buildings for saying things along the lines of 'hey guys' and other phrases that would otherwise not include women in it when there was a women present. I'm so glad that got shot down quicker than a Guantanamo escapee. It's just utterly stupid and pointless, and a waste of time. And all it does is help sexism become such a joke topic.

But THIS is a perfect example of what types of sexism needs to be addressed.

Although I don't agree with the not okay using 'rape' as synonymous with getting beat. Drunk people say 'I'm slaughtered' which infers they were cut down and mutilated. Guys who hate work will say that 'work was hell' as if to infer that everyone they came into contact with was a tortured soul that had been sentenced to damnation for all eternity. And that's not to mention that they hate work. They harbor such a deep loathing for it, and anything involved that they hate something.

It's just a small mutation of the English language I suppose. I dunno, i'm sure other people's opinions will be different.
 

ayvee

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Jan 29, 2010
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Eri said:
The only thing I disagree with is the rape thing. Saying I shouldn't use rape is sexist in itself. Men CAN BE RAPED. Both men and women can have valid feelings on the word rape, Don't try to imply that because I'm a man I should not use that word.

mrblakemiller said:
I really want to dumb this down, because this is a point I'd really like to hit home with everyone who reads this. If you disagree with me and think the word "rape" should never appear on XBOX LIVE (for instance), look at these two sentences:

"Aw man, I just raped you!"

"Aw man, I just killed you!"

Take the criteria you would use to determine the first sentence is unacceptable and apply them to the second sentence. I submit that murdering someone is even worse than raping someone, but we usually don't seem to have a problem with the use of the word "kill" in a metaphorical sense. If we believe we can use a word for more than just its most stark and obvious meaning, then there is no reason to proscribe the use of the word "rape." Intelligent dialogue disagreeing with my judgment would be welcomed.
And this. This exactly. Murder is worse than rape, period.
At what point was it said that men should not use that word? I don't remember this being gender specific.
 

Skjutentrast

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The Internet is a big place. I'm a fan of ignoring shit you don't like. Twenty-motherfucking-twelve and people are still bitching about men being as sexist when they talk to other men?
 

thisbymaster

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him over there said:
thisbymaster said:
The problem with going along with Bob's ideas is that it makes gaming an exclusive environment. Which is directly opposite of the idea of gaming as a whole. It is to be all inclusive, all ideas, all genders and all ideologies. Even if you don't agree with them, even if you don't like them. Their ideas are just as valid as yours. Everyone is free to disagree and argue, that is natural for human groups. Gaming isn't some country club that you can kick out the people you disagree with, you are free to reason with them but they are also free to ignore you. If you cannot handle this, then you are the one with the problem.
So you are saying that instead of being entitled to not be offended and kick people out we are all entitled to name call back those who name called us? Mutual Retaliation instead of proactive removal of those with almost seemingly universal unpopular or rude opinions? If so I think that I need to figure out how your brain works because I need to get in on it.
It is simple, I may not agree with what you have to say but I will fight to the death for your right to say it.
 

mandalorian2298

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Nov 7, 2010
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Disclaimer: The first sentence or the post that follows it is not meant to be baiting. I am a professor of philosophy and this is a sincere statement of my feelings.

Some of the views expressed in this video hurt me on a deep emotional level. If it was just one man's views then I wouldn't give it much thought since mistakes happen and it's often very hard to see, admit and correct one's own mistake. However, the delusion in question seems to have spread over large portions of humanity, including some of our best and brightest (Movie Bob being an example for both), and I am starting to feel like a the last sane guy in the asylum.

The mistake I am talking about is:


Unlike saying proven objective truths (for example "Randomly attacking people on the street will not make you popular among the police officers."), expressing purely subjective opinions does not obligate other people to agree with you (for example, I believe that the answer to most of philosophical question can be found in one or more episodes of 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer', but I do not think that the fact Stanford didn't include that show in their curriculum makes Stanford's philosophy program inadequate.)


So far, I am sure that most of you are on board with me. However, for reasons that are entirely mysterious to me, most people believe that, if they wish it REALLY hard, their subjective opinions will MAGICALLY BECOME OBJECTIVE TRUTHS! Aalakazam!

For the betterment of the human race, I present you with a short list of things that DO NOT transmogrify your opinions into objective truths:

1. Shouting.
2. The fact that YOU really believe it to be true, despite the lack of conclusive evidence (unless you are being played by Kevin Costner).
3. The fact that you find the opposing opinion offensive does not make you right, it makes you small-minded (or else every racist, homophobe or fanatic of any kind would be a moral authority by virtue of insanity).
4. Equating the act of expressing an opinion that you disagree with or using an expression that you dislike (but which in itself is not meant as an actual threat against the life or well-being of another person) with an act of aggression does not make you extra sensitive; it makes you insane. (this seems to be stupidity du jour these days. As a method of reality check, I invite all of you 'words can hurt just as bad' people to go to find a rape victim and say to him/her: "What happened to you is terrible. It is just as bad as using 'rape' as a casual synonym for defeat.")

People do not need your permission to have or to express an opinion. If you think that they are wrong - challenge them. If you know them to be logically incorrect - prove it. If you can't but you are still bothered that they are allowed to freely speak their mind -

THEN
GROW
THE
*CENSORED FOR THE SAKE OF ALL THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW THIS WORD EXISTS*
UP!!!

ADDED on 3.7.2012. 9.18h

5. The fact that many people share your opinion does not prove your opinion to an objective truth (if you disagree, then please prove me wrong. Gather a herd of people who also don't believe me and win the lottery 10 times in a row by making everyone share your belief that you are going to win. :)
 

The Random One

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I was getting tired of seeing a bunch of columns, videos etc. about this incident, then I remembered that unless there was a (perhaps disproportionate) response to every instance of prejudice in nerd culture, assholes like Aris won't get it through their thick heads that no, it's not okay. Bob's response was particularly well made.

I find that the main problem with gaming subculture isn't so much that it's racist/sexist/whatever, but that it hates change and reasonable argument. People will defend sexual harassment in the same way that they'll defend that overpowered classes shouldn't be changed - out of an emotional outset that equals a small part of the experience with the whole, without any care or attention for The Big Picture?. This kind of environment will foster sickening viewpoints like those the same way a damp, dark closed fosters moss.

Like moss, the only thing to do against it is to put it out into the sun. Bring those problems into full view and let everyone know that it's bad until it's gone. Preach on, brothers and sisters.
 

him over there

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thisbymaster said:
him over there said:
thisbymaster said:
The problem with going along with Bob's ideas is that it makes gaming an exclusive environment. Which is directly opposite of the idea of gaming as a whole. It is to be all inclusive, all ideas, all genders and all ideologies. Even if you don't agree with them, even if you don't like them. Their ideas are just as valid as yours. Everyone is free to disagree and argue, that is natural for human groups. Gaming isn't some country club that you can kick out the people you disagree with, you are free to reason with them but they are also free to ignore you. If you cannot handle this, then you are the one with the problem.
So you are saying that instead of being entitled to not be offended and kick people out we are all entitled to name call back those who name called us? Mutual Retaliation instead of proactive removal of those with almost seemingly universal unpopular or rude opinions? If so I think that I need to figure out how your brain works because I need to get in on it.
It is simple, I may not agree with what you have to say but I will fight to the death for your right to say it.
Good to know there are thick skinned people like you here. I always told myself that tolerance is a two way street. A person who is racist, a homophobe, misogynist or what have you can keep those thoughts, they can say those thoughts, they can make people angry with those thoughts and words. The second they hurt people (being offended is not hurting people by the way) you can punish them, but you can't punish them for thinking or saying them because then you're persecuting them for what they think.You don't get to stop them, you just get to make them mad back.
 

MB202

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I DO like it when Bob gets into deeper subjects, or more controversial topics. I also like it when he has fun with topics, especially the comic book episodes. I don't like his attempts at humor, though, they all pretty much suck. Other than that, MovieBob rocks!

As to the subject matter, it's not gaming-related, but I go to a forum where people suffer from abuse and discrimination (at least some of them do, anyway) and that forum is a safe haven for then to just relax, make friends, and talking about controversial issues head-on and not be afraid to address controversial issues in stuff they really like.

The forum? Equestria Daily. The controversial stuff? Can be anything, really, but sometimes it's even the stuff that gathered us there in the first place: My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.

http://www.equestriaforums.com/

Don't think a little girl's show CAN be controversial?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2CRjPO73Dg

FYI, this was a censored scene available on iTunes, because the gray pegasus was deemed offensive to those who had mentally disabled friends and family. Yeah. :/

So yeah, anti-intellectual discussion, and disrespectful behavior is pretty much not welcome there, and I, for one, am glad for that.
 

loudestmute

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Oct 21, 2008
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Let's compare and contrast a little, shall we?

Case 1) Rush Limbaugh, 'Merican talk radio hound who routinely compares giving females equal standing in culture to the Nazi regime, made some disparaging remarks about a female law school student arguing before Congress for the medical and financial needs for birth control to be covered by health insurance programs. An apology was issued after his sponsors started walking out. The response from his contemporaries has been universally "Why did he have to use those words?"

Case 2) Bakhtanian uses language waaaaaaaaay more emotionally scarring than that of a blowhard radio personality towards someone he's supposed to be helping, then proceeds to say that his words are valid because, well, everyone else has been doing this for years now. An apology was issued after he had been called out on his offensive behavior by various gaming news sites. The response from his contemporaries has been a mix between "Why is this even an issue?" and "You got a problem with this, go play something else."

I guess the part that really puzzles me in this whole matter is this: The gaming industry has built itself around regular advances in technology. Most of the critically acclaimed titles from the past three to five years have been challenging the conventional notions of what should be expected when you pick up a controller. So why do we allow ourselves to not only enshrine, but vigorously defend a part of the surrounding culture? What sort of cognitive disconnect is required to demand regular changes in the formula from Capcom's fighting games, and then antagonize anyone who spots room for improvement in the surrounding community?

Gaming is built on change. Why is the gaming fandom intent on resisting change?
 

Francisco Aguirre

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I agree with you, and everything you have said. That's not free speech and I'd be happy to support you argument, or stake someone who's too suborn to admit that there wrong. But I also want to bring up something to ponder on. Racism is wrong, but even the slightest mention of someone being racist seems to bring down the hammer of justice just a bit too early. Mainly RE5. No one complained when RE4 came out, and being Mexican, I can understand why we didn't get offended. Mainly because we have a long stained history with the Spanish, so were okay with it. But I think the issue of racism is getting more and more sensitive.
 

sapphireofthesea

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GaltarDude1138 said:
I don't dig out this clip often, but when I do...

[youtube=whytAReStUQ&feature=related




...it's usually warranted.

OT: I agree on the position that "rape" should never be used as a synonym for "failure", but I feel it's pretty well-ingrained in not only the annoying 13-year old population, but also in older-age gamers as well. I don't know if we'll ever get rid of it.[/QUOTE]


I can't begin to describe how fitting that clip was (and it reminded me of one of the best movies ever).

As for the topic, I grew up in the Caribbean. While woman effectively don't play videogames in the island I grew up in, the gaming community was always happy to welcome anyone in and have a good time. So I haven't really come across this mentality that anyone, appart from a dribbler*, would fundamentally be of a lower playing class.
So yea, news to me and bullshit to his line of logic. Maybe he has a confined circle for which eliminating deliberately hurtful -isms would damage them, but the wider community I know, while having fun with bashing every (including oneself) would never intentionally aim to insult or hurt someone with -isms or anything else. Tense, determined players we were, cutthroat yep, in anyway inclined to consider someone inferior, never.


*We had a few slower learners in our circle of players but they were excillent people and did do well. But there was one, only one, who made a clear and definite effort to completely ignore anything we said, anything even a scantioned judge said, in favor of his opinion, even when he himself knew he was missing something. That my friends is what I call a dribbler, and while I always had fun with the slower people and had endles patience, I completely gave up on that one guy on the ground that if he didn't want to listen I was wasting my breath.
 

el_kabong

Shark Rodeo Champion
Mar 18, 2010
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illas said:
I agreed with Bob right up to the point of using "rape" as a descriptor.

In the standard gaming scenario, "rape" is not being used to describe what literally happened. Typically, is being used hyperbolically to describe the incident eg: in the case of a vicious, unjustifiable, penetrative assault. Criticising it on this level seems odd, since we don't complain about using "killed", "owned", "butchered" or "destroyed" in such a circumstance (and if one is interpreting it literally, murder is equally - if not more - serious than rape).

Furthermore, rape is not an intrinsically female-victim issue either. I would go as far as to suggest that one guy saying "I raped you" to another guy to be more a homosexual threat characterized by desires of non-gender-specific sexual dominance than a product of male-on-female rape being glamorised.
Pretty much 100 percent agreement on this. You may wish to argue that society as a whole has become more crass and more commonly uses extremely negative words, but that isn't necessarily sexism. Most people who use the term "rape" in the sense of colloquialism are just as likely to use it to describe themselves. For example, when forced to listen to music I find less then pleasurable, I may refer to it as "raping my ears". Is it a vulgar way to say that I dislike the music? Yes. Is it sexist? No. Could I be a little gentler about it? Sure, but where's the fun in that?

Not saying that it never is sexist...but it isn't always.
 

Tanis

The Last Albino
Aug 30, 2010
5,266
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If Capcom had any class that bearded fat-ass would have been kicked off the show.

But, hey, this IS Capcom we're talking about.
 

sapphireofthesea

New member
Jul 18, 2010
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mandalorian2298 said:
Disclaimer: The first sentence or the post that follows it is not meant to be baiting. I am a professor of philosophy and this is a sincere statement of my feelings.

Some of the views expressed in this video hurt me on a deep emotional level. If it was just one man's views then I wouldn't give it much thought since mistakes happen and it's often very hard to see, admit and correct one's own mistake. However, the delusion in question seems to have spread over large portions of humanity, including some of our best and brightest (Movie Bob being an example for both), and I am starting to feel like a the last sane guy in the asylum.

The mistake I am talking about is:


Unlike saying proven objective truths (for example "Randomly attacking people on the street will not make you popular among the police officers."), expressing purely subjective opinions does not obligate other people to agree with you (for example, I believe that the answer to most of philosophical question can be found in one or more episodes of 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer', but I do not think that the fact Stanford didn't include that show in their curriculum makes Stanford's philosophy program inadequate.)


So far, I am sure that most of you are on board with me. However, for reasons that are entirely mysterious to me, most people believe that, if they wish it REALLY hard, their subjective opinions will MAGICALLY BECOME OBJECTIVE TRUTHS! Aalakazam!

For the betterment of the human race, I present you with a short list of things that DO NOT transmogrify your opinions into objective truths:

1. Shouting.
2. The fact that YOU really believe it to be true, despite the lack of conclusive evidence (unless you are being played by Kevin Costner).
3. The fact that you find the opposing opinion offensive does not make you right, it makes you small-minded (or else every racist, homophobe or fanatic of any kind would be a moral authority by virtue of insanity).
4. Equating the act of expressing an opinion that you disagree with or using an expression that you dislike (but which in itself is not meant as an actual threat against the life or well-being of another person) with an act of aggression does not make you extra sensitive; it makes you insane. (this seems to be stupidity du jour these days. As a method of reality check, I invite all of you 'words can hurt just as bad' people to go to find a rape victim and say to him/her: "What happened to you is terrible. It is just as bad as using 'rape' as a casual synonym for defeat.")

People do not need your permission to have or to express an opinion. If you think that they are wrong - challenge them. If you know them to be logically incorrect - prove it. If you can't but you are still bothered that they are allowed to freely speak their mind -

THEN
GROW
THE
*CENSORED FOR THE SAKE OF ALL THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW THIS WORD EXISTS*
UP!!!

Mr. Psychology professor. I am aware that this was ment for the non-science crowd. However, being a scientist myself and in the interest of further enforcing the validity of your argument, please provide some references for the points you have made, otherwise you are at risk of finding your own statements fall victim to your line of logic.

I personally find your above, unsupported, statement flawed, without re-enforcement, and ignore-ant of the possibly of collective moralities playing a part in supporting a right or wrong ideal. I am no expert but I am aware of the contention in psychology surrounding the idea of morality. I would love to give references myself but it is late and it is not my field of study so I have no groundiing to make an informed search of the literature.
 

Shjade

Chaos in Jeans
Feb 2, 2010
838
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Diction minutiae opener: while it's not a friendly or positive term to use in any context, "rape" isn't a sexist term. It's not gender-oriented. I also don't think it'd be considered more pleasant to say you repeatedly gutted the enemy team with a your KA-BAR before shooting them in the head over and over again (being what you literally did in the game) than it is to simply say you raped them. Neither of these actions would be considered socially positive if they took place in the real world; I'm not sure I see why one is looked upon less well than the other. Yeah, I'm sure some people get upset when they hear someone say, "Dude, I totally raped him hard," but I'm betting those people would be equally upset by, say, "Dude, I totally shoved my fist through his skull and tore out his spine from the neck up" (why hello there, Mortal Kombat). How is one worse than the other, exactly? Or is the recommendation that players simply not talk about their gameplay at all?

More on topic: yeah, this kind of behavior is prevalent, and not great. One of the more "wtf" terms I recall from when I was playing various fighting games in the arcade is "Jewed." As a verb. As in, "Oh man I can't believe that super combo missed - you got so jewed!" I just had to look at the guy like, Really? Did you just say that? Was reminded of this when it came up again in a Mumble conversation while playing League of Legends a few days ago (MOBA community has an unfortunately high number of similarities to the fighting game community, mostly in the negative aspects). The speaker didn't seem to understand why I was disapproving of the usage.

Honestly though, I'd say it's more of an individual thing than a community one. In those arcade fighting groups I'd play with, maybe one or two people out of about twenty were abrasively vulgar. Likewise, that one guy in Mumble is the only one of the group who uses that kind of language. Point being, Aris' argument re: "This is the fighting game community" is bullshit. It's part of the fighting game community because those people are in it at the moment; it's not some inherent aspect of the community. The community won't be "lost" if that kind of trash talk suddenly evaporates. It's not an integral element of the thing. It's just crap. Now, I will say trash talk, as a concept, is an immutable part of that community. It's part of almost every competitive community I can think of; it's just the type of talk that changes.

Changing the type of trash talk common to the fighting game community won't change the community. It'll just make it less caustic to be around.
 

Zydrate

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I haven't liked Bob in several of his movie reviews, but I continue to generally enjoy his Big Picture videos.
And he was completely right on the money regarding this subject.
 

Imp_Emissary

Mages Rule, and Dragons Fly!
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castlewise said:
I agree. Sexism or racism isn't defined by how you think so much as by your actions. I think if you make sexist jokes which cause women discomfort and grief then you are, by definition, sexist. Whether you think of yourself as sexist or not is a different story. Mediocre bad guys almost never think of themselves as bad guys.

On a different note: Its interesting to see how this matches up with your political correctness video. Its not that they are incompatible by any means. Its just that watching those two videos gives a sense of the sometimes narrow region in between being an ass and being politically incorrect.
I remember that episode. It was great.

On topic; why does Bob think we hate these episodes?

Oh right....a lot of us are gamers. Why must those bad stereotypes come from real places? Dark, dim, and evil places.
 

Akio91

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Dec 21, 2011
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A few things. First off, Aris is a piece of shit who shouldn't be defended. Second off, TRASH TALK IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF NOT ONLY THE FIGHTING GAME COMMUNITY, BUT OF COMPETITIVE GAMING AS A WHOLE! I'm sure the woman involved knew that going in. Third, Aris is a piece of shit who shouldn't be defended.
 

zehydra

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The only thing I really disagreed with Bob on this one (and I disagree with him on a number of things in this show), is his assertion that "Fairness" is not "Censorship". Or rather, that the justice system punishing people for using hate-speech is not "censorship".
 

Shjade

Chaos in Jeans
Feb 2, 2010
838
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zehydra said:
The only thing I really disagreed with Bob on this one (and I disagree with him on a number of things in this show), is his assertion that "Fairness" is not "Censorship". Or rather, that the justice system punishing people for using hate-speech is not "censorship".
But it isn't. Being punished for something you say isn't censorship; censorship prevents things from being said/heard in the first place.
 

ManInRed

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Gaming has become so ubiquitous the problems its community faces mirrors the problems all of society faces. That doesn't make these issues any less important to identify and discuss, but your naturally going to get gamers to be all defensive when you label it their problem and not just a problem in society.

So what of the fighting game community? Certainly a boys club among gaming groups, but having numerous interactions with them I cannot say misogyny is part of that culture. Offensive smack talk however, is very much a part of that culture. But there is a reason for this, that tied to the competitiveness of this culture. Every time you got an idiot like this shouting their mouth off, it draws attention to the fighting game community and encourages other people to join. The sort of competitive people that want to kick the ass of that jerk and everyone in the community like them.

This is not the first time it has happen, and it probably won't be the last time. But I would be really glad to see a ton of women getting competitive in the fighting community in response to this. Like a wrestling villain, these jerks are destined to lose to more intelligent and empathetic individuals, and it is usually at the hands of the people they try to offend. I would wager that is what the majority of the fighting game community would like to see. It has happened before after all, make it happen again.
 

zehydra

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Shjade said:
zehydra said:
The only thing I really disagreed with Bob on this one (and I disagree with him on a number of things in this show), is his assertion that "Fairness" is not "Censorship". Or rather, that the justice system punishing people for using hate-speech is not "censorship".
But it isn't. Being punished for something you say isn't censorship; censorship prevents things from being said/heard in the first place.
Which is exactly what the threat of punishment does.
If you can't say something for fear of being punished by law, then it's censorship.

Some will disagree with me on this, but we have laws and punishment not for justice, but to prevent crime from occurring in the first place.
 

Lilani

Sometimes known as CaitieLou
May 27, 2009
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GaltarDude1138 said:
I don't dig out this clip often, but when I do...

[youtube=whytAReStUQ&feature=related




...it's usually warranted.

OT: I agree on the position that "rape" should never be used as a synonym for "failure", but I feel it's pretty well-ingrained in not only the annoying 13-year old population, but also in older-age gamers as well. I don't know if we'll ever get rid of it.[/QUOTE]
We are Jamaica, we have a bobsled team~

Anyway, hats off to you Bob. I enjoy a lot of TF2 myself, and as a female it can get frustrating at times. If I join a new server and use my mic, I'm bound to see about 5 friend invites when I log off. And if it's not creepers it's little 12 year olds telling me to suck their dick or get in the kitchen. It's not even original or amusing, it's just mindless grieving, and the only reason it's allowed to go on is there are enough who either remain passive or neutral to validate it.
 

Lilani

Sometimes known as CaitieLou
May 27, 2009
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Akio91 said:
A few things. First off, Aris is a piece of shit who shouldn't be defended. Second off, TRASH TALK IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF NOT ONLY THE FIGHTING GAME COMMUNITY, BUT OF COMPETITIVE GAMING AS A WHOLE! I'm sure the woman involved knew that going in. Third, Aris is a piece of shit who shouldn't be defended.
Lol what? How old are you? Are you trying to troll or something?
 

Kapol

Watch the spinning tails...
May 2, 2010
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This is talking about the same community that has the game Leisure Suit Larry. Overall I do agree. The guy that the first half of the video was about was simply using a scapegoat to justify actions which really can't be justified. On top of scaring away potential female gamers from games and being proud of being a member of the 'group,' it also gives us all a bad black eye. It really helps justify the opinions of the opponents of games. The section who believe that kind of behavior is small but gets a lot of newstime. Just like the same thing happening in the rest of media and similar things.


But at the same time I don't like the double standard that exists for many remarks. You mentioned casual racism and sexism, but those exist on both sides of the fence. It just gets viewed differently. Now that comes from a large cultural difference not only between races, but genders. But it's still there. Like the fact a woman can say 'all men are pigs' without problems and normally are meant with agreement; but if a man were to say 'all women are sluts' which is essence the same thing (considering an entire gender as being focused on sexual actions, either leering or otherwise) then at best they're considered sexist. At worst they're sued. The same thing goes for racial tensions.

The common excuse for that is 'well this gender/race was oppressed for so long' or 'they still face negitive views they don't deserve.' That's true. But at the same time you can't really say we live in a truely equal society when there's still a large gap between what's acceptable for the two groups. There are racists in every race, and sexists in both genders. It isn't something exclusive to one group. Now should it be more acceptable for one group over another? I don't think so, but I can understand why it is.

Don't get me wrong. The slurs are stupid no matter where or who they come from. And in the gaming community, where these kinds of things happen often (though it mostly seems to be younger players or 'swearing teens' from my experiences), it's an issue that we really do need to address. But keeping that double standard in mind is important.
 

ReiverCorrupter

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Jun 4, 2010
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mandalorian2298 said:
Disclaimer: The first sentence or the post that follows it is not meant to be baiting. I am a professor of philosophy and this is a sincere statement of my feelings.
You realize that stating that you're a professor of philosophy at the outset of your post is at best a non sequitur, and is likely to be construed as an argument ad hominem that your opinion is correct. I submit to you, sir, that your supposed disclaimer is itself an attempt to bait people. ;p

mandalorian2298 said:
The mistake I am talking about is:

Unlike saying proven objective truths (for example "Randomly attacking people on the street will not make you popular among the police officers."), expressing purely subjective opinions does not obligate other people to agree with you
How are you using the term 'objective'? The proposition "so-and-so holds such-and-such opinion" could very well be considered objectively true if it is a publicly accessible fact that the person in question holds the opinion in question. And what is a subjective opinion? Aren't opinions subjective by definition? If I believe that the moral truth is best expressed by Kant's Categorical Imperative, is that a subjective opinion?

Are you alluding to the descriptive/normative distinction? The descriptive fact that someone holds an opinion does not mean that said person should hold that opinion or that the rule expressed by the opinion has prescriptive force. Unless, of course, one accepts a version of moral relativism. But I frankly don't understand the point of moral relativism; why not just commit to moral anti-realism or non-cognitivism at that point?

mandalorian2298 said:
So far, I am sure that most of you are on board with me. However, for reasons that are entirely mysterious to me, most people believe that, if they wish it REALLY hard, their subjective opinions will MAGICALLY BECOME OBJECTIVE TRUTHS! Aalakazam!
If everyone became Nietzscheans we wouldn't have this problem. Largely because everyone would realize that the very thought of an objective moral truth is absurd.

mandalorian2298 said:
For the betterment of the human race, I present you with a short list of things that DO NOT transmogrify your opinions into objective truths: (snip)
I vaguely recall them telling us as much when I was in kindergarten. If it didn't sink in then, there isn't much chance of it happening now. I find it hilarious that we don't teach any courses on logic or critical thinking until college. Doesn't that just say it all?

mandalorian2298 said:
4. Equating the act of expressing an opinion that you disagree with or using an expression that you dislike (but which in itself is not meant as an actual threat against the life or well-being of another person) with an act of aggression does not make you extra sensitive; it makes you insane. (this seems to be stupidity du jour these days. As a method of reality check, I invite all of you 'words can hurt just as bad' people to go to find a rape victim and say to him/her: "What happened to you is terrible. It is just as bad as using 'rape' as a casual synonym for defeat.")
Couldn't have said it better myself. Society won't become better by conditioning people to whine and cry at the slightest offense. What you'll get is a society of whimpering idiots who think it is an act of violence to question someone's beliefs. People need to grow a thicker skin and a sense of humor.
 

Shjade

Chaos in Jeans
Feb 2, 2010
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zehydra said:
Shjade said:
zehydra said:
The only thing I really disagreed with Bob on this one (and I disagree with him on a number of things in this show), is his assertion that "Fairness" is not "Censorship". Or rather, that the justice system punishing people for using hate-speech is not "censorship".
But it isn't. Being punished for something you say isn't censorship; censorship prevents things from being said/heard in the first place.
Which is exactly what the threat of punishment does.
If you can't say something for fear of being punished by law, then it's censorship.

Some will disagree with me on this, but we have laws and punishment not for justice, but to prevent crime from occurring in the first place.
Discouragement != censorship. Yeah, laws and consequences for breaking them are intended to discourage criminal activity, but when that criminal activity happens anyway, what follows? Punishment applicable to the action. Whatever happened still happened.

Likewise, if you say some horrific offensive harmful thing and get punished for it, you haven't been censored. Whatever you said is still out there, particularly if it was written rather than spoken. It isn't blacked out or removed (unless there's a legal obligation to do so - libel etc.). No censorship took place.

If you really want to keep going with the comparison to crime, I'd liken censorship to a physical barricade that literally denies you the ability to break into someone's home to steal from them, rather than the penalty for breaking in and stealing things. You flat out can't do it, regardless of what the consequences might be if you could.
 

Harbinger_

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Jan 8, 2009
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Sounds as if you were holding back on not yelling near the end there.

I don't quite understand the obsession with homosexuality and the desire to put it into every part of every media these days. Just because it's becoming an acknowledged part of society doesn't mean that it has to be shoe-horned into everything.

I don't hate homosexuals and I believe in equal rights but I find the act of homosexuality to be disgusting and repulsive and I don't like how mass media is shoving it in our faces. (Then again I don't like it when they show it with different genders either.)

I'm not sure if everyone (media) is just trying to be more 'in-depth', 'cutting edge' or 'thumb on the pulse of society' or if they all think that this is a cause that isn't being championed enough.

Once this is no longer such an issue I'd like these people to bring other issues that plague our nation such as poverty and crime and disease and maybe address those perhaps just as reverently.

It of course won't happen because those things don't do one thing that homosexuality does and that is be controversial. When it comes down to it people (media) wants things to sell and the best way to do that is to back something that is controversial regardless of how it is that way to begin with.
 

217not237

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Nov 9, 2011
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Thank god for you, Bob. This is your best video yet! I can really relate, since, as a homosexual, hearing "OMG fag, go get butt-fucked!" as a common term for "Damn it, I died," in Call of Duty certainly doesn't sit well with me. In fact, I think I might go eye for an eye one of these days. Fucking dick, go slap your girlfriend's tits! Yeah, how does that feel, random Call of Duty player?
 

Redlin5_v1legacy

Better Red than Dead
Aug 5, 2009
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canadamus_prime said:
Just because it's common doesn't mean it's any less wrong
I cannot agree with this more. If everyone suddenly started breaking into houses and setting them on fire it wouldn't make it any less wrong.

Popularity =/= Justification for ___ism
 

ReiverCorrupter

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Jun 4, 2010
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sapphireofthesea said:
mandalorian2298 said:
Disclaimer: The first sentence or the post that follows it is not meant to be baiting. I am a professor of philosophy and this is a sincere statement of my feelings. (Snip)
Mr. Psychology professor.
See above.
sapphireofthesea said:
I am aware that this was meant for the non-science non-philosophical crowd.
Fixed.
sapphireofthesea said:
However, being a scientist myself and in the interest of further enforcing the validity of your argument, please provide some references for the points you have made, otherwise you are at risk of finding your own statements fall victim to your line of logic.
By it's very nature ethics is an a priori pursuit, so empirical data can't really serve as evidence like it does in the physical sciences. To demonstrate this one need only consider these two questions:

If we found that the majority of people in the middle ages thought homosexuality was wrong, does that make homosexuality wrong? If so, does homosexuality become permissible the moment the majority of people think it is permissible?

sapphireofthesea said:
I personally find your above, unsupported, statement flawed, without re-enforcement, and ignorant of the possibility of collective moralities playing a part in supporting a right or wrong ideal.
Come again?

sapphireofthesea said:
I am no expert but I am aware of the contention in psychology surrounding the idea of morality. I would love to give references myself but it is late and it is not my field of study so I have no grounding to make an informed search of the literature.
Psychologists don't study right and wrong, they study the human mind. I imagine that morality, qua psychological/sociological phenomenon, is a very problematic concept for psychologists. But that's more a reflection of the complexity of human behavior than moral truth.
 

NaramSuen

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Jun 8, 2010
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If only we had some kind of rule named after a geek icon that told us how to behave in situations like competitive gaming.

Great video Bob, keep calling out these troglodytes who need to be brought into the twenty-first century.
 

Awexsome

Were it so easy
Mar 25, 2009
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People can throw around dictionary definitions and technicalities of the term, "rape" all day but it won't change the reason and meaning behind why the cruder gamers actually use the term so casually.

It's all meant and rooted as a reference to homosexual slurs or sexist slurs implying their foe is gay or a woman and therefore inferior.

None of the people who willfully want to think or explain their way around it otherwise will change that.

As for the sexist discussion it pains me to see that there are sectors of the fighting community that never saw this as a big deal, or even went right to victim blaming. It really is a big issue and it's not going to change by hoping people will grow out of it.
 

Davroth

The shadow remains cast!
Apr 27, 2011
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I would suggest that we all just stop being offended by words, and turn our collective heads towards more important things, but noone wants to hear that.

I'm sick of political correctness, and this is part why. At least if everyone speaks their mind, we know who we are really dealing with. Does anyone think sexism or homophobia would disappear if it was universally shunned upon in the gaming community?

I don't. We would just not see it anymore. Let them run free and get exposed for the horrible idiots that they are. We, in turn, can then decide how to treat them.
 

MorganL4

Person
May 1, 2008
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I agree with 99.9% of what bob said and showed there, sexsim is equal to racism and homophobia. It is a simple fact that many people struggle to comprehend.

That said, the Waterbuffalo's image, to me brought up the idea of the "boys club" And in that respect I disagree, men AND women, by our very nature ( im talking straight men and women here, though gay people I guarantee do that same thing) are going to objectify the opposite sex. That is we find the other gender attractive and we need to have social outlets where we can allow that objectification take place...... AND NO IM NOT BEING SEXIST HERE Women have the same right and same desire get together and talk about David Beckham and Brad Pitt ( those are examples)and what "depraved" things they would like to do to them, THE SAME WAY us guys want to objectify Angelina Jolie or Posh Spice.

Now, what this street fighter guy did was completely inexcusable and he should be called out for it. Same with Rush Limbaugh and his calling a woman trying to get her health concerns addressed a slutty prostitute. Things like that ARE WRONG. Trying to exert ones superiority over others on moral grounds ( excluding the denouncing of murder, rape etc....) or for sexual reasons like this is, horrible. But we still do need outlets where we can safely discuss our attraction to the opposite sex in what would normally be considered impolite, But it should remain amongst a circle of friends and should never reach a public forum like what Bob was addressing here,.

Basically men need to objectify women women need to objectify men, because we need to have sexual partners for the purpose of propagating the species, and it is healthy for that to happen amongst a select group of people.
 

him over there

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Dec 17, 2011
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Awexsome said:
People can throw around dictionary definitions and technicalities of the term, "rape" all day but it won't change the reason and meaning behind why the cruder gamers actually use the term so casually.

It's all meant and rooted as a reference to homosexual slurs or sexist slurs implying their foe is gay or a woman and therefore inferior.

None of the people who willfully want to think or explain their way around it otherwise will change that.

As for the sexist discussion it pains me to see that there are sectors of the fighting community that never saw this as a big deal, or even went right to victim blaming. It really is a big issue and it's not going to change by hoping people will grow out of it.
Or y'know, it implies that they were raped, which could happen to anybody and happens because of being overpowered and degraded regardless of sex or orientation. Doesn't it seem to make a lot more sense that people say "yah got raped" because they are trying to insult and degrade you and people who've been raped have suffered traumatic events at the hands of someone who overpowered and wrecked them as a person?
 

Shjade

Chaos in Jeans
Feb 2, 2010
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him over there said:
Awexsome said:
People can throw around dictionary definitions and technicalities of the term, "rape" all day but it won't change the reason and meaning behind why the cruder gamers actually use the term so casually.

It's all meant and rooted as a reference to homosexual slurs or sexist slurs implying their foe is gay or a woman and therefore inferior.
Or y'know, it implies that they were raped, which could happen to anybody and happens because of being overpowered and degraded regardless of sex or orientation. Doesn't it seem to make a lot more sense that people say "yah got raped" because they are trying to insult and degrade you and people who've been raped have suffered traumatic events at the hands of someone who overpowered and wrecked them as a person?
Pretty much this. While I can understand the interpretation of that term being used to imply homosexuality, if you stop to think about that for two seconds it wouldn't make any sense. See, rape takes two people, so if Guy A says to Guy B, "Yeah, get raped!" as a way to indicate Guy B is gay (and therefore inferior, according to Awexsome's line of reasoning), it actually identifies Guy A as the more likely candidate for that label given he's the one initiating the sexual encounter, as it were.

It makes no sense to think of it that way is what I'm saying.

It's just a crude way to assert dominance more than linking to any specific gender/sexuality issue, like most trash talk, really.
 

MovieBob

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Dec 31, 2008
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Rape isn't really gender/sexually specific so I don't think that has anything to do with nerd sexism although it may be an offensive word over all.

So are a whhhooollee lot of words used in smack talk and trashtalking and in competitive games slandering your opponent is just there. You don't know your opponent is a woman, nor do you care, you're taunting them over defeat over what was no doubt a challenging game, and you respect them for providing you with that.

And them, being competitive players as well, also understand this mutual respect through exchange of slander. I agree that that is part of competitive gaming that will not go.

I understand your position but I reserve my right to say "gg noobs get raped" when pwning some scrubs online.

Good video rock on brother yeaa
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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Daystar Clarion said:
The amount of crap I get from guys who think I'm a girl is astounding, especially when I whoop their arses.
To be fair, you only whoop them because you're a dude, as women are terrible at fighting games.

*runs*

That said, it doesn't seem to be fighting game specific. This was videod, so it got fairly widespread attention, and it was a pretty severe case, but it's hardly exclusive.
 

miloram

I write, therefore I am
Nov 27, 2008
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SteelStallion said:
I understand your position but I reserve my right to say "gg noobs get raped" when pwning some scrubs online.
And I reserve my rights to report you to the proper authorities and/or kick you off my server. That isn't acceptable behavior, and it is sexist.
 

ReiverCorrupter

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Shjade said:
zehydra said:
Shjade said:
zehydra said:
The only thing I really disagreed with Bob on this one (and I disagree with him on a number of things in this show), is his assertion that "Fairness" is not "Censorship". Or rather, that the justice system punishing people for using hate-speech is not "censorship".
But it isn't. Being punished for something you say isn't censorship; censorship prevents things from being said/heard in the first place.
Which is exactly what the threat of punishment does.
If you can't say something for fear of being punished by law, then it's censorship.

Some will disagree with me on this, but we have laws and punishment not for justice, but to prevent crime from occurring in the first place.
Discouragement != censorship. Yeah, laws and consequences for breaking them are intended to discourage criminal activity, but when that criminal activity happens anyway, what follows? Punishment applicable to the action. Whatever happened still happened.

Likewise, if you say some horrific offensive harmful thing and get punished for it, you haven't been censored. Whatever you said is still out there, particularly if it was written rather than spoken. It isn't blacked out or removed (unless there's a legal obligation to do so - libel etc.). No censorship took place.

If you really want to keep going with the comparison to crime, I'd liken censorship to a physical barricade that literally denies you the ability to break into someone's home to steal from them, rather than the penalty for breaking in and stealing things. You flat out can't do it, regardless of what the consequences might be if you could.
This is completely ludicrous. You have an absurdly narrow definition of censorship. If the government had a law against criticizing the government and put people who criticized the government in prison it would most definitely be a form of censorship, even if they left what the person said alone. Even if you were able to prove that it wasn't censorship, that would only be an argument from the definition of a term and wouldn't accomplish anything. It would still be the case that arresting people for saying things that are offensive but not immediately harmful, whatever you want to call it (Censorship #2), would still be impermissible.

There is only one exception to the first amendment: shouting "fire" in a crowded movie theater. Aside from slander and threats, the only speech that isn't protected is speech that immediately leads to harmful results. You can even say, "let's burn down the government, they're all a bunch of crooks!", as long as you don't say "let's burn down the such-and-such building on July 27th using a homemade bomb. We'll meet at 7:00 am sharp at the corner of such-and-such."

But racial slurs and other bigoted remarks don't even come close to fitting in that category. I hate to break it to you, but something that hurts someone's feelings isn't harmful enough to warrant any sort of legal action. If you slander a person by making specific false claims about them, or threaten them, then sure, they can take legal action against you. But calling someone a name doesn't warrant jack squat.

Where would it stop? Maybe I find particular religious organizations like the Westboro Baptist Church to say incredibly hurtful things that harm me psychologically, well... guess we should go arrest them for expressing their religious beliefs! Why stop there? Clearly their entire religious organization is focused on spreading hatred and is therefore harmful to society. Better call in SWAT and Waco their asses.

You know, I normally laugh when I hear people like Glen Beck call liberals fascists. Clearly Beck is a frothing-at-the-mouth lunatic. But then I remember that there are actually liberals out there who want to crap all over the first amendment just to make sure some people's feelings don't get hurt. I'm telling you right now, even if calling people a nasty name sometimes makes them commit suicide, it still wouldn't be enough to turn over the rights given to us by the first amendment. Sure, it would be tragic, but we can't outlaw certain words anymore than we could outlaw cars because people might drink and drive.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin.