The Big Picture: Not Okay

[xPixelatedx]

From the way you are all acting I expected the video to be of a girl crying in a corner while this creepy old man rubbed her thigh, instead I see her laughing like a school girl through most of it. She should have really been a bit more forward with her discomfort, because laughter is just encouragement for socially awkward guys who don't realize they've overstepped the line. You'd think people would learn this in high school. But I don't dismiss what the guy did either, obviously. Everything everyone said about him is justified.

I also disagree with bob about the fact that some things are never ok to say. When friend's are BSing with one another they can say whatever they damn well please, as long as they are both ok with it.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

But where I get nervous is where Bob seems to be saying that there is no private place for attitudes or ideas that the general public finds offensive, only the public sphere where it comes right out of the gate to get immediately pelted with fruit for its intrinsic wrongness.

That idea disturbs me. I know we're increasingly living in a culture where privacy is a thing of the past. And certainly if you're doing something like a show or a podcast, you take the good of creating something for public consumption with the bad. Likewise, for example, if you're an employer, you better pay attention to laws about discrimination. The availability of fair workplaces where people don't feel threatened or harassed is an issue that effects us all, and I think as a society we're better for strong laws that protect us that way.

But I don't see the harm of Mac users quietly echoing to each other the superiority of users of their chosen platform, or "furries" sharing fantasies with one another, to give two examples (neither of which include me), despite the fact that expression of those ideas in the public sphere might get those who express them treated with derision and disgust.

Shorthand to be later misinterpreted: I see the problem with expressing a bad attitude in public as though the public should accept and mainstream that attitude. I'm concerned with that form of indignation, however righteous, being carried over into areas where people who may recognize their attitudes and ideas are "niche" want to share them with each other.

My thoughts exactly, a person should have the right to express unpopular opinions in a private setting.

True, and sponsors should have the right to tell them to go blow themselves when they broadcast that unpopular opinion on a national promotional stream.

Nobody was saying that sponsors shouldn't have those rights. All that was being said was that this isn't 1984, so people should have a right to express themselves freely in a private environment.

 

[ThePS1Fan]

Say what you will about Bob, but when it comes down to the controversial topics he has a habit of saying what needs to be said. Couldn't agree more with this video.

 

[illas]

snip

Rape is not intrinsically female victim issue, but it is (quite justifiably) a far more emotive issue for women. Because, to put it bluntly, women suffer it hugely more. Couple this with the fact that men generally display significantly lower fear of violence or physical attack (despite being overwhelmingly more likely to suffer it) and you are left with a predictable outcome. Although rape happens to men, men simply do not fear it. Men have no reason to believe it will happen to them, and normally they're right.

Put yourself in the shoes of a woman for a moment, someone who genuinely does fear rape. If you walk into an environment where guys casually use the word, are you going to spend your time trying to work out what they mean by that. No, you will get the fuck out. Why would you hang around people who treat your worst fear as a trivial thing?

We all say we want more women to play games, but I don't think we really want "women" to play games, we want gamer girls who will fit inoffensively into the preexisting culture and adopt our attitudes and who will never demand that we grow up or behave differently. That probably isn't going to happen. Women won't look at guys using the word "rape" and dismiss it as harmless fun, just like many gay people can't hear the word "fag" without feeling an emotional reaction. It's not about "manning up" or "getting offended over nothing", because this stuff isn't "nothing" to those people.

It will push them away, and it will ultimately lead to the gaming community continuing to be regarded as nothing more than a dumping ground for poorly socialized manchildren. That alone, I think, is reason to stop it.

Please don't misunderstand me, I agree with you.

As I initially suggested, vocabulary like "kill" and "destroy" are just as intimidating and unpleasant as "rape" and we either need to work to remove them from our communities' collective vernacular in order to make us more approachable, or wait until they are assimilated into common vocabulary and so loose their unnecessarily aggressive tone.

At the risk of being pessimistic, I think the latter is more likely.

 

[Ashoten]

This is probably the most pissed off I've ever heard movie bob sound; I don't blame him, either, as I've said the exact same thing on more than one occasion over the last few years. I remember calling some friends out on throwing the word rape around more casually than I was comfortable with and they looked at me like I grew a second head.

Seriously, nerd culture based sexism is something I would seriously like to see go away. Forever.

Had the same thing happen to me as well. Anyone else out there listening? Is this scenario as common as I think it is?

 

[Badassassin]

Man, I came to this thread for some delicious rage, but everyone here's so tolerant! ...

Guess I'll have to go get my entertainment elsewhere today

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

You misrepresented the source. He referenced Starcraft because the guy he was talking to was comparing the two communities and was noting that the Starcraft community had none of the harassment. I was initially very hard on Bakhtanians, but I've cooled off on him. What he said still stands as monumentally stupid, but I don't think that there was malicious intent behind it. I think it was a guy who dug himself into a hole and didn't know when to stop talking.

 

[DrgoFx]

Ok, first of all I laugh at sexist, racist or any sort of joke along those lines. Why? Because I find them so ridiculous that they're funny. But when given serious situations, I decide on someone no matter their race or sex. I don't even take in consideration "Would I look sexist or racist doing this?" If I do, and I'm accused of it, I just give my reasons and leave it at that. Hell, in my "debate" class we have men vs women so many times, and I'm always the neutral stand.

As for something to show how immature I am at times, I just noticed that the bridge of Bob's happy face looks like a penis.

 

[Realitycrash]

Main thing I disagree with is the implication that racial slurs and bigoted speech necessarily cause harm and thus should be immune to 1st amendment protections (if that's not what you were getting at, I apologize).

Nothing (and I repeat; NOTHING) cause harm "by necessity", even a gunshot-wound to the head can miraculously do more good than harm (in some convoluted way), but it is, as it is with everything else, the likelihood of something causing harm that we debate. And since racial slurs and bigoted speech are more likely than not in most occasions to cause harm, it is to be frowned (i.e faced with legal action) upon.

How do racial slurs cause harm? And being offended does not count.

Lol?
Being offended DOES count. It causes harm in the same way that a sexist comment at the workplace causes harm, or that bullying causes harm in schools. Do I really need to explain why using racial slurs is bad?

 

[mrblakemiller]

Two quick things, mostly because I think I'll get ragged on for these views:

I don't feel bad at all the that the female gamer who was targeted with the harrassing words CHOSE to forfeit and quit. That was completely her decision. Should the administrators have done something to insulate her from further comments, like keep that Aris guy away from her, or even disqualify him? Yes, probably. But in the end, he was not forcing shame or pain on her in any way. All we humans can give to each other (aside from physical actions, like a punch) is information. What the other person does to that is their own business. We all have people in our lives that would break our hearts by saying they hated us. We all also have people that could say that and not get any reaction at all from us. That shows that we are the final arbiters of what happens when he hear things we do not like. I got this view from the excellent book Choice Theory by psychologist William Glasser, and I recommend it to everyone. Your happiness is completely under your control.

Secondly, a big "no" to your assertion that a word like "rape" should never be used in certain contexts. If you want that, then I suggest we do the same to the word "kill." That means you've got to find another word or group of words to convey 75% or so of the main objectives of all video games. No one has the right to determine the scope of definitions of the words I use. Telling me to only use a word in certain contexts is a step towards absolute censorship. Besides, like I mentioned before, you have complete control over how you interpret and react to any words you hear.

I really want to dumb this down, because this is a point I'd really like to hit home with everyone who reads this. If you disagree with me and think the word "rape" should never appear on XBOX LIVE (for instance), look at these two sentences:

"Aw man, I just raped you!"

"Aw man, I just killed you!"

Take the criteria you would use to determine the first sentence is unacceptable and apply them to the second sentence. I submit that murdering someone is even worse than raping someone, but we usually don't seem to have a problem with the use of the word "kill" in a metaphorical sense. If we believe we can use a word for more than just its most stark and obvious meaning, then there is no reason to proscribe the use of the word "rape." Intelligent dialogue disagreeing with my judgment would be welcomed.

 

[Eri]

The only thing I disagree with is the rape thing. Saying I shouldn't use rape is sexist in itself. Men CAN BE RAPED. Both men and women can have valid feelings on the word rape, Don't try to imply that because I'm a man I should not use that word.

I really want to dumb this down, because this is a point I'd really like to hit home with everyone who reads this. If you disagree with me and think the word "rape" should never appear on XBOX LIVE (for instance), look at these two sentences:

"Aw man, I just raped you!"

"Aw man, I just killed you!"

Take the criteria you would use to determine the first sentence is unacceptable and apply them to the second sentence. I submit that murdering someone is even worse than raping someone, but we usually don't seem to have a problem with the use of the word "kill" in a metaphorical sense. If we believe we can use a word for more than just its most stark and obvious meaning, then there is no reason to proscribe the use of the word "rape." Intelligent dialogue disagreeing with my judgment would be welcomed.

And this. This exactly. Murder is worse than rape, period.

 

[thisbymaster]

The problem with going along with Bob's ideas is that it makes gaming an exclusive environment. Which is directly opposite of the idea of gaming as a whole. It is to be all inclusive, all ideas, all genders and all ideologies. Even if you don't agree with them, even if you don't like them. Their ideas are just as valid as yours. Everyone is free to disagree and argue, that is natural for human groups. Gaming isn't some country club that you can kick out the people you disagree with, you are free to reason with them but they are also free to ignore you. If you cannot handle this, then you are the one with the problem.

 

[thomaskattus]

Thank you Bob for calling out gaming culture once again. I am definitely sharing this video around so folks can hear this really awesome message.

 

[zedel]

While videos like this shouldn't have to exist, we live in a very unkind world in which they have become necessary. This was definitely my favorite of your recent episodes. Thank you for speaking out against misogyny Bob!

 

[Dascylus]

Found clip on Youtube, 13 minutes long, skipped through it... This guy is an idiot.

No one comment seemed too over the top (I didn't watch the whole thing) and I'm sure the guy thought he was being funny but the sheer non-stop nature of his persistent remarks clearly took it all too far.

My guess, he thought he was being funny and flirtatious and as he clearly has poor social skills regarding women it failed bad.

General rule for any guys out there with similar issues... When in doubt speak to her exactly as you would to any guy.
When I ask a guy about the size of his cock I am clearly joking, if I then say "But dude, seriously, how big is it?" then my friends are gonna start looking at me funny.
If I say to a girl (in the right context) how big are your boobs and... Actually, I have never said that to a woman and I actually cannot think of an appropriate time to ask that outside of clothes shopping.

In short, 21st century people. Times are a changin.

 

[Emergent System]

Could see the theme of this episode coming from a mile away when I read the title. It's not surprising that a guy who thinks that a movie where dozens of men murder each other is mysogynistic because it features a scene where a woman is treated as a sex object (because being treated as a sex object is much worse than being treated as a death object) thinks that this is NOT OKAY (but mass murder is presumably okay in his eyes, if you apply that logic consistently).

As is usually for hypersensitive types like this, verbal abuse in the form of sexism, racism, or homophobia is treated as exceptionally horrible; as if these were somehow exceptions rather than the norm for a community that abuses everyone for everything, usually much worse ones than the aforementioned three.

If he just wanted to complain about how some parts of the community - the parts he is a mmeber of, apparently - are thuroughly abuse this way then that's fine, but pretending like the abuse of these groups is something especially horrible is an inherently discriminatory approach to take in itself, even against the group it's arguing on the behalf of, heavily implying as it does that the members of those groups are in more need of protection than "normal" people.

The "it's not okay to use rape as a casual synonym for defeat" is particularily pathetic an emotional appeal. "Rape = no", "murder = yes" shows such a shocking lack of perspective and consistency that it's hard to imagine he's capable of empathizing with other people, or thinking critically, at all, rather than just regurgitating pop culture sentationalism. As is the norm for those who champion the position he's taken, he completely loses his ability to distinguish fantasy from reality the second sex, gender, and race is mentioned.

Ironic that he makes without irony an appeal to "having a serious conversation", when this entire video was nothing close to an attempt at a serious conversation, presenting a perspective so far from nuanced that it cearly made no attempt at being so.

 

[Scars Unseen]

As soon as you said the term "sexism," I immediately groaned, thinking we were in for one of those episodes(shockingly, I don't agree with everything you say, or at least the way you present your stance). And then... you followed that up with a well reasoned argument bereft of your usual vitriol that I find so distasteful. Good topic, and a good episode, Bob.

 

[Jackhorse]

I... I don't know where I stand. I'm a gamer and have never thrown discrimination like this about (perhaps because my few forays into voice chat so far have been failed attempts to warn people about spys in TF2) but I'm not sure what should be done or if indeed anything should be done about the 'bad apples'.
Is it our place to deal with the despicable within our community any more than those who read books or watch films should challenge other moviegoers or bookworms? Is our hobby a special case by way of its interactive nature? Because in a multiplayer match we are all co-operating to create the experience does it arise from this that we have a special responsibility to prune our culture? Really in all these spheres should what community to belong to matter, shouldn't we just be against the narrow minded as a society? Frankly I don't know, maybe it just needs a little more reflection.
Are we only to challenge these people or should they be excluded from gaming? You can only really be moral in your own actions, you can't make someone moral by the wrong end of a sword (or banhammer) so it only would make sense to exclude them so that no one might be offended. And if we do away with their right to speak their mind (no matter how bigoted) are we not assuming that we are incontravertibly right before hearing a word out of their mouths, any and all matters should be open to discussion and debate no matter how unpalatable.
But if we allow them to jibe and harass then many girls may choose to remain anonymous or even leave the community, easily a greater loss then the sexists.

I don't know Escapist, I just don't know. You tell me. (politely)

TLR a) Is it our place to deal with sexists
b) What should be done?
c) I have a theosaurus.

 

[scott91575]

Bob,

You should do a big picture on just free speech. I get so tired of hearing people using the words "free speech" as if it protects their speech from any ramifications. Not does it only deal with how the government can criminally prosecute you (this annoys me when people think being banned from a forum/post deleted is against their free speech), but it also cannot infringe on other rights. So many people are completely ignorant as to what free speech actually means (at least in the US 1st Amendment context).

 

[LordLundar]

The only thing I disagree with is the rape thing. Saying I shouldn't use rape is sexist in itself. Men CAN BE RAPED. Both men and women can have valid feelings on the word rape, Don't try to imply that because I'm a man I should not use that word.

I really want to dumb this down, because this is a point I'd really like to hit home with everyone who reads this. If you disagree with me and think the word "rape" should never appear on XBOX LIVE (for instance), look at these two sentences:

"Aw man, I just raped you!"

"Aw man, I just killed you!"

Take the criteria you would use to determine the first sentence is unacceptable and apply them to the second sentence. I submit that murdering someone is even worse than raping someone, but we usually don't seem to have a problem with the use of the word "kill" in a metaphorical sense. If we believe we can use a word for more than just its most stark and obvious meaning, then there is no reason to proscribe the use of the word "rape." Intelligent dialogue disagreeing with my judgment would be welcomed.

And this. This exactly. Murder is worse than rape, period.

The problem with this theory is context. When playing a game where killing is a part of the game, saying "I just killed you" is an observational statement of the situation. Certainly there are other options like killing your character and such but in a game where killing is the point, equating it to a capital crime is far fetched.

Rape on the other hand has always equated to the unwilling forceful domination of another person and historically is meant in a sexual manner. That does not equate to what's going on in most games and when in the wrong group has ugly results. I have NEVER seen anyone who actually was raped respond well to hearing that, male or female. There are better options (wafflestomped is a personal preference) and the less the term "rape " is used, he happier I'll be.