The Big Picture: Off Target - Don't Censor Me Part 2

[ryukage_sama]

I have an idea for GTAVI: Use the Legend of Zelda, cucco method.

Basically, the player could kill a sex worker after paying her and get away, maybe once or twice. Then, on the 3rd offence, dozens of heavily armed sex workers attack from every direction hunting down the player character. They never stop attacking until the player is dead. From then on, every sex worker treats the player with suspicious hostility, refusing to "do business", even pulling out the biggest most powerful gun the game has to offer with which to kill the player and steal every dollar the player is carrying.

Get to work Rockstar.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

Neat. Yet another thread to discuss this one non-issue. Well, since everyone else is here, might as well sound off as well.
I've had somewhat mixed feelings on MovieBob's content overall, and especially his conduct in a certain conflict, the name of which i will not utter here. And while i was gearing up for the suspected smug fest that usually accompanies anything to do with social justice, i feel he really hit the nail on the head here.

 

[Catrixa]

I feel like this is kinda like the whole "Mass Effect has a sex scene!!!" outrage. Fox News went nuts that there was a super raunchy sex scene in an infant's plaything, drummed up a ton of controversy, then found out they were so far off the deep end that they had to apologize. Target's big issue here is that they actually did advertize GTA 5 as a baby toy for children under 10, but the box still advertises it as being for 18+ (so not appropriate in the toy aisle or toy sections of advertisements). Target removing it isn't actual governmental censorship (duh? Yeah, this is a dumb argument), but shouldn't people who disagree have a chance to disagree? Like, I don't think it's worth it to freak out about every blog post saying "Game X is sexist, don't sell it!!", but this was a petition that did a thing. Isn't that slightly different? Doesn't it at least warrant some response?

If being outraged about sexism in games is a thing, being outraged about games being removed (possibly unfairly) should be a thing. I don't see why we need all of this "Your opinion is different, therefore it is wrong and you should not express it" nonsense. This wasn't simply a "Tumblr feminists said ban a thing! Yell at them for saying that!" situation, this was a thing being removed from a place. Talking about the validity of it being removed should be just as fine as talking about removing it.

 

[Muspelheim]

Also, as the resident Biodrone here, where was this outrage when Dragon Age: Inquistion was banned in India and no one could play that game?

Oh, but them gays got enough already, they're so entitled with their whining and their demands they keep shoving down my throat! I mean, I have nothing against them, I just don't want to be reminded they exist in my games.

(Agreed. I think the lack of an outrage is rather... Indiciative.)

EDIT: There is obviously more to it than that, of course. Loads of different people, loads of different reasons. But I'll bet that is part of the problem.

 

[Kahani]

As I apparently keep having to point out, Kmart didn't "join in" with anything, it's exactly the same company.

they should do more to acknowledge how abusive a sex worker's life is, (like with pimps who abuse them to keep them in line, 'customers' who abuse them just to get their rocks off, and so on), rather than just treat them with a "Hey guys! Just pay these happy girls for instant sex!" attitude that was laughably cheesy in the 3D-era, but increasingly out of touch and creepy in the HD-era.

Absolutely. For example, they could show that people who pay for sex might be psychopaths who murder them afterwards to get their money back. And maybe they could have missions where you have to protect prostitutes from their absusive pimps. In other words, they could keep doing exactly what they already fucking do.

Here's where I come from. Don't most of the 'hardcore' crowd that wants GTA usually pirate it through torrents, CD cracks or emulators anyway? If so, why are people fighting this so much when you can just download the game without paying for it.

No, obviously not. GTA5 didn't become the fastest selling entertainment product ever by having every single person who wants to play it pirate it instead of buying it. While piracy gets whined about a lot by publishers, and is certainly a problem, the vast majority of people are actually not criminals. Even the ones who play GTA.

 

[ryukage_sama]

I quit the video when Bob, on a site targeting gamers, tried to downplay the first major push at restricting the sales of videogames that have been made in years. Yes, you could point to things more important, but people who don't play videogames taking action that affect game players due to ignorant views on what video games are about is a major issue in gaming as a whole that has been going back at least as far as the 80s.

I take it that you are wholly ignorant of the government institution in Australia which actively censors and bans some games from ever being sold in that country? Bob even mentions this Australian Classification Board in the video as an example of what you as a gamer should be fighting against instead the (poor) business decision of a single store chain.

GTAV is old news. It is also a prime example of what many people find objectionable about video games. Even disregarding the optional, non-integral treatment of NPCs in the game, the three player characters do some terrible things over the course of the campaign. The less the general public knows about the scripted events of GTAV the better. It's a more sound defensive strategy for games like GTAV to call attention to OTHER, less objectionable games.

 

[Adaephon]

Okay so yeah, there are valid reasons to support Target in all of this (companies can do what they want, there are other places to go to that aren't as absolutely god-awful as Target, parents can't decide what their kids play so the market has to help them, blah blah etc etc) but the whole 'Because Capitalism' is just a bad argument.

I mean there have been what? like ten billion different threads about Australians bitching about how they have to pay more for foreign software (steam, adobe etc.) well that's just capitalism. Supply and Demand says that you should sell at the price people are willing to pay right? So does that mean people shouldn't complain 'Because Capitalism?'

When people complain about a lack of diversity, isn't that because companies are just targeting the main White/Japanese markets for gaming because they think (rightfully or not) that that will help maximize profits 'Because Capitalism?'

Wasn't the Comics Code Authority just the comic industry reacting to public demand and changing their model as such (no violence, no supernatural elements, no sexuality, no batman and robin being 'gay'. no wonder woman being 'a dominatrix,' etc.?)

If I got a few thousand fellow Catholics to, I don't know, demand that the Hindu-Cultural Private School in Vancouver (a for-profit private entity and therefore part of the free market) must include bible studies classes and English and Latin language courses, should they have to cave in just 'Because Capitalism?'

If another group wanted to ban GTA because it encouraged violence against minorities or something, would that be equally valid? what if it was really dumb, like a petition to ban half-life 2 because it encouraged violence against the police? If, say, Nintendo (as a private corporate entity) announced that they would release press statements asking their fans to boycott the Escapist until Yahtzee was fired, and he Escapist (as another private entity) did so to protect their profits or whatever, is that also fair?

Again, be for or against the Target ban all you want, there are fair points to be made on either side, but the whole 'the ban is inherently righteous because capitalism says so' is just full of holes. And if you do proclaim yourself the holy defender of the free market, think about what you are really saying before you jump to defend or attack anyone.

 

[Sofox]

I quit the video when Bob, on a site targeting gamers, tried to downplay the first major push at restricting the sales of videogames that have been made in years. Yes, you could point to things more important, but people who don't play videogames taking action that affect game players due to ignorant views on what video games are about is a major issue in gaming as a whole that has been going back at least as far as the 80s.

I take it that you are wholly ignorant of the government institution in Australia which actively censors and bans some games from ever being sold in that country? Bob even mentions this Australian Classification Board in the video as an example of what you as a gamer should be fighting against instead the (poor) business decision of a single store chain.

GTAV is old news. It is also a prime example of what many people find objectionable about video games. Even disregarding the optional, non-integral treatment of NPCs in the game, the three player characters do some terrible things over the course of the campaign. The less the general public knows about the scripted events of GTAV the better. It's a more sound defensive strategy for games like GTAV to call attention to OTHER, less objectionable games.

I said "push" at restricting games, the Australian Governments attitude towards restricting games has become less and less restrictive over the years, finally leading to the introduction at 18+ ratings.

GTAV isn't old news as it was just re-released (I'm sorry to call you on a detail, but it stung when you called me "ignorant"). That said, I do disagree with your argument. Most of the people who object to GTAV haven't even played it, it was a YouTube video that spurred their objection to that game (thank you for showing you knew it was an player created moment). If we continue to allow "banning based on reputation" then we've allowed an utterly terrible system to take place. Remember when Mass Effect got that "SeXBox" controversy a while back? How would you have felt if stores stopped pulling editions of the game purely based on what they saw on Fox News?

 

[anonymity88]

I played through GTA 5 and cannot actually remember seeing a hooker (unless there's one in a mission I've forgotten about). I honestly thought they'd taken them out of the game.

My two cents.

 

[WhiteNachos]

Buying sex from prostitutes gives you health back, at the cost of your money.

Wait, it actually still does that? I haven't solicited a hooker in the game except for the 100% (which I still haven;'t got because "bored now" and I started playing online), so I didn't notice if it did, but I thought they pulled that out of the games in the PS2 era.

Nope. That noble tradition is still there.

I'll have to try this. But that also means that another thing people are claiming is a "lie" in the original petition isn't.

It's lying by saying the game encourages this kind of thing and by saying killing prostitutes get your health back.

Look, I don't exactly agree with petitioners (or rather, I would disagree if that thing affected me in any way), but you can't seriously be saying that you don't see the logic here?

I mean, you get a service, a service useful for the player. And the act of meretricide allows you to get that same service for free. You can't seriously argue that there's no incentive here.

By that logic I can argue the game encourages the murder of taxi drivers.

But you're forgetting that in both cases if you murder them afterwards it can add stars to your wanted level.

Taxi driver will not drive too far off the road. He will not drive your character to the pier, or inside of an abandoned warehouse, or city park at night. Which means that murdering a cabbie is more likely to draw attention. Also, taxi driver will drive away almost immediately.

Hooker, on the other hand, is riding in your car. She won't leave, no matter where you drive; in fact, they insist that you stop the car in an abandoned area, otherwise they refuse to do anything. After your business with them is done, they slowly strut away from your car, allowing to catch up with them easily or line up a shot (I'm sorry if that sounds creepy).

All irrelevant. You can get busted by the police for murdering either. The incentives and possible punishments are the same.

As an aside if you don't pick a good spot with the hooker you'll get a wanted star before the transaction is finished. It's pretty understandable for a hooker to not want to pick a spot with a lot of people. And of course they strut away, they don't have a car.

 

[tzimize]

Is this a real problem? No. Is it causing real problems? Maybe.

This stupid (and it is stupid) petition caused a bunch of middle aged housewives in my country to get their panties in a twist as well. "Kvinnefronten" (Womens Front) a feminist group in my country also tries to get GTA V banned from stores, on account of its treatment of women. In their letter to the stores they even just plain made up crap that GTA V did.

I havent played all through GTA V, but I've played a good part. And if one thing is certain, its that everyone is up for grabs. Its not a game that treats WOMEN wrong, its a game that treats (or gives one the chance to) treat EVERYONE wrong. It pisses me off to no end when moronic people with absolutely no understanding for what they are protesting make waves in society. They should be called out for the idiots they are and exposed. A friend of mine (man) commented on their facebook page and said that they should be ashamed of themselves, making themselves look so bloody stupid when they are representing women that have actually done worthwhile things to further equality in our society.

The problem is that there are tons of idiots in the world. A lot of those idiots will read what Kvinnefronten has to say and believe it, possibly leading to the regular old witch hunts against gaming. Progress is a fucking uphill battle, and while it on one hand it goddamn stupid to make a fuss about something as trivial as GTA V getting bad press, educating idiots is NEVER a bad thing. It is often a waste, but it is never a bad thing.

 

[hermes]

I am going to post this before is lost in the sea of posts about double standards, sexism and gamergate.

Bob, if you want to take a stand against something, don't do it from the perspective of a language elitist.

For once, because you are wrong... censorship does not have to be government enforced to be censorship. Organizations can engage in censorship, enterprises can engage in censorship, even individuals can engage in censorship. Heck, the Hays Code was downright Hollywood censorship. You may not like this example, and you may not like that some historical cases can be downplayed by people calling "censorship!" every time they feel affected by it, but it doesn't mean only big world, ground shaking, violence enforced life stories about censorship are "worthy" of the title.

And also, because if "censorship as enforced by companies" is a valid use of the word by 99% of the population, then it is a valid use of the word for the entire English language. Languages are living, moving social concepts, the same as music or pop culture, and if the Merriam-Webster dictionary changed the meaning of the word "literally" to account of the massive misuse it suffered in common talk, then it can, will, and has changed the meaning of "censorship" to account for its use in common talk, literally...

 

[Ih8makingUsernames]

A few points Bob either missed or was flat out wrong about-

1. The game, whatever his anti-current gaming age mindset may be, is still entirely relevant. With a recent re-release for the newer system, around the holiday time, it's still kind of a big deal. It may not be THE BIGGEST retailer in the BIGGEST market, but it is a big retailer in a big market pulling a popular, A list name in the biggest shopping time of the year.

2. This is censorship. Nothing annoys me more then people who try to play koi with words. It's akin to those people who say they aren't homophobic because they aren't 'afraid of gay people.' Censorship isn't something just the government is capable of. Censorship is the suppression of freedom of expression. Getting a product pulled because you don't agree with it's message (or part of its message), whatever that message may be, is censorship.

Censorship does not just simply entail that the government is doing it, or that the message forced to be changed. The message being told is that 'so long as it includes X, it's not welcome here.' That is a suppression of speech, and a selective one. You're right that a private company is free to stock whatever it wants whenever it wants - but there's a world of difference between 'We're no longer stocking the game because it's no longer selling well' and 'we're pulling the game because people petitioned us saying that it contains taboo content.'

3. The idea that people aren't fighting real censorship is hogwash. Australians have tried for years to get an R18 rating, or basically a 'we refused classification, so only adults can buy it.' And people are still fighting that that system is being abused.

What people are upset over is how nonsensical this movement is, and how unfairly the application of it is. GTA is subjected to this scrutiny simply because it's a video game and a few people object to it. This scrutiny only applies to video games - Target has not pulled offensive books that have helpless women being sexually assaulted, or movies.

4. It's a fair bit ironic that you jab fun at the people upset over this when you're guilty of much of the same. Not only does this show have deep roots of doing that kind of stuff, as does your Twitter account, which is filled with posts relating to activism - both important ones and petty ones.

People are allowed to get upset about whatever they want. At the end of the day, most of the crap people get upset about is meaningful.

 

[Something Amyss]

It didn't get coverage on the Escapist, it got someone making a thread about it over on the Gaming Discussion board (I had to Google to figure out what thread you were talking about). That's a fair bit less visible than actually having articles or videos published about it.

Which is how it started for this other incident, too, weirdly enough. It got covered by the Escapist once people were losing their shit over it. Also, you don't know how to search the Escapist?

I did watch it, but Bob hasn't fully internalised the concept that everyone is dehumanised, so complaining about one specific group is moot, as it is using it to see intent where there isn't any.

GTA says that humans suck in general, not a particular aspect of humanity.

Or, alternatively, you're just ignoring what he's saying.

I played through GTA 5 and cannot actually remember seeing a hooker (unless there's one in a mission I've forgotten about). I honestly thought they'd taken them out of the game.

My two cents.

They're all over the place and the game reminds you quite often that you can pick them up. Additionally, receiving prostitute service counts towards 100% completion.

 

[Darth_Payn]

So, I don't get what Bob was trying to convey at the end about the prostitutes. Does he want them to be invincible like children in Skyrim? Does he not want them to simply not be in the games like children in GTA? Because by simple virtue of being NPC's in a GTA game they're fair game to be gunned down, ran over, stabbed, and blown the fuck up just like everyone else.

Sounds to me like Bob was pointing out how the more "realistic" GTA's of late can't decide to be as cartoonishly violent and satirical as their predecessors or raise a valid point about the ills of the world. There's shocking to bring attention to something, and shocking because you're a troll who's running out of ideas ([cough] FAMILY GUY [cough]).

I just wanna say...

Whenever I solicited a prostitute to give me a blowjob in GTA5, I let her walk away with her hard earned money without any fuss.

That's all. I have nothing of value to contribute to this utterly valueless debate. I just saw an entertaining opportunity to say those words and still somehow emerge as looking sane and level-headed in my surroundings.

Good on ya, mate. Prostitutes have a hard enough time, and it adds something to your character's personality by showing what lines he won't cross (except for Trevor the Redneck psycho, 'cause that guy's an animal).

Bob, I have to applaud you for having the guts for pointing out how everyone involved in this non-debacle comes out as stupid, especially Rockstar for continuing to feed the controversy just to gain attention. Then again, GTA has a very "enthusiastic" audience, if you recall the time Greg Tito gave it 3 1/2 stars in his review, and he was verbally crucified for it (as Yahtzee so eloquently illustrated).

 

[Halla Burrica]

Well, I think the issue is less "oh, you shouldn't kill them", and more "hey, instead of using hookers as an excuse to put 'sex' in the game, perhaps we should point out the ways that being a prostitute is NOT good for the prostitute at all? Y'know, with abusive pimps, even more abusive 'customers', and getting treated like crap by everybody in society for something they were likely forced into, that sort of thing?" I don't think that sex workers should be "immune" when you suddenly whip out an assault rifle and go on a GTA-style Rampage, but it's probably best not to trivialize their portrayals to "oh these girls are just SO happy to take your money and give you sex", and just ignore all the abuse they falsely receive from virtually every part of society, especially when Rockstar is trying to give the characters of the "GTA HD-era" more meaningful depth and story than the "personified Ids" of the "GTA 3D-era".

You are aware that far from everyone who become prostitutes are forced into that business? There are certainly a great deal of them that have been given little choice in the matter, but it's not the whole picture. There are a good amount of people who do it do it out of their own free will, for various reasons. I've seen people who believe it to be an ok job, there was for example this woman who sold sex for money, who stated in an interview that she once met this guy who was dying from an incurable disease and by giving him that service for money she felt she was helping him live out the last of his days with some happiness. Others just like having sex and are good at it, they don't think too much about offering it as a service to strangers. It isn't really much different than most other types of jobs when you get down to it, the customer/employer requests a service and the worker gives it in exchange for material values. Only difference is that more adultery and divorce is involved there than many others.

Also, isn't it kind of a prostitutes job to look as if they're enjoying what they do? If they start crying or something they probably get less customers, unless of course the customers are into that sort of thing (like me).

 

[pretzil]

I just want to point out to all the people getting American about this, but prostitution is legal in Australia.
It is regulated and taxed, the people who started this petition... are sex workers.

Stigma aside, there is no legal reason they need to feel like they can't report assaults in Australia.


The big picture here, is that it is actually has parallels to the UBER ride sharing argument, prostitutes are losing profits because a cleaner, cheaper alternative is taking away their customers...

 

[Sigmund Av Volsung]

Or, alternatively, you're just ignoring what he's saying.

You got me there, I'm not too proud to admit that I think Bob barely has anything meaningful to say when it comes to games.

I still think that the way he goes about GTA is a bit superficial(there are no direct incentives to murder prostitutes, at least not say, over other humans), though it doesn't seem like I will get much of a discussion out of this.

Fair enough, I will withdraw from further commenting, as I doubt that either of us find our discussion constructive. I apologise, and I withdraw myself.

 

[ryukage_sama]

I quit the video when Bob, on a site targeting gamers, tried to downplay the first major push at restricting the sales of videogames that have been made in years.

I take it that you are wholly ignorant of the government institution in Australia which actively censors and bans some games from ever being sold in that country? Bob even mentions this Australian Classification Board in the video as an example of what you as a gamer should be fighting against instead the (poor) business decision of a single store chain.

GTAV is old news. It is also a prime example of what many people find objectionable about video games. Even disregarding the optional, non-integral treatment of NPCs in the game, the three player characters do some terrible things over the course of the campaign. The less the general public knows about the scripted events of GTAV the better. It's a more sound defensive strategy for games like GTAV to call attention to OTHER, less objectionable games.

I said "push" at restricting games, the Australian Governments attitude towards restricting games has become less and less restrictive over the years, finally leading to the introduction at 18+ ratings.

GTAV isn't old news as it was just re-released (I'm sorry to call you on a detail, but it stung when you called me "ignorant"). That said, I do disagree with your argument. Most of the people who object to GTAV haven't even played it, it was a YouTube video that spurred their objection to that game (thank you for showing you knew it was an player created moment). If we continue to allow "banning based on reputation" then we've allowed an utterly terrible system to take place. Remember when Mass Effect got that "SeXBox" controversy a while back? How would you have felt if stores stopped pulling editions of the game purely based on what they saw on Fox News?

We'll agree to disagree as to whether a re-release makes something new again.

This is not a "ban". No one is "banning" the sale of GTAV in Australia. Also, the Australian government has been banning games for years, and censoring many others. Here's a listing of banned games: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games_in_Australia#Currently_banned.2Fcensored_video_games
Some of the games listed have since seen censored releases.

Last year, they banned a game. Never mind a public push for one store to not sell it. Last year. How, then, can this be called "the first major push at restricting the sales of videogames that have been made in years". The government continues to restrict the same of games even now by requiring the developers to make changes before the game can be sold in stores. That doesn't even include the changes developers make in advance of their submission in hopes that the game will be approved sooner rather than later.

The video these petitioners saw wasn't fabricated. It was real game footage. Sure, it was a player going out of their way to do these things, but it is built into the game to be able to do it. The developers intended it to be there. The coverage of Mass Effect was largely done by commentators without even watching game (or cut-scene) footage. They were factually wrong in their evaluation, and I didn't like it. But showing people the actual content in the context of romance over hours of narrative content, could and did sway some critics away from their objection to the game. In that case, fighting the knee-jerk reaction was positive. GTAV has worse content than killing individual sex workers. It won't help get GTAV back in those retailers, who weren't doing this based on coverage. They did it based on the explicit request of thousands of their retailers. That's just market pressure. I don't have any modern rock/alt music stations in my area because broadcasters determined there wasn't the market for it. It's completely unavailable in my local airwaves, but that's not a ban. They're just not selling it.

And the game wasn't banned. We can't repeat that enough. Those who disagree can just buy all of their games somewhere else, anywhere else. The pressure from gamers needs to be applied on the governmental agencies, not retailers. If anything, keeping games like GTAV out of public consciousness would only improve public perception of games.

 

[K12]

Was completely expecting this episode and also completely expected to agree with virtually everything you said.

The petition was might have been worth doing a year ago but now only serves to remind me that I haven't gotten round to buying GTA5 yet.

Target wasn't forced to do it the world feminazi conspiracy, they just chose it as a family friendly PR move that won't really cost them anything. The worst it could do is make it awkward for them to in future stock GTA6 at launch (which they definitely will) but everyone will have forgotten about it by then.

The people complaining of censorship are wrong (about it being censorship) and coming across as childish. If even a tangential link to feminism pushes your berserk button this badly then I think you need to learn to relax.

One store in one country stops stocking a year old game after being given a petition, who cares!