- Dec 19, 2009
Still haven't seen "The best Marvel movie" yet...
I must fix this.
I must fix this.
Usually when the MIC is referenced, it's referring to someone creating the products for sale to a government. As you say, this is in every IM movie, as we get Obidiah Stane, Justin Hammer and Aldrich Killian, all of whom directly work for/own companies that make weapons. Hydra/Shield doesn't make those weapons, and while you could make an argument that the customers of weapons contracts count as part of the MIC, then we are left labeling any villain who works for the government as a MIC villain. I think Hydra is a big enough departure from the Iron Man trio to not count as MIC villains. MIght be splitting hairs though.Gunnyboy said:Cap's entire arc is about SHIELD's covert ops, and their new weapons program designed to kill threats before they happen. The HYDRA aspect undercuts that point, but he was intent on stopping it before he even knew SHIELD wasnt what it was.Gorrath said:That issue certainly presents itself in the IM series and in the Hulk, but the villains in Winter Soldier were Hydra, not the amorphous "military industrial complex". None of the villains presented in Winter Soldier worked in the military industrial field. I've made the exact same criticism you are but I don't think it fits with Winter Soldier.Gunnyboy said:Winter Soldier - white military industrial complex villain
While I think their conversation was intended to be a direct reference to the Hulk movie, I do follow your reasoning. Certainly that particular plot has not made much sense in the greater continuity (I personally feel like it was a bad movie, the only bad movie of the continuity). But with Stark showing up for the post credits scene to talk about The Avengers and the Hulk's campus rampage showing up on TV in IM2, (IM2 runs concurrently with the Hulk movie). There's also a Marvel one-shot where it was revealed that Coulston actually sent Stark to Ross in an attempt to get The Abomination for The Avengers.Yojoo said:I actually remembered that conversation between Black Widow and Banner. I don't really consider it a reference to the Hulk movie so much as simply a reference to Hulk as a character. I mean, Hulk necessarily has destroyed stuff in his background, nobody is pretending that Avengers was Banner's first adventure.Gorrath said:Hate to be "that guy" but the events of the Hulk movie are mentioned in The Avengers when Black Widow is trying to recruit Bruce to the team. Specifically, they talk about the destruction of Manhattan. Still, I'd rather forget that awful film too and just roll with Mark "Best Hulk Evar" Ruffalo. As for IM3 hate, check my post above this reply. I honestly don't think it was the comedy that made it so mediocre, it was the rehash of the same ideas we got in IM1-2.Yojoo said:I don't really consider The Incredible Hulk to be part of the MCU any more. Nothing from that movie has been acknowledged in any way I'm aware of by any of the other films. And Tony Stark's cameo in the post-credits scene is clearly anachronistic, since Stark wasn't part of the Avenger program at all until the Avengers film. If Mark Ruffalo's Bruce Banner calls up Liv Tyler for a chat in an upcoming film, I will be extremely surprised.
The Incredible Hulk ends with Tim Roth as the Abomination getting thrown in some hole, likely one controlled by SHIELD. Obviously the Tesseract was a more important item for Fury to devote study time to, but surely a monster that could match the Hulk punch-for-punch was worth examining? After all, Tim Roth's character started his path to becoming the Abomination by taking serum that was originally intended to replicate the Captain America juice. If such studies were being conducted, why were they abandoned? It makes no sense within the continuity, which is part of the reason why I no longer consider it as such.
All Hail The King is a complete joke,and pure fan bait after the backlash online. It's rubbish, and no amount of retcon will change that.Extragorey said:People are aware of the existence of Marvel's One-Shots, right? Those short clips of tie-in scenes released on the Blurays of the respective movies. Most of them are pretty insignificant, plot-wise, but the one-shot accompanying Iron Man 3 ("All Hail the King") actually reveals the existence of the real Mandarin in the MCU.
Anyway, I've liked all the MCU movies so far, but mostly just as action flicks. Very good action flicks, but still just action flicks. The only two the really stood out for me were Iron Man 1 (Tony Stark is undeniably the biggest personality on the Avengers) and The Avengers for its outside-the-box witty dialogue and screenplay.
So now Asians can't be villains? How isn't THAT racist? This is just corporate nonsense to appease a market. It's safe filmmaking, something the original Iron Man really wasnt'.daibakuha said:You're right, because relegating asian roles to bad guys is such a good thing. He's a "yellow menace" villain. The might as well have a villain called Captain Communism and have him speak with a Russian accent while espousing the views of his communist homeland.Gunnyboy said:snip
These films sell to an international audience and sometimes when you adapt the source material you have to change it to not fucking piss off all the people in a country you want to see the film.
Captcha: Can't have nice things. Sounds fitting.
Gorrath said:Usually when the MIC is referenced, it's referring to someone creating the products for sale to a government. As you say, this is in every IM movie, as we get Obidiah Stane, Justin Hammer and Aldrich Killian, all of whom directly work for/own companies that make weapons. Hydra/Shield doesn't make those weapons, and while you could make an argument that the customers of weapons contracts count as part of the MIC, then we are left labeling any villain who works for the government as a MIC villain. I think Hydra is a big enough departure from the Iron Man trio to not count as MIC villains. MIght be splitting hairs though.
I agree completely. The Winter Soldier had plenty enough screen time to come off as a credible menace, but there was no need to bang on about him. His character arc followed the path it needed to, especially with his actions at the end. He may not have played the biggest role he could have in the film, but that made way for the interesting spy-plot and the relevant themes regarding Old School Cap vs the modern world. A three hour punch-up between Steve and Bucky would have grown tired quickly.vid87 said:I feel like being immersed in the shop-talk and rumor mill about these movies, especially about how many movies so-and-so has left in their contract, is starting to actually affect my enjoyment of them - Cap 2 offered some nice cameos and curveballs, but most of them were hinted at or suggested at some point and I just couldn't feel as surprised as I'd like to be, which sucks because rumor mongering is fun. I think that's why I wasn't able to realize/admit right away that Cap 2, on a thematic and meaningful level, has a lot more going for it than Avengers.
As for Winter Soldier himself, I think it's actually a smart move not to dwell on him too long - 90% of audiences already knew who he was and dragging that out would've been cheap and made us miss the bigger game-changing picture (even if, again, it wasn't that surprising).
What makes you think SHIELD actually manufactured those Helicarriers? We do see them in dry-dock beneath SHIELD headquarters, but it makes no sense at all for SHIELD to have licensed tech from Stark and then built the systems themselves. But let's say for a second SHIELD was responsible for the actual manufacture of the carriers. In that scenario, they wouldn't be part of the military industrial complex at all, as the MIC is defined by being a joint venture between government, military and private companies. Without the corrupt interplay between government and private contractors, I hardly see how this is an allusion to the MIC. The IM villains were private citizens trying to control weapons manufacturing and war for profit, which is the essence of MIC. The winter soldier villains were all government people engaged in espionage and a power coup for world domination. I just don't see the thematic connection to "war for profit". Hell, one of Hydra's stated goals is to end all war.Gunnyboy said:SHIELD was the one building those weapons though. They got the tech from Stark, to fix their Helicarriers. It's their weapons, and they were trying to sell the council on making them active.