The Big Picture: Relics

[BlackWidower]

I love what Penn Jillette said:

"Circumstances of birth are nothing more than random and should never be a source of pride or shame."

"Wanna really get rid of this bullshit racism? Stop seeing yourself as white, or black, or even American! Be yourself and fuck the tribe!"

 

[Johnson McGee]

I have a question for Bob: why do people get duped into watching obviously awful movies time and time again? (cough, Jack and Jill, cough).

 

[Pariahwulfen]

That was cool.

Ok question time.
Now that BioWare are done with Shepherd's story and are on their way to finishing up Dragon Age, what do you think they will try next?

I kind of hope they try a RPG world that has magic (and I mean magic magic), but is placed in a future world. Not as far in the future as Mass effect maybe, but at least far enough that they have electricity and indoor plumbing.

Do you think they will be trying anything like that? Have you (or anyone else really) heard of a game like that?

Thanks for the brain food Bob!

Why yes, I have heard of Shadowrun [http://www.shadowrun4.com/], I would like to see a videogame adaptation of it that does it justice though.

 

[Nurb]

Considering the vast majority of us younger generations honestly don't have the thought "How could black people build this fantastic stuff?" running through our heads when the "lost city trope" is brought up, doesn't that mean we HAVE moved past it?

The fact he had to tell us how it came about shows that racism no longer affects that spesific part of the culture because the original meaning is gone and replaced by the appeal of wild, exotic locations and lost cultures.

 

[MovieBob]

I suppose the point of the episode was pretty good overall, but the example was terrible.

You said " Lost City- what do you think of?"

You said my answer was: "Africa- Because of Indiana Jones, Tomb Raider, and Tarzan among others, all take place in either Africa, or places like Africa, and that's racist because way back in the day people were surprised and mystified to find ruins of cities in Africa" Paraphrased of course.

The reality is, I immediately thought of South America, Asia, and the Middle East. In fact, Africa is pretty far down on the list. The argument would then be, "Why didn't I think of Africa, isn't that racist?" And the whole damn thing just gets worse after that.

But, before jumping into that, I'd like to address a couple of things first. For the most part Indiana Jones doesn't take place in Africa, I realize that the Lost Ark was found in Egypt, but aside from that he doesn't spend much time there. Tomb Raider is the same, there is a map on wikipedia that shows places where Lara Croft has been in the games, most of them outside of Africa. You used Tarzan as an example of the Africa lost city concept, congrats that's valid. . . and very old. Counterpoint: The Jungle Book- Lost City, not in Africa, very old.

I'm afraid you've misread the "narrative" of my argument, though to be fair that's concievably just as much my fault.

Obviously, there are more "lost city"-type ruins to be found in South America and Asia, and clearly that's why modern variations on the theme like Indiana Jones or Tomb Raider generally place their locales there - because they have the benefit of modern knowledge to know that it makes more sense that way. HOWEVER, the reason "Lost City"/"Lost Civilization" stuff pops up in Indy and Tomb Raider is because those are both modernizations inspired by classical Adventure Fiction, which in turn were inspired by King Solomon's Mines, which took place in Africa and was DIRECTLY inspired by the then-recent discoveries of real-life African ruins.

 

[Monkeyman O'Brien]

Yes I suppose it could have been a "black people could not have built this stuff" issue. Or maybe, just maybe, it was a much more common sense "People generally advance. So people today living in mud huts are not likely to have been from the same people who built castles. Otherwise why would they have stopped building castles and started living in mud huts?" mindset...

Also this really had fuck all to do with racism... Tell me how this is at all relevant to say the black slavery issue people still harp on and on and on about. From people who were never slaves towards people who have never owned slaves.

Sorry, I am gonna go right on ahead and keep stating that the racism issue is bullshit, just something people like to whine about to make themselves feel like others owe them something. Because that, that selfishness, that self victimisation, is a very real and trait that has nothing to do with race or sex but purely on people being selfish cunts.

Oh and the whole "monkey is always a slander against black people" thing can go fuck right off. Look at my name, look at the last name... Yeah. Go die in a fire ya whiney jackanapes.

 

[Piecewise]

Same thing happened with native Americans. The large structures that explorers found were explained away as the acts of a lost civilization known commonly as "The mound builders" in order to justify the explorer's feelings that the native americans were far to primitive to have ever made anything permanent.

 

[Evil Alpaca]

Question: If you put loads of sugar on a bagel, does that make it a donut?

It makes it a very stale donut.

Back to the topic...

Wouldn't it also be true that the narrative for a lost city requires an area that a city could be lost in. I assume by the 1800s, Europeans probably had a good idea of what Europe looked like. Couldn't you also explain the setting in part due to general ignorance.

I mean, some early science fiction often had Mars or Venus as quasi-habitable worlds because it was assumed that they would be the closest to earth. Nowadays, science fiction writers set their sights on planets light years away because we have a more thorough understanding of our own solar system.

 

[BehattedWanderer]

So, the Lost City trope doesn't encompass finding lost Middle Eastern, South American, European, Eastern Asian, Southern Asian, or (admittedly rarer) North American cities, city-states, temples, statues, and other remnants of a long dead empire?

So the Arabian stories about finding ruins in the sands of the city of glass destroyed by the sun in a fitful rage when his lover slept with someone in the city didn't help found the concept?

The Chinese stories of journeying across the lands and finding overgrown idols of unknown gods don't help?

The islander stories of searching for a continent the gods hid across the seas, it's beautiful lands untainted yet by man, these don't matter?

Stories from all corners of the globe of people looking for a city sunk by the gods, or of passageways in tombs, or the exploration of bizarre monuments for treasure, knowledge, or more treasure don't hold up? Just the ones about white dudes in Africa?

It doesn't stem from a racist idea, it stems from a human idea--we in the present are impossibly complex, while everyone in the past was primitive. Through study and diligence (something most people avoid like it has cooties), we can correct this misunderstanding in ourselves. Yes, age of exploration white dudes charting out Africa were racist, but when they looked at either nomadic or agrarian tribal societies versus the immense complexity of the eroding civilization, they saw no comparable way that the two groups could have been anything alike, ergo someone else built it. If you found intricate iron lacework and precision-crafted alloys near a group of people that hadn't the foggiest clue of metallurgy, you would conclude that someone else built it. It's really not that hard of a leap. Applying racist overtones onto it does nothing good.

 

[awesomepanda]

i'd like to find out a little about this john carter of mars. the movie trailer was the first i heard of it.

 

[theSteamSupported]

Bob, here's my question: You've been called a hypocrite a lot of times. What do you think about these accusations? Will you ever address them? Like say, the gimmickry in 'The Artist' versus 'Sucker Punch'?

 

[mykalwane]

Response to video:
I liked it, and made me think. I think more Makes you think, kind of episodes would work well. Since they appear to be easy on your part. Don't know if they are or not. Probably aren't but I think you could do it on anything you like and just dive into for a bit.

Questions:
1.Do you think webcomics are replacing comics?

I ask this because I think all you need to do is give a short answers. I wonder since I buy more individual comics from web comic artist then anything else. I have bought more merchandise and comics from webcomics like The Devils' Panties [http://thedevilspanties.com/], Something Postitive [http://www.somethingpositive.net/index.html], and Eerie Cuties [http://www.eeriecuties.com/] then I have from Marvel and DC. Its easier to find something you like, and often want to pay even if I have already read the comic.

2. Do you think comics will ever be back in the regular stores?

Just something I miss seeing. This is kind of the reason why I stopped buying comics was it wasn't readily available to purchase a new comic each week. It being tough to find that missing issue I stopped buying comics. I know buy collections like Marvel Zombies instead if I buy any at all. Just is easier and have the whole thing there when you want to read it.

3. Will there ever be if you like x episode?

I wonder this because I think this be easy for you. Usually your better episodes come after an easy one you had fun with. Thought this might work as a good idea.Start off on something you like that is fairly well known, say Kick Ass for example. Then could go off on other things that might be similar or might enjoy relating to that. For example if you like Kick Ass you may want to cheek out Super because has the whole blood and guts bit they tend to not have in a super hero movie.

4. What past(not currently on TV) shows do you think are worth picking up?

Since you watch DVDs more then anything else do you have any shows you think are worth cheeking out? I wonder this because I have Titus [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus_%28TV_series%29] and Dinosaurs [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaurs_%28TV_series%29] up there with Freakaziod. You like Freakaziod as well, so thought you have some good ones worth cheeking out. Hell I think you could make a whole episode out that if you wanted to.

 

[Endocrom]

Mailbag ep, eh? hmmmm...

-Are you tired of zombies?

-Where are your faces from?

 

[Lieju]

Sadly at this point in history it was an assumption held by colonialists that Africa had no history.

Apart from Egypt, who MUST have been white during the ancient times, at least the ruling classes.

As for the Lost city, it might be just because I'm familiar with ancient cultures, but when I imagine a lost civilization in Africa or South America, I'm not going to assume they were white.

This is an issue with Hollywood fantasy/scifi in general, how many magical/alien races/species there are that are all white? And how many that are all black or Asian and portrayed in equally positive light?

Or even races that are mixed? Apart from having one black elf middle of somewhere where everyone else is white, which is just ridiculous.

There's still the view that

good, intelligent, civilised = blonde, white
evil, stupid, barbaric = if not black, at least dark

For example, how many pictures you have seen of Neanderthals and modern humans (straight out of Africa)? And which ones tend to be portrayed as white, and which ones dark?

If you found intricate iron lacework and precision-crafted alloys near a group of people that hadn't the foggiest clue of metallurgy, you would conclude that someone else built it. It's really not that hard of a leap. Applying racist overtones onto it does nothing good.

Yes I suppose it could have been a "black people could not have built this stuff" issue. Or maybe, just maybe, it was a much more common sense "People generally advance. So people today living in mud huts are not likely to have been from the same people who built castles. Otherwise why would they have stopped building castles and started living in mud huts?" mindset...

True, but it becomes kinda racist if you assume it must have been some white people. (Or people of you chosen ethnicity) Even if that's not the most likely answer.

Oh and the whole "monkey is always a slander against black people" thing can go fuck right off. Look at my name, look at the last name... Yeah. Go die in a fire ya whiney jackanapes.

It is? I didn't know that. But who said it was? Did someone bring it up here? Because it sounds like you just want to get offended at something you are imagining someone is saying.

 

[BreakdownBoy]

The history of Zimbabwe is very interesting, three prominant tribes are said to have originated from Zim, the Shona, Matabele and the Zulus. It is said that these three were all one tribe but got split up. The Shona trib and Matabele are still in Zim and while part of the MAtabele is in South Africa. The Zulu's moved to the east coast of South Africa.

All three of these tribes had a very violant/ warrior orientated culture (young men had to kill an enemy before they could choose a wife), I would not think it far fetched that they arrived in Zim with their vast heards of cattle and destroyed the more advanced African culture that built those ruiens.

 

[blackrave]

Well there might be some cities that were built by ancient colonizing forces (romans, greeks, egyptians, etc.)
Some of the ruins might be also inspired by buildings of invaders
Were they all built by or inspired by ancient civilizations? Hell no!
There are too many ruins in Africa. So africans can build heavy buildings, it isn't always necessary, but they can.
BUT one proof that those were built by extinct civilizations- lack of fresh ruins or similar functioning buildings.
Yes, most of them were people with black skin color, and there might be descendants of those living in Africa now, but cultures that built those are extinct for sure.
Or at least they are hiding well.

 

[Treefingers]

I'm not sure I buy that those same adventures in racism bleeds into our own modern perspective of exploring lost civilizations.

Are you familiar with the name Edward Said or the term 'Orientalism' ?

If not, I suggest you look it up.

 

[squash1405]

the difference between The Spanish explorers of South America, who knew about the great civilisations of the Incas and Aztecs, and the 19th century European explorers of Africa, is the philosophical theories in vogue at the time.

In the 19th century, the Enlightenment idea of human progress led to the view that Europeans were more advanced and Africans, etc. were backwards. Charles Darwin's theory of evolution, with its racist implications, added to that. The idea that history is progress meant that Europeans of the time could not really conceive of the idea of cultures regressing, getting less complex or losing cultural and technological knowledge.

 

[The Human Torch]

Whenever I played Tomb Raider games, I never thought that the ruins you explore were in South-Africa. South-America and Asia were my preferred locations (in thought).

Or is it racist to NOT think that South-Africa can have any ruins/lost cities?
I am so confuzzled.

 

[Ramzal]

Oy friggen vey. Okay, people. You want racism to disappear? Stop talking about it. Stop acknowledging it. The problem is outwardly identifying people by their skin tones to draw a line in difference. Once we stop calling each other white or black, that's when racism will go away. In the mean time, constantly shining a light on it, talking about it in times that aren't called for just keeping the buggy man alive.