The Big Picture: Relics
- Thread starter MovieBob
- Start date
Recommended Videos
I suppose the point of the episode was pretty good overall, but the example was terrible.
You said " Lost City- what do you think of?"
You said my answer was: "Africa- Because of Indiana Jones, Tomb Raider, and Tarzan among others, all take place in either Africa, or places like Africa, and that's racist because way back in the day people were surprised and mystified to find ruins of cities in Africa" Paraphrased of course.
The reality is, I immediately thought of South America, Asia, and the Middle East. In fact, Africa is pretty far down on the list. The argument would then be, "Why didn't I think of Africa, isn't that racist?" And the whole damn thing just gets worse after that.
But, before jumping into that, I'd like to address a couple of things first. For the most part Indiana Jones doesn't take place in Africa, I realize that the Lost Ark was found in Egypt, but aside from that he doesn't spend much time there. Tomb Raider is the same, there is a map on wikipedia that shows places where Lara Croft has been in the games, most of them outside of Africa. You used Tarzan as an example of the Africa lost city concept, congrats that's valid. . . and very old. Counterpoint: The Jungle Book- Lost City, not in Africa, very old.
To return to the "Why not Africa?" mention. Quite frankly, outside of Egypt, Africa doesn't have any mysterious ruins. Not compared to Asia and South America anyway. Sure, as stated in the video, "ruins like these are found all over the place" and that's very true. It's also true that in terms of sociaties mastering complex buildings and math before their "time", nobody in Africa holds a candle to the Asians, South Americans, and Middle Easteners, with the exception of Egypt.
My point is, this whole episode was a strawman argument. Pity, when there are so many good examples of modern day, unrealized, and indvertant racism.
P.S. Bob, when you say "places like Africa" when refering to Asia and South America. . . that's racist. lol
You said " Lost City- what do you think of?"
You said my answer was: "Africa- Because of Indiana Jones, Tomb Raider, and Tarzan among others, all take place in either Africa, or places like Africa, and that's racist because way back in the day people were surprised and mystified to find ruins of cities in Africa" Paraphrased of course.
The reality is, I immediately thought of South America, Asia, and the Middle East. In fact, Africa is pretty far down on the list. The argument would then be, "Why didn't I think of Africa, isn't that racist?" And the whole damn thing just gets worse after that.
But, before jumping into that, I'd like to address a couple of things first. For the most part Indiana Jones doesn't take place in Africa, I realize that the Lost Ark was found in Egypt, but aside from that he doesn't spend much time there. Tomb Raider is the same, there is a map on wikipedia that shows places where Lara Croft has been in the games, most of them outside of Africa. You used Tarzan as an example of the Africa lost city concept, congrats that's valid. . . and very old. Counterpoint: The Jungle Book- Lost City, not in Africa, very old.
To return to the "Why not Africa?" mention. Quite frankly, outside of Egypt, Africa doesn't have any mysterious ruins. Not compared to Asia and South America anyway. Sure, as stated in the video, "ruins like these are found all over the place" and that's very true. It's also true that in terms of sociaties mastering complex buildings and math before their "time", nobody in Africa holds a candle to the Asians, South Americans, and Middle Easteners, with the exception of Egypt.
My point is, this whole episode was a strawman argument. Pity, when there are so many good examples of modern day, unrealized, and indvertant racism.
P.S. Bob, when you say "places like Africa" when refering to Asia and South America. . . that's racist. lol
Question: why do Video Game Movies always fail, and what do you think needs to be done to get them over.
Cool. Another big advantage Eurasian cultures have is their geographic location. According to economist Charles Wheelan, equatorial nations (particularly much of Africa) had the disadvantage of a harsher climate, with scaulding dry seasons and torrential wet seasons. This meant that tropical diseases were far more common, whilst soil quality was often poor. Thus, famine and plagues would constantly hamper attempts at advancement.stueymon said:
This also had knock on effects: Climate often has a big influence on how Colonists (the guys with the most advanced technology) behave in any given region. The more inhospitable, the lesser chance of colonists attempting to develop proper settlements. In places like Africa (and to a lesser extent, India) colonists focussed more on stripping as much resources as possible, without bothering to attempt any long term plans for sustainability. In more hospitable climates like the Americas, Europeans found it easier to settle for the long term. The upshot of this is that the locals in harsher climates get their precious resources stolen, whilst the ones in accommodating climates get completely replaced, leaving a developed, advanced civilisation in their stead.
This still is a huge problem that continues to hold back African countries (along with the many others). A severe lack of drug research on tropical diseases means that this is unlikely to change any time soon.
I hadn't heard of them before, so thank you for sharing that bit of interesting info with us.maninahat said:
However, the wiki article straight up starts out with:
Which, given the geography of the two regions just makes sense. It's impressive enough all on its own, no need to exaggerate it.
Very well done. Great episode. I confess to have never considered the trope of 'The Lost City'. I have definitely learned something new and insightful today.
Since lots of people are claiming they thought of the Mayans first, in a vain attempt to prove they're not racist, I might as well say Angkor if the first place I think of as a lost city. Its a terrific ruin, and just first image that jumps to my mind. It deserves some love too. Ah, there's something about stone buildings being swallowed up by juggle that is just cool anywhere, I doubt this concept will ever fade.
It is easy, and to be honest encouraging, that people today have a hard time thinking certain bad ideas were so universally accepted in the foundation of a lot of our tropes. Sure we can rationalize other reasons for these conclusions than straight up racism, but that would be ignoring the forest while trying to depute the existence of the trees.
Just take Piltdown Man, and obvious forgery that was originally ignore as such at the time by those who should have known better because it supported the argument that humanity emerged from Britain. Which means accepted science at the time told people that ancient civilizations were all white, thus the notion of lost white cities in Africa was not such a stupid idea back then. Still, however the idea happen, racism help shape it, as it influence so many things it was impossible for it not to have played some hand in it.
It is easy, and to be honest encouraging, that people today have a hard time thinking certain bad ideas were so universally accepted in the foundation of a lot of our tropes. Sure we can rationalize other reasons for these conclusions than straight up racism, but that would be ignoring the forest while trying to depute the existence of the trees.
Just take Piltdown Man, and obvious forgery that was originally ignore as such at the time by those who should have known better because it supported the argument that humanity emerged from Britain. Which means accepted science at the time told people that ancient civilizations were all white, thus the notion of lost white cities in Africa was not such a stupid idea back then. Still, however the idea happen, racism help shape it, as it influence so many things it was impossible for it not to have played some hand in it.
So the lesson is, what? That we should just stop whining about people being racist because "that's how it's always been?" That calling a racist out for his unsubstantiated hatred for someone based on the melanin count in his skin is something we just have to put up with because it's traditional?
Consider the fact that for the past 100,000 or so years since humanity appeared, there has not been a great deal of advancement. Certain moments saw progress, but our species has advanced faster in the past century than it has in all its existence. Yes, I goddamn do expect racism to pack it in and leave. Along with sexism, persecution based on and/or because of religion, and every other backwater ideal that has held us in a state of cultural stasis for centuries. A resigned attitude to its presence is like a doctor just shrugging off a man's health issues because "that's what happens at your age."
Fuck. That. We have computers, microwaves and saran wrap. FUCKING FIX IT!
Consider the fact that for the past 100,000 or so years since humanity appeared, there has not been a great deal of advancement. Certain moments saw progress, but our species has advanced faster in the past century than it has in all its existence. Yes, I goddamn do expect racism to pack it in and leave. Along with sexism, persecution based on and/or because of religion, and every other backwater ideal that has held us in a state of cultural stasis for centuries. A resigned attitude to its presence is like a doctor just shrugging off a man's health issues because "that's what happens at your age."
Fuck. That. We have computers, microwaves and saran wrap. FUCKING FIX IT!
I always assumed Lost City mythology was South American in origin and originated from the tons of lost cities left behind when the Spanish killed of Indian tribes.
Great episode bob but to think that something so entrenched in popular culture came from such of a backwards place really sucks.
Now my question for you is with the release of Red Dead Redemption and LA Noire do you think that Rockstar has used their tech for better and more varied storytelling. Also has your 360 collection grown beyond Arkham Asylum and Bioshock.
Now my question for you is with the release of Red Dead Redemption and LA Noire do you think that Rockstar has used their tech for better and more varied storytelling. Also has your 360 collection grown beyond Arkham Asylum and Bioshock.
Excellent episode Bob, as always, and it's quite true, racism is and probably always will be part of our society in some for or another.
Now for my mailbag questions, I'll put out a few, and considering the topic of this episode, I'll make them about your own personal experiences with racism:
1. What kinds of racism have you personally been a victim of?
2. Consciously or unconsciously, what kinds of racism have you personally perpetrated?
3. For you, at what point does racism cross the line between joke and serious and starts to piss you off?
Now for my mailbag questions, I'll put out a few, and considering the topic of this episode, I'll make them about your own personal experiences with racism:
1. What kinds of racism have you personally been a victim of?
2. Consciously or unconsciously, what kinds of racism have you personally perpetrated?
3. For you, at what point does racism cross the line between joke and serious and starts to piss you off?
What Bob's saying is that racism is deeply entrenched in the society and culture of the ENTIRE human race, and that humanity has only made any real effort to get rid of racism in the past couple decades. Bob's saying it's unreasonable and unrealistic to expect every last form of racism to disappear overnight, or even in the next several decades for that matter.SnakeoilSage said:
I understand that. But it feels like the worst kind of cop out on an important issue. I don't think expecting racism to vanish overnight is a bad thing even if it isn't realistic. If we don't hold ourselves to higher standards right this very instant, then when are we going to? Like an unhealthy lifestyle: we make time for it now or we'll be forced to later.immortalfrieza said:
Don't worry man, progess to eliminate racism IS being made all the time, it's just going to take a while. However, I seriously doubt racism won't exist in some form or another anyway regardless of what we do to stop it.SnakeoilSage said:
I think you're right to a certain extent. But I think you're missing the point on why their minds were so blown.
First of all, these kinds of ruins aren't just exclusive to Africa, and even in movies/books/games that use the idea of "lost ruins" don't just use African examples. Sure the original stories that brought the inspiration for other stories were based off of them, but by now most take other locations into consideration, and inspirations built off of other inspirations means the original stories aren't as relevant as they originally were.
Second, most of these ruins they found were made of massive stones that even our cranes today wouldn't be able to lift, and usually placed very precisely on top of each other and made massive structures with them, the reason why they're still standing today is because they're so amazing. It's the same with the Mayan temples, the same with the Asian temples, even the same with the Pyramids. Besides, why were Africans at that time living in tribal villages if they could just go build a castle out of stones?
So that's not to say that the people who built them weren't black, and of course it's comical they would 'fill in the blanks' so to speak with a bunch of white people for the original stories you're referring too. I get that part. My point here is, of course the colonials were racist, but to practically say they were so amazed because they were "just racist" seems a bit far fetched. They may have been racist, but they at least had SOME intelligence.
First of all, these kinds of ruins aren't just exclusive to Africa, and even in movies/books/games that use the idea of "lost ruins" don't just use African examples. Sure the original stories that brought the inspiration for other stories were based off of them, but by now most take other locations into consideration, and inspirations built off of other inspirations means the original stories aren't as relevant as they originally were.
Second, most of these ruins they found were made of massive stones that even our cranes today wouldn't be able to lift, and usually placed very precisely on top of each other and made massive structures with them, the reason why they're still standing today is because they're so amazing. It's the same with the Mayan temples, the same with the Asian temples, even the same with the Pyramids. Besides, why were Africans at that time living in tribal villages if they could just go build a castle out of stones?
So that's not to say that the people who built them weren't black, and of course it's comical they would 'fill in the blanks' so to speak with a bunch of white people for the original stories you're referring too. I get that part. My point here is, of course the colonials were racist, but to practically say they were so amazed because they were "just racist" seems a bit far fetched. They may have been racist, but they at least had SOME intelligence.
He's not really proposing a solution. If racism is this entrenched in society, it's not something that you can just eliminate, and it's often not something that is immediately identifiable. Fighting against racism is something that will take much exploration, action, and most importantly, listening to those impacted by it*.SnakeoilSage said:
*Take the hint, users here who clog threads with the same BS every time some one makes a thread about race and/or sex in videogames.
That was good, balanced, I got the message. He didn't try to beat us over the head with his politics or moral posturing.
Bob though, isn't exactly right. The orientalists from their origins were always interested in the middle east, and aware that brown, blacks, Mongols, Chinese, Thai etc had their own cities, civilisations, economies and military power once they encountered such and examined it, or when an advanced or organised army rocked up and had a go at the cities of Christendom (Ottomans, early Islamic conquerors, Moors, etc etc). The Ottomans after all, almost took Europe a few times, and the various coalitions of Muslim non-whites did defeat the crusaders. Orientalism studies, anthropology and archaeology would come to understand that black Africans too, like their pre-Islamic neighbours, did have cities, forts, civilisations. Even after the reconquista, the port cities of north africa were clearly there and known, because they were hassling trade through piracy, and had connections to the Moorish territories that had recently been taken by Spain.
So to put it more accurately, there was a lot of racism about, but also educated whites interested in getting to the truth, and there was plenty of ways to broaden their understandings and encounter blacks in cities.
Bob though, isn't exactly right. The orientalists from their origins were always interested in the middle east, and aware that brown, blacks, Mongols, Chinese, Thai etc had their own cities, civilisations, economies and military power once they encountered such and examined it, or when an advanced or organised army rocked up and had a go at the cities of Christendom (Ottomans, early Islamic conquerors, Moors, etc etc). The Ottomans after all, almost took Europe a few times, and the various coalitions of Muslim non-whites did defeat the crusaders. Orientalism studies, anthropology and archaeology would come to understand that black Africans too, like their pre-Islamic neighbours, did have cities, forts, civilisations. Even after the reconquista, the port cities of north africa were clearly there and known, because they were hassling trade through piracy, and had connections to the Moorish territories that had recently been taken by Spain.
So to put it more accurately, there was a lot of racism about, but also educated whites interested in getting to the truth, and there was plenty of ways to broaden their understandings and encounter blacks in cities.
Here are some questions, feel free to pick and choose any you like?
Are there any movies that you reviewed in the "Escape from the Movies" where over time your opinion of them has turned an 180?
How do you feel about accusations of bias towards movies(ex:muppets)?
Are there any genres, media, or aspects of geek culture that you simply don't get or understand the appeal?
What is the difference between a good remake and a bad remake(maybe some examples)?
Do you think that this era of cinema where geek culture has such a heavy influence on the medium where we get movies like "The Avengers" or "Scott Pilgrim vs. the World" will either die down or even backfire on itself?
Are there any movies that you reviewed in the "Escape from the Movies" where over time your opinion of them has turned an 180?
How do you feel about accusations of bias towards movies(ex:muppets)?
Are there any genres, media, or aspects of geek culture that you simply don't get or understand the appeal?
What is the difference between a good remake and a bad remake(maybe some examples)?
Do you think that this era of cinema where geek culture has such a heavy influence on the medium where we get movies like "The Avengers" or "Scott Pilgrim vs. the World" will either die down or even backfire on itself?